Bible Alone?

[frangiuliano115]

If I have faith, am justified and do many works of charity, but I become tired and do not persevere, and somewhere along the way I start turning a blind eye to my brother in need. Could I lose my justification for a lack of works of charity?

You’re asking JonC so I defer to him.

Just want to say that we’re getting mixed up here between:
Justification and Sanctification.

The only way you can lose justification is by abandoning God.
Sanctification is an ongoing process.

I’m sure he’ll explain more.

Fran

 

[Duane1966]

You’re asking JonC so I defer to him.

Just want to say that we’re getting mixed up here between:
Justification and Sanctification.

The only way you can lose justification is by abandoning God.
Sanctification is an ongoing process.

I’m sure he’ll explain more.

Fran

Well Fran, I am not getting anything mixed up. The Catholic Church has clearly taught that justification is a process, just read the Council of Trent.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Well Fran, I am not getting anything mixed up. The Catholic Church has clearly taught that justification is a process, just read the Council of Trent.

Would the Catechism of the Catholic Church satisfy you?

---

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

(God) gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature… For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

One of Three

 

[frangiuliano115]

Two of Three

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification… But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Three of Three

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. the soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. the promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’”

---

You’ll note in no. 2000 that sanctifying grace can be habitual or actual. Habitual grace is given as a DISPOSITION to live and act in keeping with God’s call. That means that it is ongoing. Whereas Justification refers more to our salvation as a free gift offered by God’s grace.

Also, notice 1990 and 1991 for justification. Does this seem to be ongoing to you or a one time gift to us of God’s grace for our acceptance into His family?

Fran

 

[JonNC]

If I have faith, am justified and do many works of charity, but I become tired and do not persevere, and somewhere along the way I start turning a blind eye to my brother in need. Could I lose my justification for a lack of works of charity?

Hi Duane,
From the Formula of Concord

Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

So, yes, because it is a rejection of grace.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I was under the impression that sola fide meant faith alone. Is this correct?

Correct. It means that we access justification only by faith.

Jon

 

[Duane1966]

Correct. It means that we access justification only by faith.

Jon

But to continue in justification, is that only by faith?

 

[Duane1966]

Would the Catechism of the Catholic Church satisfy you?

Yes.

---

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

Also, notice 1990 and 1991 for justification. Does this seem to be ongoing to you or a one time gift to us of God’s grace for our acceptance into His family?

Ongoing. And that is the way the Catholic Church has always understood it. Notice the part in bold. That is why we go to confession. When we commit mortal sin, we are not justified in God’s eyes. But what about the person who commits many venial sins, but slowly changes his heart and commits less and less? As he continues to walk in committing less sin, he quite clearly is more just than at the beginning. So quite clearly it is ongoing. Justification AND sanctification are ongoing.

Are you saying God only offers forgiveness once, that He only pours faith, hope, and charity once, or does God constantly pour that into our hearts allowing us to grow in justification and sanctification?

From Dave Armstrong’s blog.

God knows who the elect are; we do not. So we strive, with Paul, to make sure we are qualified in the end. Since Scripture teaches that justification is ongoing, who will be saved can only be determined at death, by God,…Works are not excluded from the business of justification. So, accordingly, Abraham was justified in Gen 12, by both faith and obedience (Heb 11:8: “By faith Abraham obeyed . . . “). In Gen 15:6, he believed God’s promise that he would have many descendants. This was meritorious, and so he was justified again, according to Paul. So the writer of Hebrews says he was justified by obedient works in Gen 12; Paul says he was justified by further faith in Gen 15, and James says he was justified by works in Gen 22.

Conclusion (i.e., assuming both the laws of logic and the inspiration of the Scriptures): justification is ongoing and involves both faith and works.

Will the Council of Trent satisfy you?

CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED

Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works,** increase in that justice received** through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]

This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
“Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”[57]

See, Trent is clearly teaching that justification is a process.

to be continued…

 

[Duane1966]

part II.

