Bible and Incest

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Hi, Toby. Instead of throwing mountains and mountains of citations at us, why not give us a staight answer?: Did Cain engage in sexual relations with his sister? “Yes,” or “no”? Pick one of those two words.
You already have my answer. Everything seems to fly over your head. All the links I sent you were suggested reading because obviously you know nothing about the Magesterium. All I have seen from you is rejection of Church teaching, lack of respect for the OT and NT and untrue comparisons that are totally unecessary I am not here for fun and games. I take my faith seriously and am here to learn truth and not be entertained at a circus. I also am here to teach the truth accurately not on false assumptions.
 
You already have my answer. Everything seems to fly over your head. All the links I sent you were suggested reading because obviously you know nothing about the Magesterium. All I have seen from you is rejection of Church teaching, lack of respect for the OT and NT and untrue comparisons that are totally unecessary I am not here for fun and games. I take my faith seriously and am here to learn truth and not be entertained at a circus. I also am here to teach the truth accurately not on false assumptions.
Hi, Toby.

I figured that you would not answer the simple question. That is alright. Everyone here can see what you wrote instead.

How strong is your argument, friend, if you can’t answer the simple question with the simple answer?

When someone asks, “Did Cain engage in sexual relations with his sister?,” which is easier?:

Answering “Yes” or “No”?

Or answering, “You already have my answer. Everything seems to fly over your head. All the links I sent you were suggested reading because obviously you know nothing about the Magesterium. All I have seen from you is rejection of Church teaching, lack of respect for the OT and NT and untrue comparisons that are totally unecessary I am not here for fun and games. I take my faith seriously and am here to learn truth and not be entertained at a circus. I also am here to teach the truth accurately not on false assumptions.”?

There is a lesson, here: If you can’t answer a simple question without rhetorical evasion, then please be gentle, loving and non-judgmental in your judgments of others’ opinions.

No matter what, I will try to answer your questions simply, and with gentleness.

Peter
 
Hi, Toby.

I figured that you would not answer the simple question. That is alright. Everyone here can see what you wrote instead.

How strong is your argument, friend, if you can’t answer the simple question with the simple answer?

When someone asks, “Did Cain engage in sexual relations with his sister?,” which is easier?:

Answering “Yes” or “No”?

Or answering, “You already have my answer. Everything seems to fly over your head. All the links I sent you were suggested reading because obviously you know nothing about the Magesterium. All I have seen from you is rejection of Church teaching, lack of respect for the OT and NT and untrue comparisons that are totally unecessary I am not here for fun and games. I take my faith seriously and am here to learn truth and not be entertained at a circus. I also am here to teach the truth accurately not on false assumptions.”?

There is a lesson, here: If you can’t answer a simple question without rhetorical evasion, then please be gentle, loving and non-judgmental in your judgments of others’ opinions.

No matter what, I will try to answer your questions simply, and with gentleness.

Peter
Why do you want me to give my answer twice?? Isn’t one time good enough for you??? You want me to answer with kindness and gentleness. Not everyone is going to give you a kind a gentle answer. You aren’t taking things seriously enough. I give kindness and gentleness when needed. We must know God’s gentleness and kindness just as much as we need to know his wrath. I don’t respect those that don’t have any respect for the Magesterium and claim the know this and that. Do you think Peter and Paul always preached with kindness?? I don’t just teach about kindness and loving, but I also teach about fire a brimstone. We need both. I am sorry if I sound like a prick, because I am one when it comes to my faith. You need to take things as they come and always defend yourself. If you can’t see that I gave answer earlier in the thread, why should I have to repeat it for you? I am not trying to be rude, but you haven’t provided any statement except one that could be the full truth. I teach on accuracy and truth. I am not here to make jokes and be entertained. I am here to get the message across. I urge you to read the links I had sent you and see what I see.
 
Hi, Toby.

I figured that you would not answer the simple question. That is alright. Everyone here can see what you wrote instead.

How strong is your argument, friend, if you can’t answer the simple question with the simple answer?

When someone asks, “Did Cain engage in sexual relations with his sister?,” which is easier?:

Answering “Yes” or “No”?

Or answering, “You already have my answer. Everything seems to fly over your head. All the links I sent you were suggested reading because obviously you know nothing about the Magesterium. All I have seen from you is rejection of Church teaching, lack of respect for the OT and NT and untrue comparisons that are totally unecessary I am not here for fun and games. I take my faith seriously and am here to learn truth and not be entertained at a circus. I also am here to teach the truth accurately not on false assumptions.”?

