Bible and Qu'ran: Let's settle this!

[Laurence_of_PA]

Are either the Bible or the Q’uran so objectively wicked that one or the other is a negative influence on society?

OR

Does the negativity of either religious book depend on an individual groups’ interpretation only?

…

ALSO:

Is the Middle East currently a dirt poor, unstable, and volatile region *because *Islam is wicked?

OR

Is Islam seemingly wicked *because *the Middle East is currently a dirt poor, unstable, and volatile region?

 

[Bubble]

For starters, please define what you mean by “wicked”.

You wrote, “Let’s settle this”. Please explain what criteria will be used to determine if the matter is settled or not.

 

[St_Aloysius]

Qur’an is a beautiful, poetic religious text that tells of a God “Most Gracious, Most Merciful,” and his interactions with his creation, his concern for the poor, and his desire for his people to act righteously.

I have a copy and am amazed by it, really.

If Islam is about submission to God, and God according to Islam is loving and kind, then it’s safe to conclude that unrational people are twisting a pure (and evolving, mind you) religion into something it’s not.

People in the past have similarly distorted the message of the Christian Bible…

There really can be little comparison of the texts, as they have different cultural contexts, modes of interpretation, overall messages, etc., etc. Qur’an is a poetic book, the Torah and Gospels are more narrative, though they largely agree on many matters. On others, they don’t.

Trying to prove the superiority of one over the other is simply foolish. If you wish to proclaim Christ and his Gospel as the Church proclaims it, love–do the corporeal and spiritual works, etc. And if one wishes to show mankind Allah, be charitable and kind and submit wholeheartedly to him.

This is what decides which religion thrives, not textual analysis.

Peace

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

For starters, please define what you mean by “wicked”.

Suicide bombing, kidnapping, torture, burning/sacking cities, honor killing, torture, genocide, burning people at the stake, torture, assasination of heretical (secular) political leaders, wildly shooting AK-47’s in the air, and of course: torture…

(yeah I know, I mixed in a few of Christendom’s sins while I was at it )

You wrote, “Let’s settle this”. Please explain what criteria will be used to determine if the matter is settled or not.

I’m just being hopeful…sheesh

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Qur’an is a beautiful, poetic religious text that tells of a God “Most Gracious, Most Merciful,” and his interactions with his creation, his concern for the poor, and his desire for his people to act righteously.

Hi St_Aloysius,

That sounds like another book I know.

I have a copy and am amazed by it, really.

Excuse me for being rude, but I don’t believe you.

I found the Qur’an to have no context, no chronology, and very hard to read.

If Islam is about submission to God, and God according to Islam is loving and kind, then it’s safe to conclude that unrational people are twisting a pure (and evolving, mind you) religion into something it’s not.

Now I really don’t believe you have ever studied Islam. Tell me, what is your favourite Qur’anic verse or story, or your favourite Qur’anic character?

People in the past have similarly distorted the message of the Christian Bible…

So has the Qur’an.

Considering you’ve read the Qur’an, you’d know that the Qur’an specifically denies Jesus is the Son of God (Qur’an 5:17) and it specifically denies Jesus died on the Cross (Qur’an 4:157).

… Trying to prove the superiority of one over the other is simply foolish…

I agree with you on that. The two should never be compared. Each should be studied separately so that emotions are kept aside.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Qur’an is a beautiful, poetic religious text that tells of a God “Most Gracious, Most Merciful,” and his interactions with his creation, his concern for the poor, and his desire for his people to act righteously.

I have a copy and am amazed by it, really.

If Islam is about submission to God, and God according to Islam is loving and kind, then it’s safe to conclude that unrational people are twisting a pure (and evolving, mind you) religion into something it’s not.

People in the past have similarly distorted the message of the Christian Bible…

There really can be little comparison of the texts, as they have different cultural contexts, modes of interpretation, overall messages, etc., etc. Qur’an is a poetic book, the Torah and Gospels are more narrative, though they largely agree on many matters. On others, they don’t.

Trying to prove the superiority of one over the other is simply foolish. If you wish to proclaim Christ and his Gospel as the Church proclaims it, love–do the corporeal and spiritual works, etc. And if one wishes to show mankind Allah, be charitable and kind and submit wholeheartedly to him.

