Bible and false scholarship

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Such fantasising is quite false – no faithful Catholic, or Christian, would subscribe to such obvious error – no scholarship of any kind there. Why should we have anyone posing as “Catholic”, spouting irresponsible falsehoods with not a skerrick of evidence?
Really? This wasn’t my spouting, it was what the Pontifical Biblical Commission (the Church’s most eminent scripture scholars) and Pope Paul VI state in the “*Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels” *which you can read online.
Not only are the facts of Jesus miracles recorded by His own Apostles who were present – Saints Matthew and John were companions of Christ, and Saints Mark and Luke lived in constant contact with His contemporaries.
These are the “traditional” authors. The Church only states that the gospels are of “apostolic origins” and makes no dogmatic claim as to the actual authors. The *Instruction *mentioned above clearly states that the gospels are not first or even second hand accounts of anything.
Even Adolf von Harnack, a rationalist historian of high repute among Rationalist and Protestants, wrote that the Synoptic Gospels were written before 70 A.D. – before the fall of Jerusalem, and accepted the tradition that St Luke derived his information on the infancy of Jesus from Mary His Mother. [Theologische Quartalsch, Tubingen 1929, IV, p 443-4].
That’s interesting but not church teaching.
 
These are the “traditional” authors. The Church only states that the gospels are of “apostolic origins” and makes no dogmatic claim as to the actual authors. The *Instruction *mentioned above clearly states that the gospels are not first or even second hand accounts of anything.
I just read it again, I don’t see any statement which claims that all authorship of the Gospels is third hand or beyond. There is a statement which admits of the oral origination – but, as it is clear from the writings of St. Luke, St. Peter preached BEFORE the gospel of Mark was written; of whom St. Paul refers to as Peter’s “son”, eg: spiritual son, convert, most likely. So I do not even see any admission in the Instruction that ALL of the gospels were written by non Apostles.

It is quite compatible, the way I read it, to believe that Matthew in fact wrote the gospel of Matthew; I will set the unproven theories of the “Johanine community” by Browne aside as well, for these are very speculative innovations that the Instruction warns *against. *And I will assert that the Instruction does not deny that John the apostle could have written the fourth gospel, and even possibly the book of Revelation (apokalypse).

Could you quote the statement that you believe backs up your point?

And are you sure you aren’t confusing the commentary on the Instruction by priests such as Fitzmeyer, et. al. with the actual words of the document?

At very least, you appear to be doing this, which is forbidden by the instruction.
“Nor should the*** impression*** be given in an argument that truths of revelation and divine traditions are being called in question.”
 
I just read it again, I don’t see any statement which claims that all authorship of the Gospels is third hand or beyond. There is a statement which admits of the oral origination – but, as it is clear from the writings of St. Luke, St. Peter preached BEFORE the gospel of Mark was written; of whom St. Paul refers to as Peter’s “son”, eg: spiritual son, convert, most likely. So I do not even see any admission in the Instruction that ALL of the gospels were written by non Apostles.
I guess I wasn’t clear - I never meant to state that any real authorship claims were made in the Instruction. The comment about “apostolic origins” actually comes from Dei Verbum.

The parts in the Instruction I was referring to which talk about the gospels not being literal eyewitness accounts include:

For the truth of the story is not at all affected by the fact that the Evangelists relate the words and deeds of the Lord in a different order, and express his sayings not literally but differently, while preserving (their) sense.

From the many things handed down they selected some things, reduced others to a synthesis, (still) others they explicated as they kept in mind the situation of the churches.

Since the meaning of a statement also depends on the sequence, the Evangelists, in passing on the words and deeds of our Saviour, explained these now in one context, now in another, depending on (their) usefulness to the readers.


I agree that there are no real authorship claims in the Intruction.
At very least, you appear to be doing this, which is forbidden by the instruction.
“Nor should the*** impression*** be given in an argument that truths of revelation and divine traditions are being called in question.”
No, I don’t see that I am doing that, especially since the truths of revelation do not include the names of the authors of the gospels. These have been loosely assigned by traditions but there is no dogmatic statement naming them.
 
I guess I wasn’t clear - I never meant to state that any real authorship claims were made in the Instruction. The comment about “apostolic origins” actually comes from Dei Verbum.
You can choose to doubt and to dissent if you want, but I will believe in the Gospel.