There is a lesson, here: If you can’t answer a simple question without rhetorical evasion, then please be gentle, loving and non-judgmental in your judgments of others’ opinions.

No matter what, I will try to answer your questions simply, and with gentleness.

Peter
If there is a yes or no question a poll should be added.
 
Peter, maybe I can answer it for you. Yes, Cain and Seth had relations with their sisters. Can anyone explain to me why this is difficult to answer?
 
Why do you want me to give my answer twice?? Isn’t one time good enough for you??? You want me to answer with kindness and gentleness. Not everyone is going to give you a kind a gentle answer. You aren’t taking things seriously enough. I give kindness and gentleness when needed. We must know God’s gentleness and kindness just as much as we need to know his wrath. I don’t respect those that don’t have any respect for the Magesterium and claim the know this and that. Do you think Peter and Paul always preached with kindness?? I don’t just teach about kindness and loving, but I also teach about fire a brimstone. We need both. I am sorry if I sound like a prick, because I am one when it comes to my faith. You need to take things as they come and always defend yourself. If you can’t see that I gave answer earlier in the thread, why should I have to repeat it for you? I am not trying to be rude, but you haven’t provided any statement except one that could be the full truth. I teach on accuracy and truth. I am not here to make jokes and be entertained. I am here to get the message across. I urge you to read the links I had sent you and see what I see.
“Yes” or “No,” gentle friend in Christ. “Yes” or “No.”

I say, “No.”
 
Peter, maybe I can answer it for you. Yes, Cain and Seth had relations with their sisters. Can anyone explain to me why this is difficult to answer?
Hi, NotWorthy.

Many Protestant fundamentalists – and probably most non-fundamentalist Protestants, and many Catholics – view the Adam and Eve story as “history.”

This limits the number of people on Earth available to have sex with to the first generation of children beneath Adam and Eve.

Reproduction, if we view that as “perfectly accurate history,” is impossible unless brothers and sisters were “rolling around in the hay,” together – unbridled incest.

So, critics of Christianity make fun of Protestants and Catholics for contending that God intended, and therefore loved, incestuous sex!!!

Can you blame them for the criticism?

I can’t because I think that that version of history is absurd, and a moral outrage.

The incest taboo isn’t some social rule, dismissible on a whim if non-incest is inconvenient.

It is a “pre-wired” moral norm, implanted in our persons by God with the rest of our conscience. As Moses taught,

11 "For this command which I enjoin on you today is not too mysterious and remote for you.
12 It is not up in the sky, that you should say, ‘Who will go up in the sky to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?’
13 Nor is it across the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?’
14 No, it is something very near to you, already in your mouths and in your hearts; you have only to carry it out. Deuteronomy 30:11-14.


Many try to get around this problem by arguing that mankind was generationally closer to God, then – i.e., still falling – and that this somehow made having sex with one’s sister “A-OK.”

Nonsense. That is the most palpable, embarrassing nonsense.

In truth, Adam and Eve are a myth to teach theology. Cain and Abel are a myth to teach theology. We’re not supposed to go beyond the terms of the myth, as though there were underlying historical events crying out for an explanation. The myths aren’t intended to be viewed as history.

In truth, the incest taboo was in our species from the start. Why? Because the FAMILY concept was in our species from the start. In a family, the girls being raised, and the wife, need to know that their sexuality is innately untouchable to all males in the convenient nuclear family, except that the dad is the owner of the mom’s sexuality, and the mom is the owner of the dad’s sexuality.

And God puts this in our minds, when He forms us.

Those who preach that Adam and Eve are history are giving enormous strength to the enemies of religion.

In truth, what probably happened historically is this.

Our bodies and our minds probably evolved in a line of soulless intelligent hominids lacking a free will.

When it was time for our species to “become human,” God probably ensouled two of the hominids in the troupe. They would have had common ancestors several generations back (so that they were “monogenetic”). God, in his cleverness, probably ensouled the two whom He knew would meet and mate.

Their children would have all been ensouled at conception. But, they need not have incestuously married siblings to perpetuate the ensouled humans on Earth. God in His perfect wisdom could simply have ensouled non-sibling distant cousins in the hominid troupe (“monogenetic” because they shared the same common ancestors, many generations back) at their conception, so that when they met their mates, there was a non-incestuous, non-bestial relationship between ensouled humans.

Presto!!! Primordial human sex which is monogenetic but without incestuous sex between brothers and sisters and without bestial sex between ensouled descendents of the first humans and unensouled members of the hominid troupe!!!
 
Hi, NotWorthy.

Many Protestant fundamentals – and probably most non-fundamentalist Protestants, and many Catholics – view the Adam and Eve story as “history.”

