"Bible alone," Christians

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Luvtosew said:
I repectfully disagree, the Bible is authority over the Church.
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Well I hate to rain on your parade,but you are dead wrong! Show me one verse where Jesus states The Bible will have authority over His Church?
 
Blacksword said:
A couple of points if I may. First, the Bible itself declares flatly that you are wrong. Read 1 Timothy 3:15. Also, the fact of the matter is, and you have essentially admitted this already: the very Canon of Scripture we call the Bible, what books and letters and writings were included and what weren’t, is itself a Tradition! It was decided by the Catholic Church what was inspired and necessary to have and what wasn’t. Some writings were not included that were nevertheless VERY highly regarded and are useful to Catholic scholars today. Look up the Gospel of Barnabus, the Proto-Evangelium of James, even some non-gnostic Christians had high regard for the Gospel of Thomas, Dan Brown’s ridiculous misreading of it in the Da Vinci Code notwithstanding. If only the authentic letters of Ignatius had been included as some had wanted in the Canon, we wouldn’t be having this discussion now because there’s no way to really wriggle around what he had to say about the Eucharist, the primacy of Peter, and the Church itself. In relying on the Bible you are explicitly relying on Catholic Tradition as to its authenticity and accuracy.

But secondly, and to me more interestingly, your posts seem to suggest you find Catholic traditions or beliefs expressly in conflict with Scripture. What are those, pray tell? Because I assure you, no official Catholic Tradition conflicts or contradicts Scripture. Some go farther than Scripture or describe things Scripture is silent on, but none say “x” where Scripture says “not x”.
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I have read the early writings of Barnabas, Ignitus, and no I never seen or read the Da Vinci Code, I have read many early writers, but I still say that the Bible needs to thrump everything, nothing wrong with Tradiiton as long as it is scriptural, as all Churches have some traditions, saying this is as far as I care to discuss this,

but a Christian can use the Bible alone without the other writings or traditions and learn what one must do to be saved. All I’m saying the Bible is what we have so it must be what God wanted us to have, he is in control of all, so the Bible is really all one needs. So if a Church is Bible Based there is nothing wrong with that, of course as long as they interpret the Bible without putting their own spin on it. I didn’t read anything that Ignitus said about the Euchatist referring to tranbsubstantiation, so I don’t know what you mean there. but I do think the Bible is above tradition, tradition needs to adhere to the Holy Scriptures.
 
I like how most people were illiterate for most of the middle ages on back and could barely afford a family bible let alone a personal one that you would be reading every day. Yet the bible alone group still puts up a fuss.
 
Rhuarc said:
I like how most people were illiterate for most of the middle ages on back and could barely afford a family bible let alone a personal one that you would be reading every day. Yet the bible alone group still puts up a fuss.
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Thats a very valid issue, but now days everyone has access to a Bible in their language. I’m not anti Catholic being one for my whole life, but I have a hard time with a few teachings, but the point is I do believe the Bible alone Church , Baptist or whatever, can do a wonderful job with just the Bible alone, and doing sermons, many people turn into good Christians in Protestant churches, just using the Bible.
 
Luvtosew said:
I have read the early writings of Barnabas, Ignitus, and no I never seen or read the Da Vinci Code, I have read many early writers, but I still say that the Bible needs to thrump everything, nothing wrong with Tradiiton as long as it is scriptural, as all Churches have some traditions, saying this is as far as I care to discuss this,

but a Christian can use the Bible alone without the other writings or traditions and learn what one must do to be saved. All I’m saying the Bible is what we have so it must be what God wanted us to have, he is in control of all, so the Bible is really all one needs. So if a Church is Bible Based there is nothing wrong with that, of course as long as they interpret the Bible without putting their own spin on it. I didn’t read anything that Ignitus said about the Euchatist referring to tranbsubstantiation, so I don’t know what you mean there. but I do think the Bible is above tradition, tradition needs to adhere to the Holy Scriptures.
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The Bible is not "above " tradition. The church (Catholic) can make no change to anything within it if the bible and tradition contradict it. As well, the bible says we must not forsake the traditions we have heard. One (tradition) is equating itself with the other (scripture).
 
Blacksword said:
In relying on the Bible you are explicitly relying on Catholic Tradition as to its authenticity and accuracy.

no official Catholic Tradition conflicts or contradicts Scripture. Some go farther than Scripture or describe things Scripture is silent on, but none say “x” where Scripture says “not x”.
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I think these phrases have hit the nail on the head.

The Bible is not authority over the Church, and the Church is not authority over the Bible.

The Church did not make up the Bible, and the Bible did not make up the Church.

The Church was founded by Christ in the person of the Apostles.
The Scriptures were given by the Spirit through the ministry of the Apostles.

The Bible is authority within the Church; I am within the Church; the Bible within the Church is authority OVER ME.

Get that? It’s not “me and my Bible” over “the Church.” It’s not “The Church” over “me and my Bible.” That’s the Protestant construction of the problem–and, Catholics, we debase the Tradition when we act as though Tradition wins a tug-of-war with Scripture!

No, “the Bible within the Church” has authority “over me.”

See how that works? It is I who submit to Scripture, which I read and study, and the Church, within which I read and study (and listen and pray and partake of Christ in the Eucharist and other sacraments).

Not Bible v. Church or Bible v. Tradition. The tension that I have to face is the question of MY submission. The Bible is authority over me. And the Church is authority over me. And unless God has failed to be God in His World, in His Church, the Bible and the Church together guide me into all truth, and I am blessed as they serve together as means of grace to me.
 
