Bible Christian trying to save a Catholic

[eric3141]

A side note: My neighbor has invited me to his church. We said we would need to the vigil Mass on Saturday and then to theirs on Sunday (we do not want to go at all.) They laughed and thought it was weird to fulfill an obligation.

Another side note: He was embarassed to find me finding his daughter sharing chic tracks with my daughters.

Dude! This guy is seriously, seriously out to convert you. Chick tracts are extremely anti-Catholic. Why expose your children to the false doctrine at his church? This guy’s daughters (or his Church) are going to tell your kids they aren’t “saved” and therefore aren’t christians and plant doubt in their mind about the truth of the Catholic church. If you want to dialogue with the guy then go for it but my 2 cents is not to expose your kids to it as they are unprepared and less sure of their faith than you.

PS: He is not interested in ecumenical dialogue. I would be shocked if he were willing to go to mass. He’s not trying to get to know Catholicism. He’s out to convert you and ruin your soul.

 

[SFLCatholic]

I’d like ot put in my two cents on this subject which flabbergasts me to no end. And would also like some help in interpreting a verse.

I have often wondered how it is that Bible Christians can claim the Bible as the sole source of all when John himself said that all of what Jesus did could not be contained in these books. This verse has always stuck in my mind but I have never heard it used as an argument against Sola Scriptura.

“There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.” John 21:25

My reading of this is that John is saying that many things Jesus did we can understand better through tradition. Its akin to saying a picture is worth a thousand words.

But its also an argument that the Bible is not the sole source of Christian belief. Otherwise why would those “many other things” have been left out? Were these things John was talking about become forms of traditional worship? He was there, I guess he would know.

I’d like to incorporate this in my arsenal against Bible Christian arguments.

Any thoughts?

As far as him asking you to go to his church or Bible Study, make it contingent on his promise to attend a Catholic mass.

 

[JaneFrances]

I have a suggestion. Don’t do a “Bible Study.” For you to agree to a “Bible Study” indicates, in a way, that the Bible is the only thing worthy of study, or in less extreme cases, the only thing with final authority. Which, by the way, is actually an odd notion as most, if not all Bible Studies are based on a commentary from an extra-Biblical source. Nobody, no matter how strongly they argue it, appeals to the Bible alone or even finally. In the end, they all appeal to their own acceptance of a particular translation, interpretation, etc.

If indeed you intend to procede in discussing issues of religion and theology with your Fundamentalist Bible Protestant Neighbor, it would be in your best interest to begin the discussion with an understanding that while the Bible is holy and God inspired, it is not, in fact, the only source of truth (Col. 1:24).

The practical truth of the matter is that no matter how well your neighbor knows his Bible, he only understands it as he has been instructed to. He may certainly say that the Holy Spirit has been his teacher, but the wide variety of theological traditions taught by “the Holy Spirit” should be indication enough that either the Holy Spirit is not a very effective teacher OR the Holy Spirit has some sort of a multiple personality disorder.

The reality is that he believes A, B, C because someone he trusts taught him A, B, and C. Your job is not to destroy his faith, but to challenge him to examine the reasons he believes A, B, and C. Are they consistent with historical Christianity? Did the Early Church Fathers teach A, B, and C? Why are A, B, and C “essential” and D, E, F aren’t? Who says? Why do you trust them?

And as you begin discussions with your neighbor, boost discussions with your children. Empower them. Educate them. Let them learn from your experience. Give them the information they need to answer the questions you may have to walk away to figure out.

And. . .OH MY GOODNESS, do not attend a Protestant service without your neighbor agreeing to attend Mass!

 

[eric3141]

I have often wondered how it is that Bible Christians can claim the Bible as the sole source of all when John himself said that all of what Jesus did could not be contained in these books. This verse has always stuck in my mind but I have never heard it used as an argument against Sola Scriptura.

“There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.” John 21:25

Because Protestants started by protesting the authority of Rome. They knew they couldn’t explicitly claim they each were an authority (or Pope! smile!) unto themselves so they had to look elsewhere for that authority. So they chose to believe the Bible is their “authority”. Of course no book (even a divinely inspired one) can have authority as only persons can have authority – but they start from the false presupposition that no human can have doctrinal authority over them which leads them to their false conclusion.

 

[eric3141]

Chick publications are the lowest of the low. He may have seemed embarrassed, and yet his daughters had them and were sharing them, hmmm, sounds like he was embarrassed they were caught.

I have a Protestant pastor friend who disagrees with the Catholic church on a great many things. But even he thinks they’re very unfair and outright spread lies about the Catholic church. It’s one thing to accurately state the position of the Church then disagree with it – it’s quite another to invent all sorts of vile lies about the Church that have nothing to back them up.