Peter turned and saw following them the disciple whom Jesus loved, who had lain close to his breast at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?” When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!” The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”
This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these thing; and we know that his testimony is true. John 21:20-24

By the way, did you miss the part in Dei Verbum where it says, “Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and **without error **that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.”

Since you also reference the “Instruction Concerning the Historical Truth of the Gospels”, did you forget that that document says, “But let him always be disposed to obey the magisterium of the Church, and not forget that the apostles, filled with the Holy Spirit, preached the good news, and that the Gospels were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who preserved their authors from all error.”

Just to keep repeating - “but there are no eyewitnesses” - is not much of an argument. Jesus raised the dead, healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, cast out demons, forgave sins, was crucified, died and was buried, and on the third day he arose again from the dead. This is all true whether you like it or not.
 
Was the Resurrection an actual event?
patg
The church requires us to believe that it was, so we do as a matter of faith. There is no independent attestation or evidence so as far as the historian is concerned there is no way of knowing.
And on what basis would you say they actually happened?
patg
The miracles may have actually occurred as reported or they may have been included as literary devices to tell us who Jesus was. Both interpretations are valid with the church.
However you look at it, it is ALL a matter of faith,
patg
The church states that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts….written long after the events by unknown authors….it was what the Pontifical Biblical Commission (the Church’s most eminent scripture scholars) and Pope Paul VI state in the “Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels”
patg is a prime example of those bamboozled by the Brownian-type “scholarship” which has confused many and produced the cacophony of disorder evinced above! Of course Christ’s Church never, and will never, because false, state that the Gospels are not eyewitness accounts.

Raymond Brown does oppose Bultmann’s presupposition that modern man cannot accept the idea of nature-miracles and that all of the miracles in the Gospels were, therefore, inserted later into the story of Jesus by Christian dreamers (VCBR, p. 30), but he beclouds his opposition to this false principle with his own observation that “a history studded with the miraculous is not the history we live in” (VCBR, p. 29)…” [LT133 - Regarding Father Raymond Brown's form-critical approach to the Virginal Conception of Jesus / From Constantinople to Rome: Why I did not join the Eastern Orthodox Church]](LT133 - Regarding Father Raymond Brown's form-critical approach to the Virginal Conception of Jesus / From Constantinople to Rome: Why I did not join the Eastern Orthodox Church]). [VCBR = The Virginal Conception & Bodily Resurrection of Jesus].
  1. In fact, the PBC in the 1964 Instruction warned that “There are others who have as their starting-point a wrong notion of faith, taking it that faith is indifferent to historical truth, and is indeed incompatible with it. Others practically deny a priori the historical value and character of the documents of revelation. Others finally there are who on the one hand underestimate the authority which the Apostles had as witnesses of Christ, and the office and influence which they wielded in the primitive community, whilst on the other hand they overestimate the creative capacity of the community itself. All these aberrations are not only opposed to Catholic doctrine, but are also devoid of any scientific foundation, and are foreign to the genuine principles of the historical method.
The PBC teaches that preachers should “shun what is merely newfangled or what is insufficiently proved”, and for writers, “When they narrate biblical events they are not to introduce imaginary additions at variance with the truth” and “they should keep altogether clear of the precarious fancies of innovators.”
Code:
 2) In *Divino afflante Spiritu,* after referring to Vatican I's solemn affirmation of the plenary inspiration of Scripture, Pius XII recalled the continued undermining of that doctrine which prompted his predecessor's intervention in 1893:

”Subsequently, however, certain Catholic writers dared to restrict the truth of Sacred Scripture to matters of faith and morals alone, relegating everything else, whether of a physical or historical character, to the status of “obiter dicta” which (so it was claimed) are in no way connected to the faith. But since this was opposed to [the First Vatican Council’s] solemn definition of Catholic doctrine, which insists that the biblical books, “entire and with all their parts,” are endowed with such divine authority as to enjoy freedom from all error, Our Predecessor of immortal memory Leo XIII responded in the Encyclical Letter *Providentissimus Deus *… by justly and fittingly striking down those erroneous opinions, while at the same time laying down very wise precepts and norms for the study of the Divine Books.” (My emphasis). [See LT61 - THE ENCYCLICAL SPIRITUS PARACLITUS IN ITS HISTORICAL CONTEXT - Part II].​

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger in Biblical Interpretation in Crisis, delivered in New York City on January 27, 1988: “As to the ‘scientific’ and ‘historical’ character of the historical-critical method, the Cardinal remarked: “Now, at a certain distance, the observer determines to his surprise that these interpretations, which were supposed to be so strictly scientific and purely ‘historical,’ reflect their own overriding spirit, rather than the spirit of times long ago. This insight should not lead us to skepticism about the method, but rather to an honest recognition of what its limits are, and perhaps how it might be purified.”

