Bible being the Sole Authority??

[joe370]

Good question - in a practical sense, recent dogmas about the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Papal Office don’t effect salvation.

But here’s the nexus of the problem… while I’d love to be in communion with the Catholic church more than in spirit, I don’t have any desire to leave the church that has formed my faith, as I don’t see any need whatsoever.

As I see my own church as valid, I don’t see any need to become Catholic.

Recently defined you mean - right? The CC teaching office and Mary’s perpetual virginity/sinless disposition, were always believed. Regarding Marian dogmas, even by the protestant reformers. I have so many quotes if interested…

Ambrose:

. . . Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin. (Commentary on Psalm 118, 22, 30; Jurgens, II, 166)

Irenaeus:

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

 

[CopticChristian]

That is a good song: If it’s good enough for old Moses, if it’s good enough for old Moses, it’s good enough for me. SSPX, does the Tridentine Mass. No fancy masses. Just good old fashioned mass. I’m gonna have to learn Latin.

Bat,

I grew up with the Latin mass, the priests back to the congregation most of the time, chimes, incense…not a bad way to go…

Take a tour of all the Eastern Churches and see some good ol time stuff…Byzantine sing their mass…start to finish…The Chaldeans are different…no icons…get a look at both East/West…

 

[benjohnson]

Recently defined you mean - right? The CC teaching office and Mary’s perpetual virginity/sinless disposition, were always believed. Regarding Marian dogmas, even by the protestant reformers. I have so many quotes if interested…

No need! But thank you!

We love and revere the BMV, but we just don’t elevate her perpetual virginity, her assumption and the immaculate conception to the level of dogma.

Personally, I think those who argue against her need to examine their hearts.

 

[benjohnson]

I love your persistence in the name of Christ!

This is good virtue in an increasingly secular world.

Well…who is to say what effects and what does not effect salvation? The individual or an authoritative entity?

My church determines what effects salvation. I would be lost without it’s authority.

I take you you have made a choice and do not ask this question anymore?

I will of course reexamine the question from time to time, but my heart and mind are content.

And you said you see don’t see any need whatsoever…is it not…that what you do should is please God and not your own desires?

I pray to respond to the grace God has given me - I hope his love for me does not depend on me pleasing him, for I continue to sin over and over and repent over and over.

Which goes back to my question…if you see your own church as valid and a part of the western church…why are you not under the authority of the bishop of Rome…which is tradition…and you also claim to use tradition to inform you confessions?

I should be a bit more clear - we not a valid part of the western church, we say we are a valid continuation of the western church.

We certainly use tradition to shape our confessions! We would have almost no confessions at all without it.

Remember, Lutheran Sola Scripture is a practice of the church, and applied only in cases where other authorities seem to contradict the Word of God. Personally, I know of no application of this rule in the last 400 years of our church.

 

[benjohnson]

That is a good song: If it’s good enough for old Moses, if it’s good enough for old Moses, it’s good enough for me. SSPX, does the Tridentine Mass. No fancy masses. Just good old fashioned mass. I’m gonna have to learn Latin.

In my opinion, if you’re going to be Catholic, be a great Catholic. Avoid the SSPX.

 

[Porknpie]

Bat,

I grew up with the Latin mass, the priests back to the congregation most of the time, chimes, incense…not a bad way to go…

Take a tour of all the Eastern Churches and see some good ol time stuff…Byzantine sing their mass…start to finish…The Chaldeans are different…no icons…get a look at both East/West…

Bat,

Coptic has a good thought above. SSPX would not be included in the answer of “what is the Catholic Church” if you played a game of Catholic Jeopardy.

youtube.com/watch?v=j9T09J4j0p0.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I had a conversation the other day with a Protestant (Lutheran LCMC) friend of mine. The LCMC is like the Baptist of the Lutheran denomination and much different than what most Lutherans here believe in. I have invited him to join the forum but I get a feeling he thinks he will be sinning if he comes here lol.