This is what decides which religion thrives, not textual analysis.

Peace

So I’ll just put you down as “#2” for both my questions?

AND

You agree that one’s choice of religion doesn’t matter?

(just wanna see where ya stand )

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Trying to prove the superiority of one over the other is simply foolish.

Almost forgot to respond to this…

Personally, I consider myself agnostic and really don’t give a hoot what people believe…

so long as their belief system is a positive influence on them and society – that is something that matters!!!

Recently, for speech and debate competitions (extemp. in my case ), I’ve been analyzing the situation in Pakistan – Musharraf, PPP, Bhutto’s death, protest and unrest, Taliban refuge – and have been wondering whether the *root *of the problem is Islam itself or the unrelenting, impoverished, unemployed factions who happen to rally behind Islam.

See?

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

So are we settled yet?

 

[Bubble]

Ah, Laurence of PA, you’re an agnostic. I suspect you’re ultimate goal here to “expose” both the bible and the Q’uran as both being wicked. But, first things first. You gave example of wickedness, but you didn’t explain why they were wicked.

Is this where you attempt to explain–by expressing the opposite?

so long as their belief system is a positive influence on them and society – that is something that matters!!!

On that note, how do you determine if a belief system is a positive influence on an individual? Or a society? I don’t think you can give a satisfactory answer to these questions, until you go deeper into the “what and why” of it. What constitutes a “positive influence” and why?

 

[St_Aloysius]

That sounds like another book I know.

Curious, no?

Excuse me for being rude, but I don’t believe you.

I found the Qur’an to have no context, no chronology, and very hard to read.

Um… I’m… sorry? Ha, ha. I don’t know how to reply. The context is Mecca’s political situation in roughly 610 C.E. and thereafter. The text’s emphasis on acting justly toward the oppressed is due largely to the abuse of the impoverished lower classes during the time. Its recounting of ancient Israelite history is used to support charitable acts, or faithfulness towards God, etc. Muhammad’s Qur’anic recitations were often in response to a current issue in the ummah (community) or in the surrounding lands. (This is why the text may appear haphazard at times.)

For instance, the instruction given to turn toward Mecca rather than Jerusalem in prayer followed Muhammad’s discovery that Christianity and Judaism were two warring sects, rather than a singular religion. It’s for this reason he admonished his followers not to become like them and let discrepancies separate them. (They, like the Christian Church, inevitably separated due to conflicting ideas, however, into various “denominations” unfortunately.)

If it’s hard to read, that may be due to your translation of the text. (Unless you’re doing better than me and have taken up Arabic, although I know it to be considered an exemplary piece of Arabian poetry, so that may not be it.) I use an old-style English rendition because I can read it and like that particular prose for religious works, though I also like more modern renditions that are by-and-large easier to comprehend.

Now I really don’t believe you have ever studied Islam. Tell me, what is your favourite Qur’anic verse or story, or your favourite Qur’anic character?

Ha, ha. You’ve got me there! I’ve never “studied” in a formal manner. I didn’t mean to imply that I had, though. Sorry about that! Sadly, public schools for kids my age don’t offer comparative religion classes. My favorite verse is probably Surah 6:162. I like how it emphasizes that everything we do is all for God, that our lives and our death are for him alone It reminds me a little of Saint Paul’s similar words in Philippians 2. I like when the Qur’an revisits Old or New Testament accounts, and its unique take on the tales. I don’t know if I have a favorite “character.”

Considering you’ve read the Qur’an, you’d know that the Qur’an specifically denies Jesus is the Son of God (Qur’an 5:17) and it specifically denies Jesus died on the Cross (Qur’an 4:157).

Yes, but it also affirms him as Prophet and Messiah, the sinless Son of Mary. There will always be a certain similitude to and dissimilitude from the Christian Scriptures.

You agree that one’s choice of religion doesn’t matter?

It’s a ridiculous notion to assert that religion doesn’t matter if one is truly searching for the fullness of truth, which can only be found in one place—or should I say one Person? But I have to believe that there is a certain amount of truth and beauty in all religions. Islam is no exception.

 

[de_profundis]

I respect Islam due to its strictness and the devotion to God in such regular prayer. However its core revolves around duty based ethics - something that Jesus Christ brought the Jewish and gentiles above and beyond. There is only a certain level of enlightenment and closeness to God achieved through duty based ethics.