In his address of October 14, 2008, to the constituents of the Fourteenth General Congregation of the Synod of Bishops, Pope Benedict XVI commented on the need that critical analysis of the biblical text be thoroughly informed by the hermeneutics of faith, as called for in Dei Verbum of the Second Vatican Council. Catholic form-critics do not deny their faith; they simply do not use their faith when they are doing their form-critical thinking. Often they strive to put their form-criticism aside when they are saying their prayers, but they also often preach and think about results of this method which tend to call into question the theology that they have learned. And that is a big reason why this dualism of exegesis and theology must be overcome, in the words of Pope Benedict XVI, “for the life and the mission of the Church, for the future of faith.”
[See LT143 - Regarding Pope Benedict XVI's Address on Biblical Exegesis and Theology of 14 October 2008]
 
Mea Culpa
The correct translation of Dei Verbum 11 is found in the CCC #107:
“Since, therefore, all that the inspired authors, or sacred writers, affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture, firmly, faithfully and without error, teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the sacred Scriptures.”

Msgr George A Kelly explains in The New Biblical Theorists – Raymond E Brown and Beyond: “The Council chose not to say that only the Bible’s ‘spiritual truth’ or its ‘religious truth’ is free from error. The actual sentence of Dei Verbum says that every assertion of the sacred writers – whether it be religious or moral or scientific or historical – is free from error, because God wanted these writers to convey to us unalloyed truth for the sake of our salvation. The Council makes no distinction between ‘religious’ and ‘secular’ truths to be covered by inerrancy, nor is inerrancy to be restricted to ‘essential religious affirmations’ as Brown avers.” (p 157).
 
The parts in the Instruction I was referring to which talk about the gospels not being literal eyewitness accounts include:

For the truth of the story is not at all affected by the fact that the Evangelists relate the words and deeds of the Lord in a different order, and express his sayings not literally but differently, while preserving (their) sense.

From the many things handed down they selected some things, reduced others to a synthesis, (still) others they explicated as they kept in mind the situation of the churches.

Since the meaning of a statement also depends on the sequence, the Evangelists, in passing on the words and deeds of our Saviour, explained these now in one context, now in another, depending on (their) usefulness to the readers.
🤷 I don’t see a single thing there that has anything to do with eye-witness accounts. I could witness an event, and then truthfully tell it in a different order than it occurred without lying about the events themselves; some things can’t be re-ordered, but others can. The first sentence merely says the writers paraphrased christ – but did not change the meaning (eg: no spin ) of his words.

The second paragraph does not necessarily apply to all of the Evangelists; as it says (others) kept in mind the situation of the church. That is, they emphasized parts of Christs teaching for the sake of the people at that time, with their immediate problems from traditions handed down. eg: Luke could be one such writer.
Synthesis – is together-thesis, that is grouping of specific teachings related to one another by some theme. etc. A different method of writing than chronological, but still quite useful.

There is nothing in the third paragraph suggesting a pure non eyewitness account either. All of these things merely talk about how the authors (eyewitness or not) chose to organize the message of their Gospel. Note, an eye-witness may have also received information (tradition) from another eye-witness, in which case the Gospel is mixed with both eye-witness accounts and tradition.
I agree that there are no real authorship claims in the Intruction.
Clarify a bit; do you also agree that there are no claims of non-authorship by eye-witnesses applied to ALL gospels in the Instruction?
No, I don’t see that I am doing that, especially since the truths of revelation do not include the names of the authors of the gospels. These have been loosely assigned by traditions but there is no dogmatic statement naming them.
emphasis added.