From Jimmy Akin’s website on Trent:

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING
James Akin
[Note: To understand the Biblical basis of some of the concepts in this paper, such as the fact that salvation is a process, see the paper “Salvation Past, Present, and Future.”]

The key document giving the Church’s teaching on this subject is known as the Decree On Justification from the Council of Trent (1545-1564). This document contains a set of sixteen short, paragraph-long “chapters,” followed by a series of canons excommunicating the teachers of false views.

The first two chapters deal with fallen man’s need for justification and the provision that God has made for fulfilling this need. Then there is a group of these chapters (ch. 3-9) that deal with the initial justification which the believer receives when he first becomes a Christian. **Then the Council turns its attention to the subsequent *process of justification ***which starts in the Christian’s life (ch. 10-11). Then it turns to the possibility of failing to persevere in God’s grace, of losing one’s justification, and of subsequently regaining it (ch. 12-15). And finally, it takes up the issue of how our acts of love will be rewarded in heaven, which deals (though the fathers of Trent do not says so) with our final justification on the Last Day.

So the Catholic Church, like the Bible and like some Protestants, teaches that justification is a process.** It is something that begins when we first become a Christian, which continues in our life, and which will be completed when we stand before God at the end of our life and on the last day.

We can divide up this process into a number of stages: first, there is an initial justification which occurs at conversion; second, there is a progressive justification which occurs as a person grows in righteousness; and lastly there is a final justification which occurs on the last day. There is also the possibility of a loss of justification and a subsequent re-justification which occurs when a believer returns to the faith. We will examine each of these four aspects of justification in subsequent chapters. For now, let it be noted that justification, like salvation in general, has past, present, and future dimensions.

 

[Duane1966]

So, yes, because it is a rejection of grace.

Jon

If you cannot state that a person can remain justified if they purposefully reject works of charity, then I do not see how works of charity cannot play a part in our remaining and growing in justification. And if they play a part, then you cannot say we are justified by faith alone, because remaining in justification (in the normal course of events) hinges on works of charity.

 

[DeusExMachina]

If you cannot state that a person can remain justified if they purposefully reject works of charity, then I do not see how works of charity cannot play a part in our remaining and growing in justification. And if they play a part, then you cannot say we are justified by faith alone, because remaining in justification (in the normal course of events) hinges on works of charity.

^ This is what I was referring to, Jon

 

[guanophore]

"Duane1966:

Well Fran, I am not getting anything mixed up. The Catholic Church has clearly taught that justification is a process, just read the Council of Trent.

Would the Catechism of the Catholic Church satisfy you?

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

One of Three

Fran, it seems like you are talking about initial justification, while Duane is talking about the process of becoming righteous before God (sanctification).

Three of Three

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. the soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. the promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’”

You’ll note in no. 2000 that sanctifying grace can be habitual or actual. Habitual grace is given as a DISPOSITION to live and act in keeping with God’s call. That means that it is ongoing. Whereas Justification refers more to our salvation as a free gift offered by God’s grace.

Also, notice 1990 and 1991 for justification. Does this seem to be ongoing to you or a one time gift to us of God’s grace for our acceptance into His family?

Fran

The CC teaches that there are some aspects of being saved that have already occurred (baptism), some that are in process, and some that will not occur till the end of this life. So we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved.

It might be easier to understand justification as the state of grace, or of being in right relationship with God. We are initially justified immediately in baptism, then at some point we are to become responsible for maintaining the vows made at our baptism.

Justification is also ongoing, in the sense that we can enter and leave a right relationship with God. Falling from grace does not “undo” the justification that occurred at baptism, but the disposition of sanctification cannot occur when we are not in right relationship with God.

 

[guanophore]

If I have faith, am justified and do many works of charity, but I become tired and do not persevere, and somewhere along the way I start turning a blind eye to my brother in need. Could I lose my justification for a lack of works of charity?

