Are you sure it isn’t 74, as Luther’s translation included, or maybe 77 as is the case in some sees of Orthodoxy?
Jon
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Jon
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joe370
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Hmm…I do not see it in that quote. The CC does not see itself as the custodian of the many PCs. That quote does not seem to suggest that the CC is in charge of those churches. It says that their power (all PCs) in terms of administering salvation, comes from the fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the CC by Jesus Christ i.e. Jesus’ Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as a means of salvation in spite of the fact that they are totally separated from the CC. In no way do these churches rely, directly, on the CC for anything, and yet they are also used as a means of salvation; pretty cool!
Well, perhaps it is…I guess there is no way for me to prove it to you in light of the 11th century east - west schism. That’s cool.
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Nicea325
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Well he most certainly left us His Words,but God used human writers as the means to transmit it to us.
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benjohnson
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Everybody forgets Tobit…
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aidanbradypop
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Poor Tobit lol
Luther wanted to reform the Catholic Church at first, but later on wanted nothing to do with it. Why do Lutherans get so upset when Catholics say that Lutherans are not a member of the Church of Christ on earth? It seems to me that if Lutherans do not want to be Catholic, then it would not upset them when Catholics state that. A Baptist does not want to be a part of the Catholic Church. They believe we are going to hell because we “worship idols and Mary.” They take no offense in not being into full communion with Christ’s Church. They do not believe the CC is even a Christian religion. lol
I do not know where you stand but all the Lutherans here get so mad when they cannot take Communion in the CC or get really upset when told they are not in full communion with the Church.
Its kind of like getting a divorce from your wife but still wanting to be part of the family.
Jon,Everybody forgets Tobit…
Luther wanted to reform the Catholic Church at first, but later on wanted nothing to do with it. Why do Lutherans get so upset when Catholics say that Lutherans are not a member of the Church of Christ on earth? It seems to me that if Lutherans do not want to be Catholic, then it would not upset them when Catholics state that. A Baptist does not want to be a part of the Catholic Church. They believe we are going to hell because we “worship idols and Mary.” They take no offense in not being into full communion with Christ’s Church. They do not believe the CC is even a Christian religion. lol
I do not know where you stand but all the Lutherans here get so mad when they cannot take Communion in the CC or get really upset when told they are not in full communion with the Church.
Its kind of like getting a divorce from your wife but still wanting to be part of the family.
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Stilldreamn
Guest
Confessional Lutherans (WELS, LCMS, others) practice close(d) communion as well and we absolutely understand restricting the Table to those who are in communion with us. I am sure that neither Jon, Ben nor myself are upset in the least. I come here to hang out with my long estranged brothers and sisters, maybe see if it’s OK to come back in the house after our parents split up
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aidanbradypop
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Good to hear! The majority of Lutherans in my area are ELCA. There are a few WELS, two LCMS, and a couple LCMC. I get the most flack from LCMC about Holy Eucharist.Confessional Lutherans (WELS, LCMS, others) practice close(d) communion as well and we absolutely understand restricting the Table to those who are in communion with us. I am sure that neither Jon, Ben nor myself are upset in the least. I come here to hang out with my long estranged brothers and sisters, maybe see if it’s OK to come back in the house after our parents split up
The LCMC are the ones that get upset with me on Sacred Tradition and where we place authority at.
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Stilldreamn
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To be honest, the lack of apostolic succession in the Lutheran church bothers me to some degree. I believe that the Holy Spirit is infallible and that He works through men in this world. The problem I have is trying to sort out who is being led and who is lying. I am uncomfortable with “changes” in doctrine - such as contraception is wrong for a couple thousand years, but now it’s a matter of conscience. Really? God changed His mind? Same with abortion, divorce, homosexuality, etc.
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aidanbradypop
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That would be taking authority away from Church and Scripture and placing it in the hands of the believer. It will always fail that way. :nope: A friend of mine left the ELCA after many years as a pastor for the sect. He joined the LCMC. ELCA has some kind of structure. Many Protestant denominations have none and key preach whatever and however they please.