My response:
At very least, you appear to be doing this, which is forbidden by the instruction.
“Nor should the*** impression*** be given in an argument that truths of revelation and divine traditions are being called in question.”
emphasis added.

The very name of the “Gospel of Matthew” is a divine tradition which all versions of the bible, vulgate, and others have adhered to.

Are there ANY divine traditions which state no eyewitnesses wrote the gospels?
I have seen the church fathers attribute to Matthew eye-witness status, as well as John – that is divine tradition; not Dogma, but just tradition about whom God chose as his witnesses.

Thanks for the clarification, it helped. 🙂
 
You can choose to doubt and to dissent if you want, but I will believe in the Gospel.
I never said I doubted anything and nothing I have said is dissent.
By the way, did you miss the part in Dei Verbum where it says, “Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and **without error **that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.”
No, I like that part. It states that the truths are those which apply to salvation. It also does not deny that truth can be taught without error using fiction.
Since you also reference the “Instruction Concerning the Historical Truth of the Gospels”, did you forget that that document says, “But let him always be disposed to obey the magisterium of the Church, and not forget that the apostles, filled with the Holy Spirit, preached the good news, and that the Gospels were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who preserved their authors from all error.”
I like that part too because, once again, it states that the truth is presented without error but does not restrict that truth to only being taught literalistically - it does not deny fiction as a valid vehicle for revelation.
Just to keep repeating - “but there are no eyewitnesses” - is not much of an argument. Jesus raised the dead, healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, cast out demons, forgave sins, was crucified, died and was buried, and on the third day he arose again from the dead. This is all true whether you like it or not.
Yes, it is true. But it is also a matter of faith whether you like it or not.

I have not just been repeating - “but there are no eyewitnesses”. I have consistently stated that the events you mentioned are not matters supported by historical investigation and thus are matters of faith. There is no independent attestation of the events and, of course, no consistent eyewitness testimony.
 
patg is a prime example of those bamboozled by the Brownian-type “scholarship” which has confused many and produced the cacophony of disorder evinced above!
Thank you, I am honored to be mentioned with scholars of such eminence as Raymond Brown. We have been teaching adult scripture studies based on his texts and the texts of those who have carried on after him for many years. You should also include such greats as John Meier and Ronald Witherup.
Of course Christ’s Church never, and will never, because false, state that the Gospels are not eyewitness accounts.
You must have a very different concept of what an “eyewitness account” is.

When I hear an eyewitness account of a significant and hard to believe event, I expect to hear words like " I saw…" and I especially want to hear some corroboration from other sources. I agree with Fitzmyer: “…the Biblical Commission calmly and frankly admits that what is contained in the Gospels as we have them today is not the words and deeds of Jesus in the first stage of tradition, nor even the form in which they were preached in the second stage, but only in the form compiled and edited by the Evangelists.” That doesn’t say “eyewitness accounts” to me. I also don’t see anything denying the truth.
 
The very name of the “Gospel of Matthew” is a divine tradition which all versions of the bible, vulgate, and others have adhered to.

Are there ANY divine traditions which state no eyewitnesses wrote the gospels?
I have seen the church fathers attribute to Matthew eye-witness status, as well as John – that is divine tradition; not Dogma, but just tradition about whom God chose as his witnesses.
What exactly is a “divine tradition”? I’ve heard the Church speak of bit “T” Traditions and little “t” traditions… If the authorship is not dogmatically defined then it must just be a “tradition”,
 
What exactly is a “divine tradition”? I’ve heard the Church speak of bit “T” Traditions and little “t” traditions… If the authorship is not dogmatically defined then it must just be a “tradition”,
That is incorrect. The immaculate conception was not just tradition before it was dogmatically defined. Little (t) – in order for it to be a big (T) had to have been held BEFORE the dogmatic definition.

Historically, one can trace the belief of Matthew writing his own Gospel back to the earliest church fathers, and I have never even heard of dissent on this point at any time in early church history. (I am open to correction as I am not omniscient.).

The first dissent I am aware of comes from modern/post-modern historical-critical scholarship. There is a sensus fideii – sense of the faithful – which can reasonably be asserted to Matthew’s authorship up to all times before historical critical scholarship. This does not make historical critical scholarship wrong, in and of itself, but it does point to the novely and present uncertainty of the results of such scolarship – which the instruction is concerned with in teaching environments. A CCD class for children would be a highly inappropriate place to use such scholarship – a bible study, depending on the members and their in-ability to accept multiple possibile theories may also be inappropriate in my opinion; though I admit bible studies using/advancing historical critical scholarship can be appropriate given qualified members.