Saving faith is faith that works. If the faith is not producing fruit, it has become a dead faith. Doing the good works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them, keeps us in His grace. Eventually, if we keep rejecting His grace, we will no longer be in right relationship with him.

But to continue in justification, is that only by faith?

Catholics do not use the terms “faith alone” because it is contrary to the Teaching of the Apostles, who taught that faith is always accompanied by love and hope.

Yes, we continue in justification (sanctification) by faith, but it is a certain quality of faith. It is faith that works, produces fruit, and works itself out in love.

Ongoing. And that is the way the Catholic Church has always understood it. Notice the part in bold. That is why we go to confession. When we commit mortal sin, we are not justified in God’s eyes. But what about the person who commits many venial sins, but slowly changes his heart and commits less and less? As he continues to walk in committing less sin, he quite clearly is more just than at the beginning. So quite clearly it is ongoing. Justification AND sanctification are ongoing.

Both things are true, Duane. There is a once for all event that occurs in Baptism that is permanent.

Are you saying God only offers forgiveness once,

The events that occur in baptism are specific to that event.

That He only pours faith, hope, and charity once, or does God constantly pour that into our hearts allowing us to grow in justification and sanctification?

Both things are true.

See, Trent is clearly teaching that justification is a process.

to be continued…

Trent is also teaching that initial justification is something that happens once for all.

I think that Fran is talking about initial justification, what happens at baptism. It seems you are talking about sanctification (ongoing justification). The two go together.

If you cannot state that a person can remain justified if they purposefully reject works of charity, then I do not see how works of charity cannot play a part in our remaining and growing in justification.

I agree. We stand to fall from grace when we purposefully reject the grace of God. Scripture is clear that we need to persevere in doing good works.

 And if they play a part, then you cannot say we are justified by faith alone, because remaining in justification (in the normal course of events) hinges on works of charity.

No, Duane. You have changed the basic premise, and as a result, arrived at a false conclusion.

We are justified by faith alone in baptism. Remaining in justification/sanctification does NOT HINGE ON WORKS! It hinges of God’s grace, just like initial justification. We are saved by grace, through faith. The works of charity are a natural outcome of saving grace. They occur through saving faith, which is faith that works.

 

[JonNC]

If you cannot state that a person can remain justified if they purposefully reject works of charity, then I do not see how works of charity cannot play a part in our remaining and growing in justification. And if they play a part, then you cannot say we are justified by faith alone, because remaining in justification (in the normal course of events) hinges on works of charity.

As the statement from the confessions says, one cannot maintain faith, if one is in repeated, unrepentant sin. Failure to do what we are called to do is sin.

Jon

 

[Duane1966]

Saving faith is faith that works. If the faith is not producing fruit, it has become a dead faith. Doing the good works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them, keeps us in His grace. Eventually, if we keep rejecting His grace, we will no longer be in right relationship with him.

Catholics do not use the terms “faith alone” because it is contrary to the Teaching of the Apostles, who taught that faith is always accompanied by love and hope.

Yes, we continue in justification (sanctification) by faith, but it is a certain quality of faith. It is faith that works, produces fruit, and works itself out in love.

Both things are true, Duane. There is a once for all event that occurs in Baptism that is permanent.

The events that occur in baptism are specific to that event.

Both things are true.

Trent is also teaching that initial justification is something that happens once for all.

I think that Fran is talking about initial justification, what happens at baptism. It seems you are talking about sanctification (ongoing justification). The two go together.

I agree. We stand to fall from grace when we purposefully reject the grace of God. Scripture is clear that we need to persevere in doing good works.

No, Duane. You have changed the basic premise, and as a result, arrived at a false conclusion.

We are justified by faith alone in baptism. Remaining in justification/sanctification does NOT HINGE ON WORKS! It hinges of God’s grace, just like initial justification. We are saved by grace, through faith. The works of charity are a natural outcome of saving grace. They occur through saving faith, which is faith that works.