This limits the number of people on Earth availablr to have sex with to the first generation of children beneath Adam and Eve.

Reproduction, if we view that as “poerfectly accurate history,” is impossible unless brothers and sisters were “rolling around in the hay,” together – unbridled incest.

So, critics of Christianity make fun of Protestants and Catholics for contending that God intended, and therefore loved, incestuous sex!!!

Can you blame them for the criticism?

I can’t because I think that that version of history is absurd, and a moral outrage.

The incest taboo isn’t some social rule, dismissible on a whim if non-incest is inconvenient.

It is a “pre-wired” moral norm, implanted in our persons by God with the rest of our conscience. As Moses taught,

11 "For this command which I enjoin on you today is not too mysterious and remote for you.
12 It is not up in the sky, that you should say, ‘Who will go up in the sky to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?’
13 Nor is it across the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?’
14 No, it is something very near to you, already in your mouths and in your hearts
; you have only to carry it out. Deuteronomy 30:11-14.

Many try to get around this problem by arguing that mankinmd was generationally closer to God, then – i.e., still falling – and that this somehow made having sex with one’s sister “A-OK.”

Nonsense. That is the most palpable, embarrassing nonsense.

In truth, Adam and Eve are a myth to teach theology. Cain and Abel are a myth to teach theology. We’re not supposed to go beyond the terms of the myth, as though there were underlying historical events crying out for an explanation. The myths aren’t intended to be viewed as history.

In truth, the incest taboo was in our species from the start. Why? Because the FAMILY concept was in our species from the start. In a family, the girls being raised, and the wife, need to know that their sexuality is innately untouchable to all males in the convenient nuclear family, except that the dad is the owner of the mom’s sexuality, and the mom is the owner of the dad’s sexuality.

And God puts this in our minds, when He forms us.

Those who preach that Adam and Eve are history are giving enormous strength to the enemies of religion.

In truth, what probably happened historically is this.

Our bodies and our minds probably evolved in a line of soulless intelligent hominids lacking a free will.

When it was time for our species to “become human,” God probably ensouled two of the hominids in the troupe. They would have had common ancestors several generations back (so that they were “monogenetic”). God, in his cleverness, probably ensouled the two whom He knew would meet and mate.

Their children would have all be ensouled at conception. But, they need not have incestuously married siblings to perpetuate the ensouled human. God in His perfect wisdom could simply have ensouled non-sibling distant cousins in the hominid troupe (“monogenetic” because they shared the same common ancestors, many generations back) at their conception, so that when they met their mates, there was a non-incestuous, non-bestial relationship between ensouled humans.

Presto!!! Primordial human sex which is monogenetic but without incestuous sex between brothers and sisters and without bestial sex between ensouled descendents of the first humans and unensouled members of the hominid troupe!!!
What religion are your??? You have no respect for fundamentalist, Protestants or Catholics. I am curious in what religion you do practice. You certainly deny the Magesterium, which is grave sin there. You don’t believe in anything that the Catholic Church teaches. WE are most certainly not pre-wired. You make it sound like we are robots. You have showed disrespect towards God by taking him out of context.

We are born with souls no questioned asked. Adam and Eve did exist and it was true account. Why do you reject Catholic teaching as Adam and Eve as our first parents. I honestly ask that you read the links I gave you earlier in this thread and not to respond to me until that you have read this material. You are way out of line
 
Oh, cool! Does that mean you say, “Yes!”?
Look here. I gave my opinion and you honestly don’t understand my answer. Why should I give you an answer more than once. I am not here to be amused. :mad: If you can’t find anything to support your absurd claims that violate the Magesterium then quit arguing. BTW, do you even know what the Magesterium is???
 
Hi, NotWorthy.

Many Protestant fundamentalists – and probably most non-fundamentalist Protestants, and many Catholics – view the Adam and Eve story as “history.”

This limits the number of people on Earth available to have sex with to the first generation of children beneath Adam and Eve.

Reproduction, if we view that as “perfectly accurate history,” is impossible unless brothers and sisters were “rolling around in the hay,” together – unbridled incest.

So, critics of Christianity make fun of Protestants and Catholics for contending that God intended, and therefore loved, incestuous sex!!!

Can you blame them for the criticism?

I can’t because I think that that version of history is absurd, and a moral outrage.

The incest taboo isn’t some social rule, dismissible on a whim if non-incest is inconvenient.