Dogma, and especially ex cathedra statements, generally do not come in to being without an erroneous scholarly idea becoming publicly contentious. The controversy can last for quite a long time (centuries) before a dogmatic proclamation officially suppresses the scholarship in error.

The all male priesthood has never DOGMATICALLY been defined, but as pope John Paul pointed out – IT DOESN’T NEED TO BE.

At least with respect to the immaculate conception one can find dissent in the early church fathers (Aquinas,etc. who was double minded on the subject) – can you do the same with the authorship of the Gospel of Matthew ?

If not, my statement still stands – you are giving the appearance of calling a divine tradition into question. It is for the undiscerning which the church wishes to protect that such a superficial judgement of logic is warrented.

The scholarship of authors such as Raymond E. Brown and Fitzmeyer are dubious and definitely can be shown to have novelty which is in fact fallacious in places – even by their own standards and methods.

I have the Jerome Commentary, and can easily point out ( using their own methods and statements ) a few errors that are BASIC building blocks of their other arguments. The more unproven ideas a conclusion rests on, the higher the likelihood of error. When the base idea is itself fallacious – provably – than all logic built on that block of logic is unsound and needs to be totally re-thought.

I would hold up as a prime example, the dating of the Gospels taking into account the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD as a decisive reason, eg: such that Brown and Fitzmeyer regularly use this fallacious argument as the basis of later and more complicated arguments. Accepting their method (which the instruction warns against), I can still show it to be HIGHLY UNCERTAIN and pointing to a date as early as ~30’s AD. eg: that knowledge of the immanence of the fall was known NON-MIRACULOUSLY in times before 70AD, such that 70AD is not an earliest date for the writing of Gospels containing reference to it by NON-MIRACULOUS methods.

As a secondary example, I would hold certain proofs of St. Luke being a proselyte/convert (which I don’t dispute he LIKELY is) are also laugably fallacious
(though convincing to the un-studied, and especially those who have not read and thouroughly contemplated the Gospels ON THEIR OWN for the sake of FAMILIARITY with the material, not it’s interpretation, before using an uncertain guide.) Experience allows one to more easily see the logical connections which historical critical scholarship occasionally misses, and therefore fallaciously argues without reference to.

My basic contention is this, Fitzmeyer and Brown have not sufficiently tested their basic premises to have ONLY theories which are even probable, let alone right by virtue of correct reasoning. It is the chain of reasoning of one unstable argument upon another which makes these authors very unreliable – and their results mixed (half true).

–Andrew.

etc.
 
What exactly is a “divine tradition”? I’ve heard the Church speak of bit “T” Traditions and little “t” traditions… If the authorship is not dogmatically defined then it must just be a “tradition”,
I patg , have never heard of divine tradition-but Apostolic I have heard of.

Not all disagreements are “dissent” -not all disagreements are disloyalty.People who some have named as “disloyal” or “dissenters” have never been labelled so by the Church.The Church’s thoughts are what counts- the churches reaction to such people is what is important. It means nothing if an individual(I don’t care if he’s a priest or not) disagrees with another scholar or if an individual dislikes another scholars interpretation of the scripture-it is meaningless.The Church determines(no one else) who and what a dissent is-who is to be censured, corrected etc.Ersatz condemnation is to no avail.Proves nothing -solves nothing.It is just an opinion and not a reality of Church teaching- which must be adhered to… Calling patg names like"modernist" or “dissenter” is like calling someone a “Commie” in the old days. It’s a ubiquitous term that is used against anyone who disagrees with another person’s viewpoint.It’s obnoxious and self serving and self congratulatory.
 
