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SteveVH
Guest
Don’t mean to answer for Mack, but I anticipate I will be asked the same thing. Do you believe that the Church didn’t know about the Apostolic authority and truth it possessed until the Bible was written?
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Ok. We agree on the importance of the ECF’s, and the early councils, but I’m not talking about an official Bible. And Lutherans recognize the process of the selection process. In fact, our rather conservative approach to handling the disputed texts (disputed in by some of those same ECF’s), in relation to the attested texts If there were no written scripture, how would we know?
Which part of that Church, Steve? The one patriarch that stands alone, or the others that stand in unity?
For the Lutheran in me, that is the real crux of the matter.
Jon
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joe370
Guest
Hey Jon. Via apostolic succession. From the very beginning we see a structure of ordination (in the NT) so that truth could be passed on in a trustworthy manner, from one generation of leaders to the next, and we see this taking place during the apostolic age, within the Catholic Church. Pretty cool! The purpose of apostolic succession (pretty obvious and necessary, considering mankind’s penchant for division and chaos): the preservation of doctrinal truth; in this hypothetical case, knowing, with certainty, that the Apostles received authority and truth from Christ. The following example of apostolic succession could explain how it would be possible; of course it would have to continue through every generation: “What you have heard from me (knowledge that the Apostles received authority and truth from Christ) before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” That’s three generations of apostolic succession, beginning with an apostle: Paul’s generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation of his successors. The biblical authors and their successors, certainly understood the importance of ordination via the laying on of hands as a means of faithfully preserving doctrinal truth so that all generations could avail themselves.
God of course gets all the credit for the preservation. One thin I noticed long ago: Paul did not entrust his teachings to the many witnesses…just certain faithful men who were to do the same…That among other things, got me questioning sola scriptura!
Joe,
All of this doesn’t answer the question. How would you there *were *apostles and their successors without the written word?
Jon
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joe370
Guest
We would know there were apostles because the apostles’ successors would tell their successors who would in turn do the same, and this would continue until the present time. The only difference in this hypothetical: no Bible.
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SteveVH
Guest
We would know by the very life of our Church; its liturgies, its sacraments, its doctrines, its teachings, its Catechism, its wealth of historical documents, its works of mercy…
As you know, I cannot give an answer here with which you will agree. My answer, of course, would be the Catholic Church, the only Church that can show succession back to Peter, the head of the Apostles, the one to which the keys to the kingdom of heaven were given and to whom the other Apostles submitted.
lol. Are you not the least bit concerned about the frailty of this approach, continuing with the hypothetical of no scripture.We would know there were apostles because the apostles’ successors would tell their successors who would in turn do the same, and this would continue until the present time. The only difference in this hypothetical: no Bible.
Jon
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aidanbradypop
Guest
I like mt family and my wife is a good cook lol.
I would love for everyone to be one church and one faith in Christ.
I would love for everyone to be one church and one faith in Christ.
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joe370
Guest
I would hate it LOL… for I love reading the Bible every single day. It’s your hypothetical brother. LOL…lol. Are you not the least bit concerned about the frailty of this approach, continuing with the hypothetical of no scripture.
Jon
However, if it had been the way God chose to do things, I would never question the frailty of the approach, for nothing is impossible for God - Right? 
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joe370
Guest
Sadly, there are major obstacles to that dream come true: sola scriptura via individual interpretation, autonomous church (man, as opposed to God) tradition, regardless of denomination, the rejection of church authority, regarding the one church founded by God, and finally, disseminated disinformation/misinformation regarding Jesus’ church.
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cheezey
Guest
Right!I would hate it LOL… for I love reading the Bible every single day. It’s your hypothetical brother. LOL…
I have had so many questions about this subject; I am just an observer of this thread, which I am enjoying, and may it be said, it is the most courteous discussion I am reading. (and the list is quite lengthy!!)
