Bible Christian trying to save a Catholic

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My orthodox Pastor, who I dialouge with often, suggested I go for it.

“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:20-21).

My neighbor will point out that the Holy Spirit inspires men to know the truth in the bible. I am sure he will say there is only one truth. When disagreements occur, somebody is wrong. Which Bible verse or ECF should I use to show the Church, the Catholic Church, is who the Holy Spirit guides and aides in interpretation? (Not individuals denominations or schismatics.)

Also, What “core truths” might he believe that disagrees with the magesterium?

Just getting prepared… even for a passing conversation.

He always talks about “when I got saved…” or “before I was a Christian…” (He was raised Episcopal.) I am tempted to share when I was saved at 4 months old and how I am being saved and hope to be saved. Then we may get into justification (Imputed vs. infused.) <— Would that be getting too deep to quick?

thanks!!
 
4life4nfp said:
Then we may get into justification (Imputed vs. infused.) <— Would that be getting too deep to quick?

thanks!!
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Well, you do seem well informed, but just know that there’s not much you can do to de-programme is already washed brain.

As for Imputed V Infused justification, ABSOLUTELY too deep too quick!

The first thing might have to tackle is calling Our Lady “Mother of God”. If you tear down his defenses against Our Lady, she is sure to pray that the Holy Spirit starts his conversion!
 
I told him I had 8 - 10 translations of the Bible. He said he uses The New King James right now. He said all translations have error in them. (interesting.) He never heard of the Douay Rheims. He said he is getting a Puritan Bible that was recently updated and printed. hmmm. I never heard of it.
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Probably the Geneva Bible. Actually, it was the Bible that inspired the making of the King James Bible, because it was awash with commentary that was anti- Anglican, as well as anti-monarchy. The translation itself wasn’t the problem for the British, it was the commentary. (I’m Methodist, and I wouldn’t want to go to a study based on the Geneva Bible. To me, its more of an historic artefact than a Bible…too Presbyterian for me. ).

I’m betting he was surprised that you have all those Bibles!! By the sound of things, he has been taught that Catholics don’t read the Bible at all, much less study it…
I’m liking this guy less & less…His kids are handing your kids Chick tracts?? Come on, that is outside of enough.
I think your main thing, is going to be to convince him that you are, in fact, a Christian, because he doesn’t believe that. You can do that without a Bible study, which is probably, as has been mentioned, not so much a Bible study as a try at conversion. I do love the idea of studying:thumbsup: C S Lewis’ Mere Christianity!! There is a book that is good for all of us to read & really learn about other Christian believers.
 
be calm , start with a prayer.most of all be honest if you can’t answer any particular question don’t try and bluff your way out of it, tell him you will get back to him with the proper answer, finally he is probably more scared than you are . God bless.👍
 
If you do talk religion with him, don’t ever forget that neither you nor the Catholic Church is on trial. He is not a prosecutor, and don’t let him assume that role. Your faith tradition is 2000 years old, his is only one-quarter as old (and splintered a thousand ways).

What I’m saying is don’t assume his role is to attack and your role is to defend. Insist that this be a conversation among equals.
 
4life4nfp said:
Great advice on leaving the door open. God converts. I only pray that I can plant a seed, even if it is by actions alone. Today, he asked me what I would like to study with him.
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A certain book of the bible like 2 Peter or an exegesis where we draw from many different books. I asked what he thought about the book of Revelation. He did not seem comfortable. Any recommendation on a book or topic? Or just focus on which came first , the Bible or the Church, OR “Multiple personalities of the Holy Spirit.” ← too funny! I told him I had 8 - 10 translations of the Bible. He said he uses The New King James right now. He said all translations have error in them. (interesting.) He never heard of the Douay Rheims. He said he is getting a Puritan Bible that was recently updated and printed. hmmm. I never heard of it.

Thank you everyone for such great advice. God is so awesome!

I do believe I am firmly rooted in the faith. My wife is also and would tie me up in the closet if I even thought of leaving Peter. I pray that I persevere to the end.

I do believe Apologetics is for everyone. See 1 Peter 3:15.I think the wisest course of study is a topical one and that you resolve the issue of Sola Scriptura before going anywhere else with the study.

If you are already familiar with John Martignoni’s Bible studies then you know there are several that you can use as a basis.
Sola Scriptura - The Bible Alone? & Notes.
Which Came First, the Church or the Bible?
Catholics and the Bible & Notes.

This issue is the fundamental basis for virtually every other n-C belief and the fact that it is in itself an error of unBiblical teaching has never even occurred to most of them, and they react accordingly.