What exactly is a “divine tradition”? I’ve heard the Church speak of bit “T” Traditions and little “t” traditions… If the authorship is not dogmatically defined then it must just be a “tradition”,
There are only Church traditions, no divine traditions. What many call Capital “T” Traditions are those Church Traditions that are of the unchanging Apostolic Deposit of Faith. So for example Church Infallibility is a big “T” tradition. They are rooted in the Deposit of Faith bequeathed to us by the Apostles. Little “t” traditions are things like the College of Cardinals electing the Pope.
 
patg
The church states that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts.
I am honored to be mentioned with scholars of such eminence as Raymond Brown. We have been teaching adult scripture studies based on his texts and the texts of those who have carried on after him for many years……When I hear an eyewitness account of a significant and hard to believe event, I expect to hear words like " I saw…"
That is not only naïve; it illustrates lack of scholarship as the result of slavishly following the erroneous assumptions of the historical-critical deconstructionists – disorder and confusion. No wonder some Catholics don’t seem to know what to believe.

Pope Benedict XVI affirms the need that critical analysis of the biblical text be thoroughly informed by the hermeneutics of faith, as called for in Dei Verbum, and this dualism of exegesis and theology must be overcome “for the life and the mission of the Church, for the future of faith.”

The facts are that the 1964 Magisterial *Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels *from the PBC teaches concerning the Apostles:
“However there is no reason to deny the fact that the apostles, in telling their listeners about our Lord’s deeds and words, utilized the fuller understanding which they had acquired from the glorious events of Christ’s life14 and the guidance of, the Spirit of truth.15 After His resurrection Jesus Himself "interpreted to them"16 His own words and those of the Old Testament.17 In a similar manner they explained His deeds and words according to the needs of their audience.

“Devoting themselves, ‘to the ministry of the word,’18 they set about preaching, and utilized the type of presentation appropriate to their purpose and the mentality of their listeners. They were debtors19 to Greeks and to foreigners, to learned and unlearned."20 Indeed we can single out the following categories in the preaching of Christ’s heralds: catechetical formulas, narrative reports, eyewitness accounts, hymns, doxologies, prayers, and similar literary genres commonly found in Sacred Scripture and the speech of that period.” [My emphasis].
[See www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCGOSPL.HTM]
 
juliamajor
People who some have named as “disloyal” or “dissenters” have never been labelled so by the Church
We are commanded to judge all actions, speech and writings according to truth – thus a dissenter does not have to be so named by Christ’s Church to be identified.

Dissent is “public opposition to the Magisterium of the Church.” (Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian Donum Veritatis], CDF 1990, #32).

Please note facts:
False Reasoning (EWTN)
Question from on 24/1/02:
Dear Fr Echert
You have disposed of the false idea that appointment to the present Pontifical Biblical Commission gives unqualified approval to those so appointed regardless of errors promoted.

Also, isn’t it a fact that not being censured by name from Rome for errors does not mean necessarily that the person has not spread errors? Several examples come to mind.

Rahner, with some others, concocted the notion of a “fundamental option” of a type which denied the doctrine on mortal sin taught by the Council of Trent “An Introduction to Moral Theology”, Wiiliam E May, p 154-155]. Jesuit Fr Karl Rahner, was one of the signatories of a document dissenting from “Humanae Vitae” actually circulated world-wide by its authors so as to get support for it. [Refer Christian Order, Aug-Sep 92, Jorge Molinero - Recent History of Theological Dissent (20 years of “Parallel Magisterium”, p 432)]. No named censure from Rome, but we know that both errors have been censured by the Holy Father – in “Veritatis Splendour” (# 65-70) and in “Evangelium Vitae”, however.

Certain beliefs propagated by Origen were condemned centuries after he died by several Ecumenical Councils.

Fr Richard McBrien, SJ, has confused many and denigrated the Magisterium – US Bishops have censured much contained in his most recent “Catholicism” as well as his earlier work, but nothing from Rome has publicly condemned him by name.

Thus, nothing is proved by fallaciously reasoning that because Raymond Brown has not been condemned by Rome to date, in condemning theories which he promoted, that Brown must be in very good standing. The false theories have been condemned by Rome, not only by his bishop who named him, and the reasoning is fallacious because it involves a non sequitur. When bishops govern and teach faithfully, Rome seldom needs to act directly by naming, but in the final analysis Rome chooses when to include names.