Another Protestant clergy friend of mine described the author of these as “whacko” (I think that’s the term he used).

 

[JaneFrances]

Dude! This guy is seriously, seriously out to convert you. Chick tracts are extremely anti-Catholic. Why expose your children to the false doctrine at his church? This guy’s daughters (or his Church) are going to tell your kids they aren’t “saved” and therefore aren’t christians and plant doubt in their mind about the truth of the Catholic church.

I think I may have missed this point. . .under NO circumstances should your children attend your neighbor’s services!!! This is MOST dangerous scenario. You would be walking your children into the mouth of the dragon (no, Protestants aren’t evil, it’s a figure of speech. . .get a grip!). This act would indicate to your children that you believe going to a Protestant church is “okay,” especially if you are altering your normal Sunday obligation to attend. Once it becomes “okay,” it becomes good. Once it is a good thing, then it is a short distance before it becomes as good as Mass or even better. It is a slippery slope.

 

[Tom317]

**Avoid even the near occasion to sin **and put on the whole armor of God.

I would not attend, I would thank him and I would give him strong apologetic materials, yet I would avoid that trap.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

(…)

A side note: My neighbor has invited me to his church. We said we would need to the vigil Mass on Saturday and then to theirs on Sunday (we do not want to go at all.) They laughed and thought it was weird to fulfill an obligation.

Another side note: He was embarassed to find me finding his daughter sharing chic tracks with my daughters. He nervously explained away that not all of it is good. I had never seen one before. 2 pages in showed the Pope collecting money for a new gymnasium at the Vatican.

(…)

The Chick Tract thing would be a deal breaker for me, especially his kids sharing with mine. They are factually wrong, never mind theologically wrong. That he gives these any credibility gives a great deal of insight to what he really thinks of Catholics, which is “not much”.

I’m not sure how I would proceed but I wouldn’t go to the bible study…unless I had someone along side me with the equivalent to his Bible college degree (and that could be any seasoned apologist - there are a few on this board) nor go to his services…unless he was willing to go to yours.

I agree that his intention is to save your soul. I would try to have that in the forefront of my mind and be gracious when I decline his offers.

 

[Mike_Brick]

I have a suggestion…The reality is that he believes A, B, C because someone he trusts taught him A, B, and C. Your job is not to destroy his faith, but to challenge him to examine the reasons he believes A, B, and C. Are they consistent with historical Christianity? Did the Early Church Fathers teach A, B, and C? Why are A, B, and C “essential” and D, E, F aren’t? Who says? Why do you trust them?

I really like JaneFrances’ line of thinking as quoted above. I would highly recommend you buy your neighbor a book titled, The Four Witnesses, The Early Church in Her own Words, by Rod Bennett, I believe published by Ignatius Press. It is a delightful story by Bennett, then a Baptist guy who was searching for the worship and beliefs of the early Christians. He promised God if he could find out what that was he would become a part of that way. Much to his dismay he found the Catholic Church, and in keeping his promise was welcomed into the Church shortly after his findings became clear to him, even before his book was published. The book is about four of the very Early Church Fathers, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Justin Martyr and Ireneaus of Lyon. You can probably find this excellent book cheap at www.half.com. I stongly recommend you buy this as a gift for him!

Peace

 

[mark_a]

My next door neighbor is a fundamentalist Bible Christian who has a doctorate from a “Bible” school. He wants me to come over for a bible study just me and him. He knows I am Catholic.

We were talking about all of the denominations and what “truth” is and who has the authority and what to do when there is disagreement. He believes everything we need to know is in the Bible only. He explained to me that there are a set of core Christian beliefs that renders you a Christian or not. All the other stuff is minor. He explains that there are only a few different denominations that adhere to the core beliefs. He said all of our differences (at least with the Protestants) are the different parts of the body of Christ. for example, He said that Presbyterians see well but Baptist can walk.

Am I missing something? How do I begin to talk with him when we meet? (against Fr. Serpa’s advice, of course, as heard on Catholic Answers Live a week or so ago.)

Do we talk about Peter’s Primacy, the Sacraments, Matthew 16, the Eucharist?

Praying for advice and hoping the Spirit will speak through someone on this forum. .

My guess is he has no intention of doing a “bible study” with you. He intends to lead this study.

In my opinion, moral teachings are a slam dunk. Arguing theology with someone like your neighbor, who obviously has a lot invested in his own particular belief system, is a no win situation.

Ask him where in the bible it is written that contraception is ok.

THANKS, Brian (4life4NFP) papa2eight

I love your signature.

 

[JimG]

He believes everything we need to know is in the Bible only.