I would most definitely recommend that as your starting place because without that you will both come at your discussions from divergent points.
 
Have you considered checking into material from Evangelicals and Catholics Together? I’m pretty certain that Chuck Colson’s wonderful book, Being the Body has a study guide. This would be an excellent book to study.

Another suggestion: If you don’t have one already, buy a concordance and use it. There are Catholic concordances. You can bet your Rosary that your neighbor has one, probably several, and he’ll use them constantly to find Bible verses and passages. Don’t be left in the dust.

Whatever you do, show love. If he attacks you or your church, bring him a casserole the next day.
 
I’m in the camp that thinks we are to dialogue with our fellow Christians. Yes, your neighbor is looking to save/convert you. God bless him for it! The door-to-door JW’s and SDA’s are also looking to save us. Heaven only knows why we Catholics, so confident and sometimes even boastful amongst ourselves (that we have the fullness of truth and the authority of the Holy Spirit), do not share the same desire to “save” our neighbors. My daughter asks me often why Catholics don’t feel strongly enough about the faith to go door-to-door. “We want them to be Catholic too, don’t we?” she says.

Are we (those urging you to avoid religious discourse like the plague) forgetting that the Holy Spirit may be responsible for the interest your neighbor and his daughters have in you and yours?

There are so many places to start the discussion. But first, pray fervently that the Holy Spirit guides your words and opens his mind (and yours, for that matter).

Then, you can start by telling him you are troubled by the misinformation in the tracts. Do a little research to adequately answer the misinformation. Assure him that you have every confidence in the Catholic Church’s ability to stand up to scrutiny and that you only want to tackle one topic at a time. This is also good advice for people willing to allow JW’s and SDA’s into their homes as they often try diversionary tactics if one topic is not successful.

On the other hand, you can suggest to him exchanging books to read for a future discussion. He can give you 2-3 titles and you can give him 2-3 (Catholicism vs Fundamentalism, Scott Hahn, etc).

Right now, you aren’t looking to convert him. You are looking to open his mind to the possibility that some of what we teach is correct and that some of what he thinks he knows about Catholicism is completely erroneous. The Holy Spirit converts. We are His vehicles. What an awesome and humbling reality.

Your neighbor is also your brother and we are our brother’s keeper.
 
Church Militant:
I think the wisest course of study is a topical one and that you resolve the issue of Sola Scriptura before going anywhere else with the study.
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I agree with CM. He has given you some links. And there are some other good links on this thread.

Even if you were to read up to the PhD level on your Catechism, it still might not make a bit of difference to your neighbour. BTW, do not be intimidated by his credentials. They could very well be from a good school. On the other hand there is an unfortunate trend of handing out degrees from non-accredited colleges.

The strongest apologetics tool that a Catholic has is a life lived in faith. No words.

CM is right about Sola Scriptura. You can get some good resources from the Catholic Answers Library. Just use the search window. And here are some good threads which have turned up recently. You may have to scroll down to find some good arguments. You can also use your search window to find more.

Sola Scriptura: How much of the Bible must be read for a person to be saved?

Can Sola Scriptura change?

Sola Scriptura – The most critical thing which folks need to interpret is love – not text

st pauls lost letters

“Private Interpretation” Question

Is Sola Scriptura ever really practiced?

Did Jesus write the Bible or build a church?

Romanus Pontifex (closed then continued next)

On slavery: natural law versus sola scriptura
 
dranzal said:
I’m in the camp that thinks we are to dialogue with our fellow Christians…Your neighbor is also your brother and we are our brother’s keeper.
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This is true. But there is the question of pacing. Since Catholicism is a relationship faith, it is better to build up a friendship with the neighbour first. That way there are boundaries and safeguards should a Sola Scriptura discussion erupt.

There are plenty of productive points of contact which do not include Apologetics. Works of faith, for instance. Helping the homeless, pro-life, even helping the environment. Hockey.
 
VociMike said:
If you do talk religion with him, don’t ever forget that neither you nor the Catholic Church is on trial. He is not a prosecutor, and don’t let him assume that role. Your faith tradition is 2000 years old, his is only one-quarter as old (and splintered a thousand ways).

What I’m saying is don’t assume his role is to attack and your role is to defend. Insist that this be a conversation among equals.
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I like VociMike’s advice, it puts your task into proper perspective! And when you don’t know or are unsure of the correct answer, say that and take time to do the research. But you are sharing your knowledge of the faith, you are not expected to be a spoksman for the Church.