I get what your saying, but how is that different than a Protestant that places his beliefs on the Bible and his Church?
Since you also place your beliefs on the Church and the Bible.
 
Luvtosew said:
I get what your saying, but how is that different than a Protestant that places his beliefs on the Bible and his Church?
Since you also place your beliefs on the Church and the Bible.
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Because the others cannot be “churches” in the proper sense of the word. They lack the four markers of the Church, as they are not one, holy, universal, or apostolic. They are, essentially, faith communities where individuals with their individual interpretations of Scripture gather who generally may happen to agree with each other on most of their own individual interpretations. Lacking the four marks they lack the sacraments and thus lack the fullness of the Faith.
 
Nicea325 said:
Well I hate to rain on your parade,but you are dead wrong! Show me one verse where Jesus states The Bible will have authority over His Church?
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So what your saying is the Church has authority over the written word of God?
Don’t worrry your not raining on a parade.😃
 
Luvtosew said:
So what your saying is the Church has authority over the written word of God?
Don’t worrry your not raining on a parade.😃
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First of all, explain how you separate God’s Word from His Mystical Body the Church? And where does God say the Word of God is binded to **written words only **and it is the final authority?
 
Blacksword said:
Because the others cannot be “churches” in the proper sense of the word. They lack the four markers of the Church, as they are not one, holy, universal, or apostolic. They are, essentially, faith communities where individuals with their individual interpretations of Scripture gather who generally may happen to agree with each other on most of their own individual interpretations. Lacking the four marks they lack the sacraments and thus lack the fullness of the Faith.
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I know what your saying, but I’ll let you be the one to tell them they are not Churches,I dont think they see it that way, I just don’t want to take sides here, but I do believe Bible alone Churches can make Good God fearing Chrisitans as well as the CC. 😉
 
Luvtosew said:
I know what your saying, but I’ll let you be the one to tell them they are not Churches,I dont think they see it that way, I just don’t want to take sides here, but I do believe Bible alone Churches can make Good God fearing Chrisitans as well as the CC. 😉
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If they are Bible-Alone Christians,then why do they belong to any church? I thought the Bible-Alone is sufficient?
 
Nicea325 said:
First of all, explain how you separate God’s Word from His Mystical Body the Church? And where does God say the Word of God is binded to **written words only **and it is the final authority?
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Why don’t you show me where God says the Church is the authority,and remember Christ started the Catholic Church , the universal Christian Church, not the RC church.
 
Luvtosew said:
Why don’t you show me where God says the Church is the authority,and remember Christ started the Catholic Church , the universal Christian Church, not the RC church.
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Once you answer my question first. Roman is a merely one rite out of many. The church was always Catholic.

Show me one verse where Jesus states the Bible (written Word) will have authority over His Church?
 
Nicea325 said:
Once you answer my question first. Roman is a merely one rite out of many. The church was always Catholic.

Show me one verse where Jesus states the Bible (written Word) will have authority over His Church?
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I can’t think of one right now, but God gave us the Bible so thats what we have. Everything in it was wrote by 100 ad.
 
Luvtosew said:
Why don’t you show me where God says the Church is the authority,and remember Christ started the Catholic Church , the universal Christian Church, not the RC church.
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The Roman Catholic Church is not the only Catholic Church with Apostolic Succession but it IS the only Catholic Church with Peter’s Primacy. Not that the Church divides itself up by a hierarchy but if you were to make that claim as you did above the Roman Catholic Church would certainly best fit the Church founded on Peter by Christ our Lord.
 
Luvtosew said:
I have read the early writings of Barnabas, Ignitus, and no I never seen or read the Da Vinci Code, I have read many early writers, but I still say that the Bible needs to thrump everything, nothing wrong with Tradiiton as long as it is scriptural, as all Churches have some traditions, saying this is as far as I care to discuss this,

but a Christian can use the Bible alone without the other writings or traditions and learn what one must do to be saved. All I’m saying the Bible is what we have so it must be what God wanted us to have, he is in control of all, so the Bible is really all one needs. So if a Church is Bible Based there is nothing wrong with that, of course as long as they interpret the Bible without putting their own spin on it. I didn’t read anything that Ignitus said about the Euchatist referring to tranbsubstantiation, so I don’t know what you mean there. but I do think the Bible is above tradition, tradition needs to adhere to the Holy Scriptures.
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Thought I’d provide you something on St. Ignatius and what he said about the Eucharist and the Real Presence by the way, since in your readings you evidently missed it.

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ…and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our savior Jesus Christ…”. Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6-7.

“I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ…”. Letter to the Romans 7. He clearly and roundly affirmed that the bread and wine are the literal body and blood of Christ. As did St. Justin Martyr, Origen, St. Clement, St. Augustine, and all the early fathers.
 
Luvtosew said:
Why don’t you show me where God says the Church is the authority,and remember Christ started the Catholic Church , the universal Christian Church, not the RC church.
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Sure, 1 Timothy 3:15.👍
 
LegoGE1947 said:
The Catholic Church not only :thumbsup:believes the bible – they WROTE it! And decided which writings belong in it!
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The Catholic Church wrote the Bible? That’s a new one to me. And remember, I gave my opinion. I’ve read lots of threads, not just on Non-Catholic religions, but also the Sacred Scripture and Tradional Catholic threads. My oberservation is that some (to be fair) disregard the Bible, or have very little understanding of it. If it’s the Deposit of Faith, and since the CC “wrote it”, then by all means, Catholics should know the Bible better than anyone. My whole point isn’t about Sola Scriptura or Sola Ecclesia, but rather a combination of both.
 
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