Somehow we found our way to the topic of the Bible as the sole authority of man. LCMC still view the “church” with authority, but gives Sacred Scripture a the supreme authority in all matters of faith and salvation. He mentioned a guy he knows from work that takes Scripture as the sole authority to the extreme. He told me that a guy he knows believes Church is a human invention (even the Catholic Church) that was invented to control humanity and he believes in only what the bible says and each Sunday he reads from Scripture and that is his “church.” Now that is really sole authority lol.

 

[PRmerger]

Granted, still have to get through RCIA when it starts up again, I’ll need to get a copy of the CCC, and Catholicism for Dummies…But, what the heck. Why fight the ineveitble?

And once you receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation, repenting of your sins, you may receive Him in the Eucharist, batman! As long as you decide to repent and not commit mortal sin!

 

[pablope]

I love your persistence in the name of Christ!

This is good virtue in an increasingly secular world.

 

[benjohnson]

Okay…a valid continuation of the western church…let me reframe my question…as I had stated, be it a valid continuation of the western church…would you still not need a validly consecrated bishop from the west (or east if you prefer) to be the head shepherd…which has been the norm…and which comes from Tradition and tradition?

Our synod lost it apostolic succession mainly due to the grinding poverty of early america - we were forced out of our home countries when the government tried to force us to merge with the ‘reformed’. We didn’t get to keep the money.

Even then, we tried to maintain our apostolic succession, but our first LCMS bishop had to be removed for being a criminal. Given the problems we had with Bishops being subverted by the Government and our first bishop being horrid - we then turned to our members to chose a president who was know to be orthodox in morals and in teaching. Our synod has a president that fills the role of an episkopos (overseer) but he’s doesn’t claim traditional apostolic succession.

So we do have a president, we’re not rudderless that’s for sure. Given what we see in the ELCA, the TEC,and the SSPX, and even dear Leo X - having Bishops is no sure cure for the faults of man.

That said, European Lutherans still maintain their lines of Bishops.

Some American Lutheran Bishops like ELCA Lutherans claim Apostolic Succession based on Anglican bishops laying on of hands.

…

So short answer - I think we’d like to have apostolic succession, but If I had to distill our through it would be this: Our hope in the Grace of God and the Word of God, not in institutions of men that have let us down.

But who is to judge when that authority is contradicting the Word of God?

That would be our church, who I pray is guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[rfournier103]

That is a good song: If it’s good enough for old Moses, if it’s good enough for old Moses, it’s good enough for me. SSPX, does the Tridentine Mass. No fancy masses. Just good old fashioned mass. I’m gonna have to learn Latin.

My parish does the Extraordinary Form of the mass once a week. Perhaps finding a parish that’s in communion with the Holy See might be the way to go.

As another poster said, you were Lutheran the other day… what prompted the change? As always, may God go with you on your journey.

 

[joe370]

No need! But thank you!

We love and revere the BMV, but we just don’t elevate her perpetual virginity, her assumption and the immaculate conception to the level of dogma.

Personally, I think those who argue against her need to examine their hearts.

Just curious: you believe them but you just don’t elevate them? I’d be surprised about Mary’s assumption, but not the other two, for the simple fact that Martin Luther was a staunch believer of Mary’s perpetual virginity/Immaculate Conception.

By the way it is a real pleasure dialoguing with you. I wish certain non-Catholic family members of mine were more like you.

 

[SteveVH]

So short answer - I think we’d like to have apostolic succession, but If I had to distill our through it would be this: Our hope in the Grace of God and the Word of God, not in institutions of men that have let us down.

Ben, I have to tell you that I really enjoy your posts. You are one of the most honest people on this forum. Thank you for that.

I would agree completley that institutions of men will always disappoint us and ulimately they will fail. But the Church is not an “institution of men”, but rather a divine institution as it was founded by Jesus himself. It was Jesus who gave the Church authority and Jesus who made the promises. When we really consider the promises Jesus made concerning his Church it becomes evident that it will never fail regardless of the failures of men, and that we can rely on its doctrines and teachings in our quest for truth.