In post #41 you wrote:

“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:20-21).

My neighbor will point out that the Holy Spirit inspires men to know the truth in the bible. I am sure he will say there is only one truth. When disagreements occur, somebody is wrong. Which Bible verse or ECF should I use to show the Church, the Catholic Church, is who the Holy Spirit guides and aides in interpretation? (Not individuals denominations or schismatics.)".

That gives you the perfect opportunity to ask your friend if he sincerely believes that, and if he does why does it appear to the spectators that the Holy Spirit guides different “believers” onto different paths, (all using the same source, the Bible “alone”), which has to led to +30,000 so called Christian denominations when before the reformation there was one Church. And we all know from Scripture Jesus prayed that the Body of Christ be one like He is with His Father.

You’ll do fine!

God Bless you and your friend!
 
Mike_Brick said:
That gives you the perfect opportunity to ask your friend if he sincerely believes that, and if he does why does it appear to the spectators that the Holy Spirit guides different “believers” onto different paths, (all using the same source, the Bible “alone”), which has to led to +30,000 so called Christian denominations when before the reformation there was one Church. And we all know from Scripture Jesus prayed that the Body of Christ be one like He is with His Father.
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What I find so interesting and am not sure how to respond is: He believes that minor points of disagreement between two individuals under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is healthy. I asked him what about Christ wanting us to be one. He responded, “we are one body and the minor differences are the many parts of the one body.”

What are some truths we would disagree on that are major?

thanks!!
 
4life4nfp said:
What I find so interesting and am not sure how to respond is: He believes that minor points of disagreement between two individuals under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is healthy. I asked him what about Christ wanting us to be one. He responded, “we are one body and the minor differences are the many parts of the one body.”

What are some truths we would disagree on that are major?

thanks!!
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First off, I somewhat agree about the minor differences, and how that causes us to study, discuss and better understand our faith. As I said my wife is So. Baptist, and we wasted a whole lot of time arguing the question of whether Jesus had earthly brothers and sisters. After a long time we both realized that issue alone would not get anyone into or keep anyone out of heaven, so we should move on to more important disagreements.

Over the years a lot of folks, including me for a time, thought that Catholics and most protestants agree on the fundamentals of faith in Jesus Christ. But the older I get, and the more I study the more I am convinced there is a great deal of difference, especially between Catholics and “fundamentalist” non-catholics. Most of those great differences are the 5 “TULIPS” of Calvinism, (various non-Catholic fundamentalists adhere to some or all of them, but not all stand strongly on all of Calvin’s teaching).
  1. They believe in faith alone, (even though that term only appears in James and it says salvation is not by faith alone), we believe we must cooperate with God, have faith and as St. Paul said, work out our salvation in fear and trembling, (and I trust you correctly understand fear of God is the utmost respect, not fear that would cause one to run away from Him).
  2. They believe in the infallibility of the individual believer as he/she interprets Scripture, we don’t but rely on those who are best skilled in that, as found in the Church Christ established.
  3. They believe the Bible Alone is the only available deposit of the Revelation of God passed on to humans. We believe the total deposit included the Apostolic Traditions, which came orally from Jesus and were passed on to the Apostles, and then faithfuly to their successors, the Bishops, who passed it on to the Presbyters, (the priests). We believe those big “T” Traditions must not and do not conflict with Scripture, but compliment each other. They don’t believe we believe that.
  4. They believe the Church Christ established is “invisible”, and essentially leaderless, we believe it is clearly shown in Scripture to be “visible” and was founded by Jesus Himself on St. Peter and the Apostles to be universal, (worldwide), and survive until Jesus returns for us. We believe He intended there to be a hierachy, they don’t.
  5. Many of them believe Jesus commissioned the Apostles only to preach the Gospel, and gave them limited authority, but also believe that authority died when they did. Many of them believe the Apostles each started their own churches and left them independent, and those independent churches were on their own after the Apostolic Age.
  6. We believe that when Jesus established the Church, he promised as it says in Scripture to protect it to the end of time. He granted Peter primacy, (the keys to the Kingdom), and the rest of the Apostles significant authority as well, including “succession”, (Holy Orders, the laying on of hands). The successors of the Apostles are the Bishops, and the successors of Peter are the various Popes. Scripture clearly shows that when Judas died, the Apostles chose a successor, Mathias, they didn’t just leave the group, (which was representative of the 12 tribes of Israel), reduced to 11.
  7. They believe in “multiplying by dividing”, (don’t like what the preacher or someone else said or did, start your own church and hire a pastor you like better), and we believe the Church expands by spreading the Gospel through out the world, by building up the Body of Christ, not tearing it apart.
I could go on and on, but these are basic differences.