One glaring problem I find with Islam is that it is supposedly the unaltered, perfect, word of God. The ‘prophet’ Mohammed said that it is a terrible sin to honour the trinity, which he describes as Father, Son and Mary. The Catholic church outlined in the council of Nicaea, about 300 years before Mohammed was born, that the trinity is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (it would have been preached much earlier than this and is implied in the bible, but this is one solid, historical event we can refer to).

So, was God confused about what Christians believed was the trinity when he dictated the Koran to Mohammed? I think not. Or, was God talking about a different Christian sect? If so, why did he address a belief that, if it existed, probably involved such a minute minority? The majority of the rest of religious Europe/Middle East would have been honouring the trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - why did he not mention this trinity in the Koran if it is God’s final word to correct the wrongs of the Christians and Jews?

Unfortunately the Koran is fraught with many such fatal errors in logic. Not to mention the fact that it includes many tales about Jesus that originated in folklore and poetry between 300-500 AD.

Finally - how can anyone honour a ‘prophet’ that used the sword to quash unbelievers, when there is the salvific power of turning the other cheek, and using love and charity instead, through the teachings of Jesus Christ? Further, this ‘prophet’ slept with his wife when she was 8 years old, and promises martyrs a bevy of virgins and young boys in paradise. This ‘prophet’ and his men sacked cities, raped women, and killed unbelievers instead of showing compassion and converting out of love. Muslims will defend this by the arguement of moral relativism. How can the morals handed down by God and his prophet be relative and change from age to age???

There is some truth in the Koran and I respect that. However it is not the whole truth, and there is a whole lot of evil thrown in there as well.

 

[swariffin]

Hi St_Aloysius,
Now I really don’t believe you have ever studied Islam. Tell me, what is your favourite Qur’anic verse or story, or your favourite Qur’anic character?

Dear Charlie,

I never study Islam, except for deep talks with a relative of mine who happens to be a Hajj. My favorite character in Quran are Isa Almasheeh and Maryam. However, I found that Quran is incomplete describing those, so I went to the bible and found to be more satisfactory explaining those two characters.

 

[St_Aloysius]

how can anyone honour a ‘prophet’ that used the sword to quash unbelievers

He didn’t. The ummah used a type of nonviolent raid to build itself up that was quite common in Arabian culture at the time, and used military conquests later on to expand their territory, but Muhammad as the violent fellow who killed to convert is simply not an accurate picture. If it were, why is it that the Islamic people lived alongside of Jews and Christians for centuries without any pressure to convert? This is a legitimate question. The same can’t be said of Christianity, that’s for sure. But it was only at a later date that Islamic leaders saw it fit to try to convert their Jewish and Christian neighbors.

Peace

 

[steve_b]

Qur’an is a beautiful, poetic religious text that tells of a God “Most Gracious, Most Merciful,” and his interactions with his creation, his concern for the poor, and his desire for his people to act righteously.

I have a copy and am amazed by it, really.

If Islam is about submission to God, and God according to Islam is loving and kind, then it’s safe to conclude that unrational people are twisting a pure (and evolving, mind you) religion into something it’s not.

People in the past have similarly distorted the message of the Christian Bible…

There really can be little comparison of the texts, as they have different cultural contexts, modes of interpretation, overall messages, etc., etc. Qur’an is a poetic book, the Torah and Gospels are more narrative, though they largely agree on many matters. On others, they don’t.

Trying to prove the superiority of one over the other is simply foolish. If you wish to proclaim Christ and his Gospel as the Church proclaims it, love–do the corporeal and spiritual works, etc. And if one wishes to show mankind Allah, be charitable and kind and submit wholeheartedly to him.

This is what decides which religion thrives, not textual analysis.

Peace

Maybe you could point out the passages you’re talking about
quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/
It (this electronic version) doesn’t claim to be totally free of errors, but I would think it will give us a good idea of what the Quran teaches. Either way, since you have a copy of the Quran, you can make appropriate cross references and make changes where/if necessary.

Thanks

 

[dolphinlove]

Qur’an is a beautiful, poetic religious text that tells of a God “Most Gracious, Most Merciful,” and his interactions with his creation, his concern for the poor, and his desire for his people to act righteously.