Apostolic succession is all important. It is how the deposit of faith and authority, first received from the Apostles, is handed down and guarded from generation to generation. When that line is broken, men step in who have only received their authority from other men and that is when problems begin to creep in. Anyway, I think you would make a great Catholic.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ben, I have to tell you that I really enjoy your posts. You are one of the most honest people on this forum. Thank you for that.

I would agree completley that institutions of men will always disappoint us and ulimately they will fail. But the Church is not an “institution of men”, but rather a divine institution as it was founded by Jesus himself. It was Jesus who gave the Church authority and Jesus who made the promises. When we really consider the promises Jesus made concerning his Church it becomes evident that it will never fail regardless of the failures of men, and that we can rely on its doctrines and teachings in our quest for truth.

Apostolic succession is all important. It is how the deposit of faith and authority, first received from the Apostles, is handed down and guarded from generation to generation. When that line is broken, men step in who have only received their authority from other men and that is when problems begin to creep in. Anyway, I think you would make a great Catholic.

I enjoy ben’s post as well and he has brought so much to this thread.

Nice post as well Steve

 

[benjohnson]

Ben, I have to tell you that I really enjoy your posts. You are one of the most honest people on this forum. Thank you for that.

That’s astoundingly kind of you, and give how much I know the Catholic church means to you, that you invite me is also a true kindness.

If I could flesh out our Lutheran acknowledgement that our church falls short of God’s plan for us:

My Lutheran church is rather nice - there’s a beautiful home, music, amazing leaders, a gospel filled hymnal, happy children in God, and kind people.

But one remark I had with my pastor after he expressed a desire to make the building a bit nicer, was “If all of this would burn to the ground, we could still meet on the ashes and have a church.We would need a bible, a hymnal, some bread and wine and we would pick up right were we left off.”

I remember him getting a bit emotional, he was so happy that one of his flock recognized what was important about the church - that it confessed the Gospel and faced the Cross.

I understand that the Catholic church has a bold vision for it’s role with God, and I don’t wish to discount that - for though I don’t believe that it’s true, I pray that it’s true for if we were to have a perfect church, we could all rejoice.

However justifiable this vision is, I do wish that the Catholic church spent a bit more time educating it’s flock on the limits of this vision - in that it seems that some Catholics then sadly find some detail in the Church that is not working properly, and then extrapolate that “if this detail is not correct then the whole church is not correct and therefore God is not correct.”

 

[aidanbradypop]

That’s astoundingly kind of you, and give how much I know the Catholic church means to you, that you invite me is also a true kindness.

If I could flesh out our Lutheran acknowledgement that our church falls short of God’s plan for us:

My Lutheran church is rather nice - there’s a beautiful home, music, amazing leaders, a gospel filled hymnal, happy children in God, and kind people.

But one remark I had with my pastor after he expressed a desire to make the building a bit nicer, was “If all of this would burn to the ground, we could still meet on the ashes and have a church.We would need a bible, a hymnal, some bread and wine and we would pick up right were we left off.”

I remember him getting a bit emotional, he was so happy that one of his flock recognized what was important about the church - that it confessed the Gospel and faced the Cross.

I understand that the Catholic church has a bold vision for it’s role with God, and I don’t wish to discount that - for though I don’t believe that it’s true, I pray that it’s true for if we were to have a perfect church, we could all rejoice.

However justifiable this vision is, I do wish that the Catholic church spent a bit more time educating it’s flock on the limits of this vision - in that it seems that some Catholics then sadly find some detail in the Church that is not working properly, and then extrapolate that “if this detail is not correct then the whole church is not correct and therefore God is not correct.”

That is very interesting Ben. Here in the Midwest (ND), Catholic converts are on the rise. More Lutherans are joining the Church than any other denomination. Now I am sure that is because Lutherans are a majority here like Catholics and so many interwed. That is not a jab at Lutherans lol.