In that case, tell him that since you already have a bible, you will be just fine.

After all, you read the bible, and it is sufficient, isn’t that his belief? Why would you need anything more from him?

 

[Bishopite]

My next door neighbor is a fundamentalist Bible Christian who has a doctorate from a “Bible” school. He wants me to come over for a bible study just me and him. He knows I am Catholic.

We were talking about all of the denominations and what “truth” is and who has the authority and what to do when there is disagreement. He believes everything we need to know is in the Bible only. He explained to me that there are a set of core Christian beliefs that renders you a Christian or not. All the other stuff is minor. He explains that there are only a few different denominations that adhere to the core beliefs. He said all of our differences (at least with the Protestants) are the different parts of the body of Christ. for example, He said that Presbyterians see well but Baptist can walk.

Am I missing something? How do I begin to talk with him when we meet? (against Fr. Serpa’s advice, of course, as heard on Catholic Answers Live a week or so ago.)

Do we talk about Peter’s Primacy, the Sacraments, Matthew 16, the Eucharist?

Praying for advice and hoping the Spirit will speak through someone on this forum. THANKS, Brian (4life4NFP) papa2eight.

Ask him how he knows there should be 27 books in the New Testament?
The Catholic Church recognized those infallible books, it authoritatively recognized the canon of scripture.
Ask him who wrote the book of Hebrews and since he can’t say who, ask him how he knows it is part of scripture?

And those Christian leaders who were the next generations of disciples of the Apostles (who were taught by Jesus) didn’t have theology like his fundamentalism; they didn’t believe in scripture alone as their only authority. They relied on their leaders (who were of course Catholic), Heb 13:17 and that the “Church” is the pillar and support of truth…1 Tim 3:15.

And finally, please direct him to the Catholic Answers Forums, we would like to talk to him!

 

[utunumsint]

Why don’t you ask him to continue his Bible study online, here, in the Catholic Apologetics forum… I mean, if his beliefs are so obviously true, he should have no problem here…

Opps. Bishopite beat me to the punch…

Ut

 

[guanophore]

My next door neighbor is a fundamentalist Bible Christian who has a doctorate from a “Bible” school. He wants me to come over for a bible study just me and him. He knows I am Catholic.

We were talking about all of the denominations and what “truth” is and who has the authority and what to do when there is disagreement. He believes everything we need to know is in the Bible only. He explained to me that there are a set of core Christian beliefs that renders you a Christian or not. All the other stuff is minor. He explains that there are only a few different denominations that adhere to the core beliefs. He said all of our differences (at least with the Protestants) are the different parts of the body of Christ. for example, He said that Presbyterians see well but Baptist can walk.

Am I missing something? How do I begin to talk with him when we meet? (against Fr. Serpa’s advice, of course, as heard on Catholic Answers Live a week or so ago.)

Do we talk about Peter’s Primacy, the Sacraments, Matthew 16, the Eucharist?

Praying for advice and hoping the Spirit will speak through someone on this forum. THANKS, Brian (4life4NFP) papa2eight.

I would recommend that you spend some time on the forum first. You can get acquainted with the types of statements sola scripturas make, and how they are answered here. I also recommend that you spend time in the CAF library and read up on some of the main areas where protestants “protest”.

 

[Tom317]

I think it is very nearly impossible to have a productive conversation or debate with a person like your neighbot. They are out to take you from the “evil Catholic faith” and bring you into a “glorious born again saved status” that they believe they have. There is really nothing you will say, do or proposed that can get through to a person like that, it is a conversion that must left in God’s hands.

I strongly advise that everyone (except those who are deeply formed in the faith and have very strong personalities) to stay away from such endeavors…it can only harm you or those around you. I believe “apologetics” is an abused tactic, often used by the wrong people (not everyone is called to do apologetics in a person-to-person way).

Avoid even the occasion of sin–doing Catholic apologetics can often lead people into sin when they are not deeply formed, or do not have the proper personality.

 

[Cat]

Make sure you don’t slam a door. The Catechism tells us that we are to try to maintain dialogue with non-Catholics if possible.

Leave the door open so that your neighbor can see your life and therefore, see Christ and the Catholic Church. I can guarantee you that one of the main reasons Protestants get interested in Catholicism is because of the loving, faithful witness of their Catholic acquaintances!

My suggestion is to tell him that you’re really not interested in a Bible study, but that you would be happy to share a weekly prayer time with him. This would be a great way to come together in the Lord and agree on various prayer intentions (he will call them “requests”) or simply to just praise God together. It would also be something that you could do in a short time, so it wouldn’t take up hours of your evening. I predict that a lot of fruit would come of such a “prayer partnership.”