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Stilldreamn
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The LCMS has a synodical convention every 3 years, and various resolutions and questions are decided on. Depending on the synod president (our bishop) these are enforced to a greater or lesser degree. Pastor Harrison, our current president has been working on getting an 85% agreement in practice and worship. So there is structure, although of a different type. I pray for the Holy Spirit to lead them so they can lead those of us that warm the pews on Sunday.
I hasten to add, my hope for salvation is in Christ’s death on the cross and His resurrection, and not a synod of men
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aidanbradypop
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I will pray for them as well!
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benjohnson
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Aidanbradypop, perhaps I can see why some of the things you hear from us Lutherans are perhaps a bit surprising (I hope in a good way) now that I understand that you’re surrounded with ELCA churches - keep in mind that a lot of the ELCA isn’t really Lutheran . Their original churches were Reformed churches that were forced by the government to take the name of the Lutheran church in the homeland.
LCMC churches are rather unique - a good portion of them were the more confessional churches in the ELCA that got tired of the ELCA going wobbly. It takes a lot of effort to split from the ELCA, so the LCMC churches tend to have more ‘active’ members that love a good confrontation now and then. Some are Lutheran, some are more Reformed - all of them reject the silly idea that Jesus is a social justice leader and rightfully think of him as our Savior.
As for the Catholic Eucharist - I appreciate the care that Catholics take to ensure that no one “eats and drinks judgement upon themselves.” We do the very much the same in the the LCMS.
I have to admit that It’s odd to hear it when you say Luther didn’t want to have anything to do with the Catholic church - because fundamentally Luther thought of himself as part of the catholic church. Just not in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
LCMC churches are rather unique - a good portion of them were the more confessional churches in the ELCA that got tired of the ELCA going wobbly. It takes a lot of effort to split from the ELCA, so the LCMC churches tend to have more ‘active’ members that love a good confrontation now and then. Some are Lutheran, some are more Reformed - all of them reject the silly idea that Jesus is a social justice leader and rightfully think of him as our Savior.
As for the Catholic Eucharist - I appreciate the care that Catholics take to ensure that no one “eats and drinks judgement upon themselves.” We do the very much the same in the the LCMS.
I have to admit that It’s odd to hear it when you say Luther didn’t want to have anything to do with the Catholic church - because fundamentally Luther thought of himself as part of the catholic church. Just not in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
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aidanbradypop
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Ben…so what if the LCMS decided to make Sacred Tradition equal to Sacred Scripture and no longer give Scripture the sole authority? What would be your take on that?
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mackbrislawn
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That’s true. Heck, I wasn’t motivated until I was challenged. I was blissful in my igorance.
Our pastor gives truly excellent presentations on the bible and church history, but only 7 or 8 attend!
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mackbrislawn
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Not from scripture but from the Church.
For us we believe the Apostles received authority from Christ simply because of Church teaching. The Church in turn has accepted the scriptures as from the apostles or their followers. All begins with Church, of which Christ is the head and also His body.
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benjohnson
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As it is, we really accept other authority - we accept tradition, councils, creeds for example. We only use scripture to correct if the other authority contracts it.
But if the LCMS started to use other authority other than the Word of God as the final norm, and rule of our faith, I would suspect that it’s leaders are up to something and had desires of their own.
It isn’t that we’re upset when Catholics say it. It’s just that it isn’t true, and the Catholic Catechism seems to say the statement isn’t true. Regardless, we are apart of His Church. What baptists say is irrelevent, quite frankly, as far as Lutherans are concerned, in this discussion.
I don’t get mad regarding this. I, like Pope Benedict, think it is a sad state of affairs for the Church that we cannot now share the same table to receive His body and blood. In fact, as has been stated, we understand it, just like we hope you understand the same close communion policy that we have.
Of course we still want to be in the same family, since that is what Christ calls for. Hope you do, too.
Jon
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SteveVH
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We know it through Sacred Tradition and from the writings of the early Fathers. I am aware of the arguments that the sacred texts had been floating around the Church for years and that everyone already agreed on what was inspired and what wasn’t, but the fact is that over 400 documents were considered and only 27 chosen. The Church flourished under the faith handed down by the Apostles for nearly 400 years before we had an official Bible.
By trusting in the Church Jesus founded and trusting his promises concerning it.
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