I live in Fargo which is the “cultural center” of North Dakota. I am from Tennessee so much of their “culture” just blows over my head lol. Here in Fargo, there are more converts to Catholicism than any other faith. The news actually ran a story on it. It also countered the story with Catholics leaving the Church due to birth control, same sex union and a few other social issues. All the people they interviewed for the story that left the Catholic Church, left for social issues.

I am sure it is much different in other parts of the country. I often notice that people tend to give the Church authority and Scripture authority until it dampers their fun for social issues. Many people leave the faith, not just Catholicism, due to taking the authority and placing it in their own hands rather than where it should be.

 

[benjohnson]

Just curious: you believe them but you just don’t elevate them? I’d be surprised about Mary’s assumption, but not the other two, for the simple fact that Martin Luther was a staunch believer of Mary’s perpetual virginity/Immaculate Conception.

By the way it is a real pleasure dialoguing with you. I wish certain non-Catholic family members of mine were more like you.

I think that’s correct - we believe them, and we won’t tolerate discussing otherwise. I know Luther believed in the Assumption of Mary. Where we differ with the Catholic church is that we wouldn’t say that someone who believes otherwise would necessarily be outside of God’s salvation.

Frankly, if someone thinks otherwise about Mary in the Lutheran church, it would be an indication that the person is not properly taught and is not properly focused on God. It would be an indication of spiritual rot and we would do our best to find the source and correct it as soon as possible.

It’s been my please taking with you and everyone here in CAF - frankly, I consider the good knowledge and joyous love of the Lord of my Catholic and Christian friends here a part of my faith formation.

Sorry that some of your family isn’t behaving - you have my prayers that they stop seeking to vainly tear you away, and that they build you (and themselves) up in Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

That’s astoundingly kind of you, and give how much I know the Catholic church means to you, that you invite me is also a true kindness.

Well, I mean every word of it.

If I could flesh out our Lutheran acknowledgement that our church falls short of God’s plan for us:

My Lutheran church is rather nice - there’s a beautiful home, music, amazing leaders, a gospel filled hymnal, happy children in God, and kind people.

But one remark I had with my pastor after he expressed a desire to make the building a bit nicer, was “If all of this would burn to the ground, we could still meet on the ashes and have a church.We would need a bible, a hymnal, some bread and wine and we would pick up right were we left off.”

As a Catholic, I believe that even if every Bible in the world was burned, that we would still possess the fulness of truth within our Tradition; from whence the Bible came. I don’t know what faith traditions who use the Bible as the sole authority would do. Maybe they would come back to the Catholic Church.

I remember him getting a bit emotional, he was so happy that one of his flock recognized what was important about the church - that it confessed the Gospel and faced the Cross.

Yes, I wish more Catholics were aware of what the Church really is. I’ll bet you gave him a great shot of encourangement.

I understand that the Catholic church has a bold vision for it’s role with God, and I don’t wish to discount that - for though I don’t believe that it’s true, I pray that it’s true for if we were to have a perfect church, we could all rejoice.

However justifiable this vision is, I do wish that the Catholic church spent a bit more time educating it’s flock on the limits of this vision - in that it seems that some Catholics then sadly find some detail in the Church that is not working properly, and then extrapolate that “if this detail is not correct then the whole church is not correct and therefore God is not correct.”

Absolutely. Unfortunately, we have a large segment of uncatechized members. The Church has made great strides in the right direction but we still suffer from past neglect.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Absolutely. Unfortunately, we have a large segment of uncatechized members. The Church has made great strides in the right direction but we still suffer from past neglect.

I am dealing with that on another thread of mine lol. Many believe they know best instead of trusting Church teachings. Ugh lol

 

[SteveVH]

I am dealing with that on another thread of mine lol. Many believe they know best instead of trusting Church teachings. Ugh lol

Which is why uncatechized Catholics fall prey to other faith traditions so easily. When they are confronted with: “Wouldn’t you like to be assured of your salvation?”, they are a deer in the headlights. Happily, I see that changing in our young people.