Guanophore, if every time someone talks about justification, if they are really talking about initial justification, then they should say initial justification.

Guanophore, every good thing we do is a result of grace, that is a given. Buuuuut, James is quite clear marrying works to faith and justification. And he is not talking about sanctification. We know this because he specifically uses the Greek word for justification, if he meant sanctification, he would have used the Greek word for sanctification, one which Paul uses numerous times. And James is clearly not talking about initial justification.

Guanophore, I did not say that works of charity are the only hinge, but an essential hinge. And if works play a part in our salvation, then they are a hinge. Nothing I said was false, or contradicted the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. XVI
Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: “Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name”; and “Do not lose confidence, which hath a great reward.” Hence,** to those who work well “unto the end” and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered**, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.

How did I change the basic premise? Are you saying that in the course of our lives (assuming we do not die immediately after coming to faith), we can remain being in a state of justification by not doing works of charity? Because my premise the whole time, is that we will not remain justified, without works of charity. And if you agree that works are essential, then they must be a hinge.

By the way, of course Trent teaches that initial justification happens once. There can only be an initial anything once. I would be worried if they taught it happens more than once.

 

[frangiuliano115]

FOR DUANE 1966

I’ve started posting copied things from the CCC and the bible and other docs, but I see that this does no good either.

It’s really difficult for me to understand how we could b e reading the same piece of paper and come up with two different ideas.

Of course it’s all in the wording. Here’s the thing:

I, to some poster’s chagrin, teach the catholic faith to adults.

So:

You have a group of people in front of you. The discussion turns to
Justification
Sanctification

They want to know the difference - since there are two terms, there must be a difference.

To me it seems as though you use the two terms interchangeably. Then why have two different words?

How would YOU explain the difference?

Fran

Why do I insist? Because I don’t have anything else to do? No. Because understanding the difference helps one in their walk in the faith we share and there are others reading along who might care.

BTW, the idea of " was saved, are being, and will be saved " would be:
justification
sanctification
glorification
You’re reply could touch on all 3 but I’d just be interested in the difference between the first two.

 

[zoecruz]

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Word of God is the final rule of authority. No pope no priest has any authority over the God-breathed eternal Word of God.

 

[JonNC]

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Word of God is the final rule of authority. No pope no priest has any authority over the God-breathed eternal Word of God.

True, but if one is true to the practice of sola scriptura, one recognizes that in scripture, Christ gives teaching authority to the Church. It is the Church, not the individual, who determines doctrine. That’s not authority over scripture, but authority to determine doctrine from it.

Jon

 

[frangiuliano115]

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Word of God is the final rule of authority. No pope no priest has any authority over the God-breathed eternal Word of God.

JonNC has correctly answered.

I’d just like to add the following.

In your religious affiliation you write “protestant”. That could mean different things.

You say no pope or priest has authority over and above the scripture.

Think of it this way: Let’s say you belong to a Nazarene church. The church has a set of doctrine to which you pretty much have to adhere to be considered a Nazarene. There’ an authority (maybe in Ohio?) that interprets scripture for the church as a whole. How they interpret Mathew 16:18 is going to be different from how the catholic church interprets it. So you’re going to tend to believe what YOUR church teaches you and what they hold as doctrine.

Do you have no respect for your pastor? It’s the same thing except catholics have priests, bishops and a pope. Now the priest idea could bring up problems if we go back to the old testament and combine it with the New Covenant. But it’s a continuation of the “laying on of hands” if you can understand it that way.

Bishops always existed - and as far as the Pople, the first one wan’t declared till, about 350 or so, but we want to go back and start calling the “leaders” of the church “Pope” going back all the way to Peter. I don’t really have a problem with this - although not all understand it. Think of it as the tracing back of authority more than calling Peter the first “Pope”.

So really, YOU have a Pope too! If you can think of it in that way.

I must say that I don’t care for non-denominational churches and I don’t really like SOLO scriptura, although God does speak to us individually using His Word.

Fran