Bible being the Sole Authority??

[mackbrislawn]

Absolutely. Unfortunately, we have a large segment of uncatechized members. The Church has made great strides in the right direction but we still suffer from past neglect.

It is true there are many ignorant Catholics. It was true in my case when I first encountered Jehovah’s Witnesses. Boy, it seemed these guys had done their homework because I learned words and ideas I had never before heard of. I was in college at the time so I had access to a library and found a book that was written by some person called Thomas Acquinas that dicusses all the things the Witnesses talked about and answered them as well, hundreds of years ago!

But there are lots of people who don’t have good libraries nearby or know how to use them. They might just swallow all these seemingly new things as from God. That’s why good catechesis to begin with is so important.

“The Spirit of Catholicism” by Karl Adam was excellent in opening my eyes to the riches of the Church.

 

[benjohnson]

That is very interesting Ben. Here in the Midwest (ND), Catholic converts are on the rise. More Lutherans are joining the Church than any other denomination. Now I am sure that is because Lutherans are a majority here like Catholics and so many interwed. That is not a jab at Lutherans lol.

You may think it odd, but I’m very happy to hear this.

There is a sickness in a lot of Lutheran churches - and if the Midwest Lutheran churches do not take care of their flocks, than I am very thankful that the Catholic Church is there for them.

Right now, the largest Lutheran synod here in america is going through it’s death throws, and the confessional Lutherans are either leaving the synod as individuals, or whole churches.

Thanks be to god that they have an alternatives in the LCMS, LCMC, Orthodox and Catholic faith.

 

[SteveVH]

It is true there are many ignorant Catholics. It was true in my case when I first encountered Jehovah’s Witnesses. Boy, it seemed these guys had done their homework because I learned words and ideas I had never before heard of. I was in college at the time so I had access to a library and found a book that was written by some person called Thomas Acquinas that dicusses all the things the Witnesses talked about and answered them as well, hundreds of years ago!

But there are lots of people who don’t have good libraries nearby or know how to use them. They might just swallow all these seemingly new thngs as new revelations from God. That’s why good catechesis to begin with is so important.

“The Spirit of Catholicism” by Karl Adam was excellent in opening my eyes to the riches of the Church.

I think it is more a matter of motivation. Our Church has an incredilbe wealth of resources by which one can learn their faith. When we offer a Bible study, for instance, I am always amazed at how few people turn out to participate, It is the same with any catechetical program we offer. About 10% of the parish is serious about knowing their faith beyond attending Mass.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I think it is more a matter of motivation. Our Church has an incredilbe wealth of resources by which one can learn their faith. When we offer a Bible study, for instance, I am always amazed at how few people turn out to participate, It is the same with any catechetical program we offer. About 10% of the parish is serious about knowing their faith beyond attending Mass.

Dont even get my started on Bible studies lol. I have been trying for over a year now to get one started and I do believe that a bill will be passed in both Houses of Congress before we start to study lol.

 

[SteveVH]

Dont even get my started on Bible studies lol. I have been trying for over a year now to get one started and I do believe that a bill will be passed in both Houses of Congress before we start to study lol.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Ben, Steve and Aidan,

Thank you all for this interaction!

God Bless,

Jose

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ben, Steve and Aidan,

Thank you all for this interaction!

God Bless,

Jose

Peace be with you brother

 

[ufamtobie]

Properly understood this is not the general function of sola scriptura. The function has to do with doctrine. Do my knowledge, there is no statement in scripture regarding weddings on the beach. Therefore, it is adiaphoron. Weddings on the beach cannot be doctrine, as scripture does not attach to it a command, example, or promise (to the beach part). OTOH, since a wedding on the beach, in and of itself, does no harm to the Gospel, it would not be prohibited.

Hey John,

Sacred ceremonies are celebrated in sacred places. Church is this sacred place. Nor a soon to be priest he can’t be ordained on the beach or a strip mall, or a casino lol so neither can a marriage, it also has to be on Sacred Grounds. John, this may not be stated in Holy Scripture that one can not be married on the beach…However it is not the Bible that Jesus Left, it is the Church that he left His Apostles and their Successors to govern and guide us through His Holy Church. Amen Did not Jesus say if there is any trouble take it to the Church which has the final Authority? Jesus did not say if there is any trouble take it to scripture, did he.

As for the Rosary, there is no scriptural requirement for meditative prayer, which is what the Rosary is, though there is clearly a command, example, and promise of prayer. The Rosary, in general, does no damage to the Gospel (references to the Blessed Virgin notwithstanding). It too, therefore, cannot be required by doctrine, nor prohibited.

 

[benjohnson]

Through the Grace of God the Rosary is a great meditative prayer.

Not to speak for Jon, but perhaps there’s a difference on how language is being used here.