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 24/1/02
Thanks, Peter, for elaborating upon this important point with some examples. In fact, in recent decades Rome has been rather cautious and even slow to act against some dissident theologians and renegade bishops, for reasons known to Rome I imagine. As you note, a lack of condemnation or censure from the Vatican in the present times is not the equivalent of an endorsement. In fact, until the very end, Jesus Christ kept to himself the sinister character and corrupt behavior of Judas Iscariot rather than expose him to the other apostles, even as he stole from the purse of the poor and made plans to betray the Son of God into the hands of sinners.
 
I patg , have never heard of divine tradition-but Apostolic I have heard of.
Hi Julia ! Long time no read.
I just noticed that you have at this time finally (as I doubt I will catch up) way outstripped me in posts! Though you are three years a later joiner of CAF.
Makes me feel like a figurative turtle.
There are only Church traditions, no divine traditions. What many call Capital “T” Traditions are those Church Traditions that are of the unchanging Apostolic Deposit of Faith. So for example Church Infallibility is a big “T” tradition. They are rooted in the Deposit of Faith bequeathed to us by the Apostles. Little “t” traditions are things like the College of Cardinals electing the Pope.
I was the one who brought the phrase “divine tradition” into the thread and have failed to explain its’ presence fully.

I did so SOLELY as a quote from the translation of the instruction in a commentary by one of the historical-critical authors I had mentioned; Fitzmeyer in this case – brown would have been better contextually, but they are good buddies being two of the three Editors who select, arrange material for the “New Jerome Biblical Commentary”

I did so as PatG appears to be defending the position of their theories/commentaries. It is my standard approach to attempt to use the logical framework, sources, of a person in order to improve the chances of avoiding an outright rejection based on suspected “bias”. EG: I often quote the KJV to KJV biased people, etc. I think I cut and pasted – if not it would be a brain mess on my part – but if it matters you tell me, I don’t wan’t to re-locate the phrase to verify it.

Divine is an adjective in the sentence. I am not going to clarify it’s meaning, for it has a RANGE of possibilites all of which I took into account when I made my remarks. Though you are free to try and figure out its’ exact meaning from Fitzmeyer – and better, compare Fitzmeyer’s translation to the original Language if you are able.

I did not bother to read the analysis, I was too tired, etc; but I read only the accompanying translation (by Fitzmeyer) Text of the PBC’s "Instruction"

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/PBC_HistTruthFitzmyer.htm

Your brother in Christ,
–Andrew.
 
We are commanded to judge all actions, speech and writings according to truth – thus a dissenter does not have to be so named by Christ’s Church to be identified.

Dissent is “public opposition to the Magisterium of the Church.” (Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian Donum Veritatis], CDF 1990, #32).

Please note facts:
False Reasoning (EWTN)
Question from on 24/1/02:
Dear Fr Echert
You have disposed of the false idea that appointment to the present Pontifical Biblical Commission gives unqualified approval to those so appointed regardless of errors promoted.

Also, isn’t it a fact that not being censured by name from Rome for errors does not mean necessarily that the person has not spread errors? Several examples come to mind.

Rahner, with some others, concocted the notion of a “fundamental option” of a type which denied the doctrine on mortal sin taught by the Council of Trent “An Introduction to Moral Theology”, Wiiliam E May, p 154-155]. Jesuit Fr Karl Rahner, was one of the signatories of a document dissenting from “Humanae Vitae” actually circulated world-wide by its authors so as to get support for it. [Refer Christian Order, Aug-Sep 92, Jorge Molinero - Recent History of Theological Dissent (20 years of “Parallel Magisterium”, p 432)]. No named censure from Rome, but we know that both errors have been censured by the Holy Father – in “Veritatis Splendour” (# 65-70) and in “Evangelium Vitae”, however.

Certain beliefs propagated by Origen were condemned centuries after he died by several Ecumenical Councils.

Fr Richard McBrien, SJ, has confused many and denigrated the Magisterium – US Bishops have censured much contained in his most recent “Catholicism” as well as his earlier work, but nothing from Rome has publicly condemned him by name.

Thus, nothing is proved by fallaciously reasoning that because Raymond Brown has not been condemned by Rome to date, in condemning theories which he promoted, that Brown must be in very good standing. The false theories have been condemned by Rome, not only by his bishop who named him, and the reasoning is fallacious because it involves a non sequitur. When bishops govern and teach faithfully, Rome seldom needs to act directly by naming, but in the final analysis Rome chooses when to include names.