I have a copy and am amazed by it, really.

If Islam is about submission to God, and God according to Islam is loving and kind, then it’s safe to conclude that unrational people are twisting a pure (and evolving, mind you) religion into something it’s not.

People in the past have similarly distorted the message of the Christian Bible…

There really can be little comparison of the texts, as they have different cultural contexts, modes of interpretation, overall messages, etc., etc. Qur’an is a poetic book, the Torah and Gospels are more narrative, though they largely agree on many matters. On others, they don’t.

Trying to prove the superiority of one over the other is simply foolish. If you wish to proclaim Christ and his Gospel as the Church proclaims it, love–do the corporeal and spiritual works, etc. And if one wishes to show mankind Allah, be charitable and kind and submit wholeheartedly to him.

This is what decides which religion thrives, not textual analysis.

Peace

Im sorry, i find it a bit hard to believe your Catholic…

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Im sorry, i find it a bit hard to believe your Catholic…

St_Aloysius may very well be Catholic. But it may serve us well to note what they wrote in post # 10…

… I’ve never “studied” [Islam] in a formal manner…

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Ah, Laurence of PA, you’re an agnostic. I suspect you’re ultimate goal here to “expose” both the bible and the Q’uran as both being wicked.

Quick Robin…the Batmobile! He caught me!

But seriously, if that’s how you feel about we-who-doubt, why bother asking me if I think something is wicked? Don’t you believe that I believe that wickedness doesn’t truly exist?

My goal here is to see which brand of Opium (see signature below) is best for the masses and which one causes common-sense-damaging brain tumors. Maybe their both safe! Maybe some people just overdose! OR…Maybe some don’t wash it down with enough water!

But, first things first. You gave example of wickedness, but you didn’t explain why they were wicked.

On that note, how do you determine if a belief system is a positive influence on an individual? Or a society? I don’t think you can give a satisfactory answer to these questions, until you go deeper into the “what and why” of it. What constitutes a “positive influence” and why?

Human evolution has favored those humans with a sense of altruism, for the resulting sentients are *better able *to create inter-dependent communities wherein each individual may contribute its comparitively unique resources towards the survival and ease of all within the group.

Thus, my genes have made me derive a sense of euphoria from seeing my fellow species NOT beaten and tortured by misguided individuals with flaming Olive Branches.

So, if religion “A” doesn’t allow this, then Hooray evolutionary euphoria!

However, if religion “B” promotes such a waste of perfectly good Olive Branches, then that religion would be a terrible influence on society, because it would prevent the majority of us selfish humans from selfishly getting high on our selfish altruism.

But luckily, I bet your genome isn’t as selfish!

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

St_Aloysius may very well be Catholic. But it may serve us well to note what they wrote in post # 10…

… I’ve never “studied” [Islam] in a formal manner…

To get this moving along…

What *does *Islam teach?

Who has the authority to interpret the Qur’an?

And of course: Is the cause of the ongoing nonpeace in the MidEast from Islam or elsewhere???

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

To get this moving along…

What *does *Islam teach?

Who has the authority to interpret the Qur’an?

And of course: Is the cause of the ongoing nonpeace in the MidEast from Islam or elsewhere???

Oh paleeze, Laurence of PA; Do you honestly think we are going to answer those 1000 year old questions on a little ole internet forum? Get yourself a lesson in Islam!

If don’t know where to begin, try asking questions in Google, and you’ll find all the answers there waiting for you to read, and it may take you months or years to do so.

Or, start a new thread - with a specific question - if you must.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Oh paleeze, Laurence of PA; Do you honestly think we are going to answer those 1000 year old questions on a little ole internet forum? Get yourself a lesson in Islam!

If don’t know where to begin, try asking questions in Google, and you’ll find all the answers there waiting for you to read, and it may take you months or years to do so.

Or, start a new thread - with a specific question - if you must.

thanks

but who do I go to with my questions first: Bin Laden or Sadat?

With a dying thread and little discussion to show for it, I’m just going to conclude with the obvious answer:

The virtues and vices of Christianity and Islam result only from the state of the people in each group and have nothing to do with the religions themselves.

I’m not throwing any more time into the garbage. Good night.