It is a “pre-wired” moral norm, implanted in our persons by God with the rest of our conscience. As Moses taught,

11 "For this command which I enjoin on you today is not too mysterious and remote for you.
12 It is not up in the sky, that you should say, ‘Who will go up in the sky to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?’
13 Nor is it across the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?’
14 No, it is something very near to you, already in your mouths and in your hearts
; you have only to carry it out. Deuteronomy 30:11-14.

Many try to get around this problem by arguing that mankind was generationally closer to God, then – i.e., still falling – and that this somehow made having sex with one’s sister “A-OK.”

Nonsense. That is the most palpable, embarrassing nonsense.

In truth, Adam and Eve are a myth to teach theology. Cain and Abel are a myth to teach theology. We’re not supposed to go beyond the terms of the myth, as though there were underlying historical events crying out for an explanation. The myths aren’t intended to be viewed as history.

In truth, the incest taboo was in our species from the start. Why? Because the FAMILY concept was in our species from the start. In a family, the girls being raised, and the wife, need to know that their sexuality is innately untouchable to all males in the convenient nuclear family, except that the dad is the owner of the mom’s sexuality, and the mom is the owner of the dad’s sexuality.

And God puts this in our minds, when He forms us.

Those who preach that Adam and Eve are history are giving enormous strength to the enemies of religion.

In truth, what probably happened historically is this.

Our bodies and our minds probably evolved in a line of soulless intelligent hominids lacking a free will.

When it was time for our species to “become human,” God probably ensouled two of the hominids in the troupe. They would have had common ancestors several generations back (so that they were “monogenetic”). God, in his cleverness, probably ensouled the two whom He knew would meet and mate.

Their children would have all been ensouled at conception. But, they need not have incestuously married siblings to perpetuate the ensouled humans on Earth. God in His perfect wisdom could simply have ensouled non-sibling distant cousins in the hominid troupe (“monogenetic” because they shared the same common ancestors, many generations back) at their conception, so that when they met their mates, there was a non-incestuous, non-bestial relationship between ensouled humans.

Presto!!! Primordial human sex which is monogenetic but without incestuous sex between brothers and sisters and without bestial sex between ensouled descendents of the first humans and unensouled members of the hominid troupe!!!
That is the best, clearest explanation I have EVER heard. You are a genious Peter - I mean it!
 
What religion are your??? You have no respect for fundamentalist, Protestants or Catholics. I am curious in what religion you do practice. You certainly deny the Magesterium, which is grave sin there. You don’t believe in anything that the Catholic Church teaches. WE are most certainly not pre-wired. You make it sound like we are robots. You have showed disrespect towards God by taking him out of context.

We are born with souls no questioned asked. Adam and Eve did exist and it was true account. Why do you reject Catholic teaching as Adam and Eve as our first parents. I honestly ask that you read the links I gave you earlier in this thread and not to respond to me until that you have read this material. You are way out of line
Toby, listen: I love you. You are a fellow Christian, made of the same imperfect flesh I am made of. But you want to condemn, I believe. You don’t really want to converse, eye-to-eye, I believe. And, I believe that you want to condemn because you have an empty place inside of you which feels good, when you convince yourself that you are “up” because the other person is “down.”

Toby, watch me do something. I am going to be humble, here. Watch.

“I BELIEVE THAT IN CERTAIN WAYS TOBY IS A BETTER PERSON THAN I AM.”

And do you want to know something? I believe that. I really do.

So, please feel good about yourself. In my opinion, you are a good person.

But, in my opinion, you are hurting the Church badly by publicly maintaining that Adam and Eve are historical.

I believe as a Catholic that one is more in conformity with God’s will if one believes that Adam and Eve are not history, but just a religious myth inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Peter
 
ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!. That is the poorest excuse and it denies the Magesterium.
No I’m not kidding. Tobinator you are like a Bible cop. You don’t want anyone reading any other version than the Douay Rheims. You are always “writing tickets” for Bible infractions. It’s stupid. Peter is amazing and his ideas are very very true. Put down your guns and open up your heart. You might just learn something.
 
Toby, listen: I love you. You are a fellow Christian, made of the same imperfect flesh I am made of. But you want to condemn, I believe. You don’t really want to converse, eye-to-eye, I believe. And, I believe that you want to condemn because you have an empty place inside of you which feels good, when you convince yourself that you are “up” because the other person is “down.”

Toby, watch me do something. I am going to be humble, here. Watch.

“I BELIEVE THAT IN CERTAIN WAYS TOBY IS A BETTER PERSON THAN I AM.”

And do you want to know something? I believe that. I really do.

So, please feel good about yourself. In my opinion, you are a good person.