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 24/1/02
Thanks, Peter, for elaborating upon this important point with some examples. In fact, in recent decades Rome has been rather cautious and even slow to act against some dissident theologians and renegade bishops, for reasons known to Rome I imagine. As you note, a lack of condemnation or censure from the Vatican in the present times is not the equivalent of an endorsement. In fact, until the very end, Jesus Christ kept to himself the sinister character and corrupt behavior of Judas Iscariot rather than expose him to the other apostles, even as he stole from the purse of the poor and made plans to betray the Son of God into the hands of sinners.
(being on EWTN does not make one correct or infallible)
So it comes down to one’s interpretation of what is being presented?Sorry I have to disagree . Seems like one’s opinion is incumbent upon one’s education, one’s likes and dislikes, one’s culture,one’s upbringing etc. How is one to judge honestly and without prejudice?Scripture has many nuances and approaches and interpreting it through a prism of different disciplines can give you many facets.How do I know your appraisel of brown or anyone else is the correct one? why would your judgment be superior to anybody else’s?
 
BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO BELIEVE WITHOUT SEEING!!! ALLTHINGS WILL BE REVILLED IN DUE TIME!!! STAY STRONG:p
 
juliamajor
Seems like one’s opinion is incumbent upon one’s education, one’s likes and dislikes, one’s culture,one’s upbringing etc. How is one to judge honestly and without prejudice?
why would your judgment be superior to anybody else’s?
You have chosen to ignore the facts given to you, and to obfuscate over the simple commands by Jesus to judge everything according to His truth from His Church, not by prejudiced opinions but through truth – no wonder you express disorder and confusion. You have ignored the teaching of the PBC in 1964. That is precisely why I have not given my opinions but facts, and a real Scripture scholar has explained the meaning of those facts.

False Scholarship

On Priest and Bishop: Biblical Reflections, 1971, by Fr Brown, Lawrence Cardinal Shehan (Homiletic and Pastoral Review, November, 1975) is very strong in taking Fr Brown to task: “Instead of a Church actually established by Christ, he proposes a Church which stemmed from Christ; and in place of a Eucharistic Sacrifice which was actually instituted by Christ, he proposes a sacrifice and a priesthood which gradually emerged some 70 years after the public life, passion, death and resurrection of Jesus and the coming of the Holy Spirit.”

This is just the sort of error peddled here by those, who cannot but cling desperately to Brown, because their whole view is based on the approach to which he subscribes and which Benedict XVI has exposed – that Jesus didn’t give His authority to the Apostles and the whole caboodle emerged later with members needing to confirm what is taught!

Imprimi potest (EWTN)
Question from on 03-17-2002:
Dr Geraghty, You recently answered a question about the meaning of imprimatur and nihil obstat. I’m reading a book called “Understanding Difficult Scriptures in a Healing Way” by Linn et al. Unfortunately, this book praises the likes of Karl Rahner,Raymond Brown, Richard McBrien and others. The book is published by Paulist Press, and I looked for an imprimatur. All I could find was an “Imprimi potest” by D. Edward Mathie, S.J… Is this something different?

Answer by Richard Geraghty on 03-20-2002:
Dear D.B.
Good point. It seems that the Bishops have not been very careful about to whom they give the permission to print. So it has happened that Rome sometimes forces a Bishop to withdraw his approval of a certain book. The Imprimi potest means: this can be printed. Unfortunately, however, this guarantee of doctrinal purity is not always sound.
[My underlining].
Note: the imprimatur is worthless where fidelity has gone.

Father Brown (EWTN)
Question from on 01-07-2002:
Has there ever been a Vatican response to any of the writings of Father Raymond Brown? Was he the first theologian to propose that the bible is infallible only in issues relating to salvation?
Some of his statements about the infancy narratives (dubious history), ever-virgin Mary (was she really), etc. seem to be on the fringe of orthodoxy.

**Answer by Dr. William Carroll on 01-07-2002: **
Very much on the fringe! No, Father Brown, though quite clearly a Modernist, was never condemned, perhaps partly because of his (in my opinion, undeserved) reputation as a Scripture scholar. Hans Kung, who was condemned, took essentially the same position as Father Brown on infallibility and the inerrancy of the Bible. - Dr. Carroll
[My underlining].
 
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