Lutherans draw a distinction between purely Meditative and Contemplative prayer - if you were just mouthing the sounds of the words of the Rosary, generally Lutherans would say that was unscriptural.

If you are contemplating and thinking of the mysteries of Christ and the love the BMV has for all of us, then we would say that is quite scriptural.

 

[SteveVH]

Not to speak for Jon, but perhaps there’s a difference on how language is being used here.

Lutherans draw a distinction between purely Meditative and Contemplative prayer - if you were just mouthing the sounds of the words of the Rosary, generally Lutherans would say that was unscriptural.

If you are contemplating and thinking of the mysteries of Christ and the love the BMV has for all of us, then we would say that is quite scriptural.

And if one is praying the rosary correctly, they will be meditating upon the mysteries of Christ’s life. The prayers are background music for the dance with our beloved.

 

[JonNC]

I am still waiting for one advocate of “scripture being the final authority” tell me what Bible Abraham used for his final authority?

Good to have you back again, my friend. Hope all is well with you.

He didn’t have a scripture, so why would one expect him to use scripture? He did, however, have the word of God in a very unique way. He also did not experience a schism, to my knowledge, that would place Saced Tradition at odds with itself.

So, what do we have now? We have what we all believe is the source of truth, namely the written Word of God. we all agree that this is the case. We also all agree that the Church is not above scripture, but serves it. This is the source that makes the Church the pillar of truth. We also have the testimony and witness of the early Church which we, Lutherans and Catholics, to a large degree, hold as valuable and guiding, and give thanks to God for.

So, we come back to what principle the Church uses for hermeunetics. How does the Church determine what scripture means, and how is it applied to the teaching role of the Church? Further, how do we, in light of 1,000 years of schism, and 500 years of division in the west, come to convergence on doctrine and teaching?

I would contend that we do not do so by claiming:

1. that one group of Christians “stole” the Word of God.
2. that one group of Christians or another is not, in fact, part of the body of Christ, His Church.
3. question the faith or integrity of those who held, historically or currently, a form of leadership in any said group, lest we violate the eighth commandment.

I would contend, further, that the way to convergence, to seek the unity of His Church that He calls all of us to. is by claiming:

1. that we all teach Christ and Him crucified.
2. that we seek diligently to see and acknowledge the faith in Christ in each other that we all claim.
3. that we prayerfully seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to bring us to the unity He calls us to.
4. that we, together, seek His forgiveness and that of each other, for the divisions within His Church these many centuries.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

So, what do we have now? We have what we all believe is the source of truth, namely the written Word of God. we all agree that this is the case.

But I don’t think we do all believe that Sacred Scripture is the source of truth. We believe that the Apostles, who received authority and truth from Christ, are the source of truth. The Bible is that part of the Apostolic faith committed to writing and was never meant to be exhaustive list of all truth given to us by Jesus Christ.

 

[JonNC]

=ufamtobie;10407202]

Hey John,

Sacred ceremonies are celebrated in sacred places. Church is this sacred place. Nor a soon to be priest he can’t be ordained on the beach or a strip mall, or a casino lol so neither can a marriage, it also has to be on Sacred Grounds. John, this may not be stated in Holy Scripture that one can not be married on the beach…

And I would not argue the point, on any of these. My wife and I were married in a sanctuary, and that wedding was a full Lutheran mass. I believe that is the way it ought to be. Our pastor was ordained in a sanctuary as part of a full Lutheran mass. That is the proper way for it. But this wasn’t my point. My point was that, where two or three are gathered, there He is also, and to this extent a beach can be and is a sacred place. What is more important is not the location, but what is done in His name.

However it is not the Bible that Jesus Left, it is the Church that he left His Apostles and their Successors to govern and guide us through His Holy Church. Amen Did not Jesus say if there is any trouble take it to the Church which has the final Authority? Jesus did not say if there is any trouble take it to scripture, did he.

To say that Christ did not leave us His word just isn’t the case, and He referenced the written word quite often - “it is written”. And He left us His Church, and He made us a royal priesthood, and indeed He told us to “take it to the Church”.

John, “No Scriptural requirement for meditative prayer” John, you are wrong brother, actions speak louder than words for Jesus Christ was always in Meditative Prayer to His Father. We must follow in our Lords Foot Steps in Meditative prayer. As for the Rosary the Catholic Church does not say we must pray the Rosary, however it is a meditative prayer and the Rosary is in Sacred Scripture. Through the Grace of God the Rosary is a great meditative prayer.

Agreed.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

And I would not argue the point, on any of these. My wife and I were married in a sanctuary, and that wedding was a full Lutheran mass. I believe that is the way it ought to be. Our pastor was ordained in a sanctuary as part of a full Lutheran mass. That is the proper way for it. But this wasn’t my point. My point was that, where two or three are gathered, there He is also, and to this extent a beach can be and is a sacred place. What is more important is not the location, but what is done in His name.