Another thing you could do is attend Christian concerts with him, if these are offered in your community. Christian rock or pop music would be good if you both enjoy these. If you don’t, there are usually some really good classical concerts featuring great Christian pieces like Handel’s Messiah or anything by J.S. Bach. Sometimes these concerts are held in churches that are offensive to both fundamentalists and Catholics, so you’ll have to get over that. (They’re held there because the church has a good pipe organ, or enough seating, or most likely, the church is much cheaper than the community concert hall or theater!)

This would be a fun and useful way for both of you to enjoy fellowship with each other and with God.

One more suggestion: if you have the time to do a “study,” see if he is willing to do a read-study of C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. This seems to be a book that both Catholics and Protestants can agree on.

 

[CB_Catholic]

My next door neighbor is a fundamentalist Bible Christian who has a doctorate from a “Bible” school. He wants me to come over for a bible study just me and him. He knows I am Catholic.

We were talking about all of the denominations and what “truth” is and who has the authority and what to do when there is disagreement. He believes everything we need to know is in the Bible only. He explained to me that there are a set of core Christian beliefs that renders you a Christian or not. All the other stuff is minor. He explains that there are only a few different denominations that adhere to the core beliefs. He said all of our differences (at least with the Protestants) are the different parts of the body of Christ. for example, He said that Presbyterians see well but Baptist can walk.

Am I missing something? How do I begin to talk with him when we meet? (against Fr. Serpa’s advice, of course, as heard on Catholic Answers Live a week or so ago.)

Do we talk about Peter’s Primacy, the Sacraments, Matthew 16, the Eucharist?

Praying for advice and hoping the Spirit will speak through someone on this forum. THANKS, Brian (4life4NFP) papa2eight.

IMO, unless you are thoroughly grounded in your faith and are familiar with Scripture, and have spent a lot of time studying, you will end up embarrassed and confused by such a “Bible Study.” I have been in this position, as a person who was seduced into fundamentalism by such tactics. I don’t mean to imply that your neighbor is not sincere, he really believes that he has the whole truth, but his aim is not to get you to study the Bible with him, it is to convert you to his beliefs. It took me a long time and considerable study to straighten out my spiritual life and come back wholly to the Catholic Church.

This person knows what he believes, and furthermore, he knows why he believes it, even though he may be sincerely wrong. So unless you are approaching the same level as he is on, in your Catholic faith, it is better to decline his offer graciously, and then get busy educating yourself and familiarizing yourself with Scripture. You don’t need a degree in theology or biblical studies, you just need to know your faith. And you also need to become familiar with fundamentalism and what it teaches. Then you will be confident enough and strong enough to withstand his conversion attempts. God bless.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

“All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Hopefully you can wrap this up with this argument alone.

Luther’s Bible does not use the word ‘useful’; it uses the word ‘sufficient’. So let’s proceed on the basis of ‘useful.’ Your neighbour will be happy with that concession.

1. The Scripture in existence at the time this was spoken was the Old Testament. The books of the New Testament had not yet been written.
2. If all Scriptures were ‘sufficient’ at that time, then the New Testament was added and therefore redundant to the already existing sufficiency.

 

[4life4nfp]

Great advice on leaving the door open. God converts. I only pray that I can plant a seed, even if it is by actions alone. Today, he asked me what I would like to study with him. A certain book of the bible like 2 Peter or an exegesis where we draw from many different books. I asked what he thought about the book of Revelation. He did not seem comfortable. Any recommendation on a book or topic? Or just focus on which came first , the Bible or the Church, OR “Multiple personalities of the Holy Spirit.” ← too funny! I told him I had 8 - 10 translations of the Bible. He said he uses The New King James right now. He said all translations have error in them. (interesting.) He never heard of the Douay Rheims. He said he is getting a Puritan Bible that was recently updated and printed. hmmm. I never heard of it.

Thank you everyone for such great advice. God is so awesome!

I do believe I am firmly rooted in the faith. My wife is also and would tie me up in the closet if I even thought of leaving Peter. I pray that I persevere to the end.

I do believe Apologetics is for everyone. See 1 Peter 3:15.

 

[KofC660]

Avoid Bible study with Protestants like the plague. You don’t have to avoid your neighbor like he has the plague, just his Bible study.

Protestants treat Bible study like a “parlor game”, where quoting Scripture and tying pieces together is a “neat trick”, that will leave you confused, or convinced of something that just isn’t true, just as you would be by a delft magician’s card tricks.

The only “Bible study” you should be doing is in a strictly controlled Catholic Christian setting, and the best place for that is daily Mass!

The only time you should trust “Joe from across the street” to lead you in Bible study is when Joe’s last name is Ratzinger, and you live in Vatican City!