Nive going, everyone…
Continue…
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Howdy Jon,Since my name is Jose, which can be translated as Joe, I’d like to participate
.The same way it happened for the first 400 years or so brother. The same way the Apostles travelled to other cities and Churches spreading the Word and designating others to remain in charge and then send more in the same manner.
We would still need to deal with the OT (I know you’ll probably ask
), but we also know that there was no such thing as a definite Jewish Canon at the time of our Lord and His Apostles. There was a collection of writings, which were used by Jesus and the Apostles. And it is by them that those writings hold the authority bestowed by God. Not by themselves, but because of Jesus and the Apostles.You know how much I love Scriptures and I am ever so grateful for my years in Protestantism and Reformed Theology because they awaken my love for the written Word. But the written Word made me realize the importance of a Teaching Authority and that this authority is what makes the Scriptures what they are. There is no other Church on the planet that has guarded what we know as the Bible better than the Catholic Church, the chosen Stewart for them.
Glory be to God,
Peace brother,
Jose
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mackbrislawn
Guest
For centuries people knew this without scripture. They knew it from the teaching of the Church. And the Church simply assumed the apostles were from God. That is the basic assumption and premise the Church works from. Heck, if the apostles were not from God, the writings they wrote would not be from God either and would not be scripture.
Joe370 had a good answer, and I suppose there is frailty in that approach. But that is all we have, like it or not, because it would be circular to decide the apostles were from God simply by reading their own writings.
Unless you believe in miracles worked by the saints of the Church throughout the ages. That forms a sort of divine assurance for those who believe in them.
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Nicea325
Guest
Hello my friend. The only issue I have such an approach is that it seems to be built on a faulty premise: The church and everything tied with it came only AFTER we had the Bible in possession.
Yes the OT existed but the church was founded before any NT writing was penned.
It isn’t the possibilities with god that concern me, but the historic reputation of the human race.I would hate it LOL… for I love reading the Bible every single day. It’s your hypothetical brother. LOL…
Jon
Thanks, Jose. You make some good points.
Since my name is Jose, which can be translated as Joe, I’d like to participate
The same way it happened for the first 400 years or so brother. The same way the Apostles travelled to other cities and Churches spreading the Word and designating others to remain in charge and then send more in the same manner.
We would still need to deal with the OT (I know you’ll probably ask
You know how much I love Scriptures and I am ever so grateful for my years in Protestantism and Reformed Theology because they awaken my love for the written Word. But the written Word made me realize the importance of a Teaching Authority and that this authority is what makes the Scriptures what they are. There is no other Church on the planet that has guarded what we know as the Bible better than the Catholic Church, the chosen Stewart for them.
Glory be to God,
Peace brother,
Jose
Jon
True, Mack, very true. They did, however, have the apostles themselves and their disciples - one, perahps even 5 generations removed.
That you suppose the frailty is refreshing. Perhaps we on the other side of the Tiber ought to recognize that it is not so frail as we might think.
Jon
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mackbrislawn
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We’re ganging up on you, Jon.
Because Nicea has a good point: that the faulty premise is that the church came only after we had the Bible in possession.
It’s this way. You ask me: Mack how do you know about the apostles? I answer, from the Church. You reply, well, okay, but where did the Church know about them, since, obviously, the only way for the Church to know is by scripture. I then say, no, not at all. The Church knew about the apostles from the apostles themselves. Because it was the apostles that created the Church and the present Church is simply a continuation of the one founded by Jesus through the apostles.
After all, Christian scripture was written by apostles. So how could the Church have determined what writings were by apostles unless the Church already knew about the apostles and who they were?
Not at all. At least I didn’t intend that. I was more thinking on the hypothetical that the Apostles had chosen to write nothing. Clearly Christ established the Church on Pentecost, before the writing had probably begun.
Jon
For those who seem to think, and often complain, that Catholics at CAF attack and don’t dialogue, just take a look at the level of charitable dialogue in the last number of posts. I my premise (hypothetical) strikes right at the importance of Tradition for Catholics!!
Thanks, guys.
Jon
Thanks, guys.
Jon
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