But, in my opinion, you are hurting the Church badly by publicly maintaining that Adam and Eve are historical.

I believe as a Catholic that one is more in conformity with God’s will if one believes that Adam and Eve are not history, but just a religious myth inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Peter
I am not condemning you. That’s were you are taking out of context. You honestly don’t know what the Magesterium is. By Catholic Church we are to accept Adam and Eve as our first parents. They are. So yes the were real people. That can be proven. What can’t be proven is that they weren’t real. I honestly feel that you and I are on equal grounds. I am not better than you and you are not better than me. How am I hurting the Church by maintaining that Adam and Eve existed, when the Magesterium (Church in general) teaches Adam and Eve did exist and that they are our first parents.One can accept Evolution as long as it doesn’t interfere with the faith. It also can be accepted in conjunction that it doesn’t deny God as the creator.
 
No I’m not kidding. Tobinator you are like a Bible cop. You don’t want anyone reading any other version than the Douay Rheims. You are always “writing tickets” for Bible infractions. It’s stupid. Peter is amazing and his ideas are very very true. Put down your guns and open up your heart. You might just learn something.
You too are taking out of context. I only recommend the Douay-Rheims. That doesn’t mean that is only Bible one should read.The Confraternity and Ronald Knox are good too. If am not mistaking, you think that we should be reading the NIV!!! A Bible not even approved by the Catholic Church and this Bible is missing several verses in addition to the 7 deutrocanonical books and the rest of Esther and Daniel.This Bible is a poor excuse for a Bible (NIV). In fact will go as far as saying it is the worst Bible next to the Jehovah Witness Bible, New World Translation. I have heard 1 idea that is true from Mr. Dawson. My heart is always open. We are not to have harden hearts. I have learned something. Many people do not take the Magesterium seriously and or do not even know what it is.
 
No I’m not kidding. Tobinator you are like a Bible cop. You don’t want anyone reading any other version than the Douay Rheims. You are always “writing tickets” for Bible infractions. It’s stupid. Peter is amazing and his ideas are very very true. Put down your guns and open up your heart. You might just learn something.
Hi, Christine. Thank you for the compliment. I’m pretty good. I don’t know if I am all that smart. At 56 yoa, it took a good 30 years to get to where I am now.
 
Peter and Christine,

I suggest you both read Paragraphs 2032-2051 of Catechism of the Catholic Church understand what I am talking about and how to understand me. This explains the Magisterium
 
I am not condemning you. That’s were you are taking out of context. You honestly don’t know what the Magesterium is. By Catholic Church we are to accept Adam and Eve as our first parents. They are. So yes the were real people. That can be proven. What can’t be proven is that they weren’t real. I honestly feel that you and I are on equal grounds. I am not better than you and you are not better than me. How am I hurting the Church by maintaining that Adam and Eve existed, when the Magesterium (Church in general) teaches Adam and Eve did exist and that they are our first parents.One can accept Evolution as long as it doesn’t interfere with the faith. It also can be accepted in conjunction that it doesn’t deny God as the creator.
I know fairly well what the Magisterium is, but not perfectly. The reason why the concept is somewhat elusive is because the concept of Magisterial Infallibility is somewhat elusive. It must be somewhat elusive philosophically, because it involves divine action by an ineffable God.

And inside that necessary elusiveness are some wonderful things and troubling things.

Inside of the story of one of the troubling things is the story of one of the wonderful things.

The great Arian Heresy almost, but not quite, brought down the Church. Even the nominally Catholic Roman Emperor took up the Arian cause. He demanded that the pope at that time, the first pope never to be canonized, Liberius, take a stand on Arianism.

Pope Liberius condemned Bishop Athanasius and his position, and adopted a compromise between Roman Catholic theology and that of the Arians, enough for Arians to conclude, “Our theology is acceptable.”

Athanasius and Jerome both condemned the Papal compromise. The Roman Emperor laughed at Bishop Athanasius. He triumphantly joked, “ANTHANASIUS AGAINST THE WORLD.”

Some said, of this time, “The world went to bed Catholic, and woke up Arian.”

Ultimately, after the Arian troops surrounding Liberius were removed, Liberius condemned his own statement about Arianism, and adopted the Athanasian Creed!!

The incident turned the Roman Emperor’s boast on its head. To this date, “ATHANASIUS AGAINST THE WORLD!” has become a wonderful, inspiring rallying cry, because, in a sense, Athansius defeated the world.

What a story!

In any event, note that sometimes Infallibilty goes up, not down.

But we may morally only do that when we are certain, to a point of moral certainty, that the Magisterial Teaching is in error.
 
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