To say that Christ did not leave us His word just isn’t the case, and He referenced the written word quite often - “it is written”. And He left us His Church, and He made us a royal priesthood, and indeed He told us to “take it to the Church”.

Agreed.

Jon

Hello my brother. I agree Jesus left His word,but not strictly on Holy writ. The phrase," It is written" does not limit God’s Words to written words alone.

 

[joe370]

I don’t think that’s the claim, Joe. I am part of the universal Church on Earth, the Church Militant, the Church Catholic, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Yet the CC claims I am of an “ecclesial community”.
If the papacy’s claim of primacy were in keeping to that given it in the early Church, I would be thrilled to submit to it.

Jon

Hey Jon, I did not find a response to the following; perhaps I overlooked your post. My response to your initial post:

I know that you belong to the universal, militant church on earth, (as all do, regardless of denomination) i.e. the fractured, mystical Body of Christ consisting of all of the isolated, autonomous churches. However, like me long ago, you do not yet, belong to the Catholic Church to which I now belong. If that is true then logically, the Catholic Church, in terms of supremacy and universal jurisdiction, has absolutely no jurisdiction over you or anyone within the fractured, mystical Body of Christ, not in full communion with the Catholic Church - right? The CC does not claim to have supremacy and universal jurisdiction over all the churches that comprise the fractured Mystical Body of Christ; just the one Catholic Church - agreed?

Surely men like Irenaeus knew better than us:

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” Against Heresies 3:3:2 - AD 189.

 

[Nicea325]

Hey Jon, I did not find a response to the following; perhaps I overlooked your post. My response to your initial post:

I know that you belong to the universal, militant church on earth, (as all do, regardless of denomination) i.e. the fractured, mystical Body of Christ consisting of all of the isolated, autonomous churches. However, like me long ago, you do not yet, belong to the Catholic Church to which I now belong. If that is true then logically, the Catholic Church, in terms of supremacy and universal jurisdiction, has absolutely no jurisdiction over you or anyone within the fractured, mystical Body of Christ, not in full communion with the Catholic Church - right? The CC does not claim to have supremacy and universal jurisdiction over all the churches that comprise the fractured Mystical Body of Christ; just the one Catholic Church - agreed?

Surely men like Irenaeus knew better than us:

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” Against Heresies 3:3:2 - AD 189.

No matter how many times those above quotes are used many will flat out deny it or twist it to say something totally different.

 

[JonNC]

But I don’t think we do all believe that Sacred Scripture is the source of truth. We believe that the Apostles, who received authority and truth from Christ, are the source of truth. The Bible is that part of the Apostolic faith committed to writing and was never meant to be exhaustive list of all truth given to us by Jesus Christ.

Steve,
I know, this could go round and round, but…

How would you know the Apostles received authority and truth from Christ were it not for scripture?

I don’t believe scripture is the exhaustive list of all truth given by Christ. I believe it is what we know with a certainty of faith. Clearly, Christ is not limied by any book, regardless of its inerrency. Scripture itself tells us there is much more. How do we know what that is, however?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Hello my brother. I agree Jesus left His word,but not strictly on Holy writ. The phrase," It is written" does not limit God’s Words to written words alone.

Agreed, but Ufamtobie makes the claim that Christ did not leave us the Bible. I certainly believe He did, and as I said to Steve, I know there is much more than we can know.

Jon

 

[just_came_back]

The Catholic Church, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and by the power deemed to her by Christ Himself, gave the world the Bible, all 73 books.

We wont be held responsible for what happened in 1519 and after.

 

[JonNC]

=joe370;10407656]Hey Jon, I did not find a response to the following; perhaps I overlooked your post. My response to your initial post:

I know that you belong to the universal, militant church on earth, (as all do, regardless of denomination) i.e. the fractured, mystical Body of Christ consisting of all of the isolated, autonomous churches. However, like me long ago, you do not yet, belong to the Catholic Church to which I now belong. If that is true then logically, the Catholic Church, in terms of supremacy and universal jurisdiction, has absolutely no jurisdiction over you or anyone within the fractured, mystical Body of Christ, not in full communion with the Catholic Church - right? The CC does not claim to have supremacy and universal jurisdiction over all the churches that comprise the fractured Mystical Body of Christ; just the one Catholic Church - agreed?

That the Bishop of Rome has no direct claim over us is true, but the Catholic Catechism states that: “Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.” Clearly, the CC see itself in charge even over us Reformationists.

Surely men like Irenaeus knew better than us:

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” Against Heresies 3:3:2 - AD 189.

And were that Church of which Irenaeus speaks still in unity…

Jon