God Bless, keep the Faith!
 
4life4nfp said:
My next door neighbor is a fundamentalist Bible Christian who has a doctorate from a “Bible” school. He wants me to come over for a bible study just me and him. He knows I am Catholic.

We were talking about all of the denominations and what “truth” is and who has the authority and what to do when there is disagreement. He believes everything we need to know is in the Bible only. He explained to me that there are a set of core Christian beliefs that renders you a Christian or not. All the other stuff is minor. He explains that there are only a few different denominations that adhere to the core beliefs. He said all of our differences (at least with the Protestants) are the different parts of the body of Christ. for example, He said that Presbyterians see well but Baptist can walk.

Am I missing something? How do I begin to talk with him when we meet? (against Fr. Serpa’s advice, of course, as heard on Catholic Answers Live a week or so ago.)

Do we talk about Peter’s Primacy, the Sacraments, Matthew 16, the Eucharist?

Praying for advice and hoping the Spirit will speak through someone on this forum. THANKS, Brian (4life4NFP) papa2eight.
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I wouldnt go to his house for Bible Study if someone paid me to do it. He has already set the goundrules-Bible only based on his interpertation -and since he has a doctorate he will politely sneer if you dispute anything he says. The only thing he wants to do is take you away from your faith. After he does this you will be anohter “trophy” he brags to his friends about.
 
estesbob said:
I wouldnt go to his house for Bible Study if someone paid me to do it. He has already set the goundrules-Bible only based on his interpertation -and since he has a doctorate he will politely sneer if you dispute anything he says. The only thing he wants to do is take you away from your faith. After he does this you will be anohter “trophy” he brags to his friends about.
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While I agree with Bob, a bible study is not appropriate now, I don’t agree with his “fear” of being in the clutches of someone with a doctorate from a bible school. I know a guy, that demonstrates very un-christian behavior, who has a “doctorate” from a bible college, but it was an un-accredited bible college in a strip mall in Indiana. The degree was awarded for a six hour bible study! Don’t be intimidated by the initials after a man’s name, he may have bought them! This man I wrote of later went to a community college and got an associate of arts degree, after he “earned” his doctorate. That’s kind of backwards isn’t it!

Peace
 
4life4nfp said:
What I find so interesting and am not sure how to respond is: He believes that minor points of disagreement between two individuals under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is healthy. I asked him what about Christ wanting us to be one. He responded, “we are one body and the minor differences are the many parts of the one body.”
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This is true but beware the Trojan Horse.
 
4life4nfp said:
What I find so interesting and am not sure how to respond is: He believes that minor points of disagreement between two individuals under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is healthy. I asked him what about Christ wanting us to be one. He responded, “we are one body and the minor differences are the many parts of the one body.”

What are some truths we would disagree on that are major?

thanks!!
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Actually, Jesus prayed that we would be one *as he and the Father are one. *I can’t imagine Jesus and the Father disagreeing about anything, regardless of how minor.
 
dranzal said:
I’m in the camp that thinks we are to dialogue with our fellow Christians. Yes, your neighbor is looking to save/convert you. God bless him for it! The door-to-door JW’s and SDA’s are also looking to save us. Heaven only knows why we Catholics, so confident and sometimes even boastful amongst ourselves (that we have the fullness of truth and the authority of the Holy Spirit), do not share the same desire to “save” our neighbors. My daughter asks me often why Catholics don’t feel strongly enough about the faith to go door-to-door. “We want them to be Catholic too, don’t we?” she says.

Are we (those urging you to avoid religious discourse like the plague) forgetting that the Holy Spirit may be responsible for the interest your neighbor and his daughters have in you and yours?

There are so many places to start the discussion. But first, pray fervently that the Holy Spirit guides your words and opens his mind (and yours, for that matter).

Then, you can start by telling him you are troubled by the misinformation in the tracts. Do a little research to adequately answer the misinformation. Assure him that you have every confidence in the Catholic Church’s ability to stand up to scrutiny and that you only want to tackle one topic at a time. This is also good advice for people willing to allow JW’s and SDA’s into their homes as they often try diversionary tactics if one topic is not successful.

On the other hand, you can suggest to him exchanging books to read for a future discussion. He can give you 2-3 titles and you can give him 2-3 (Catholicism vs Fundamentalism, Scott Hahn, etc).

Right now, you aren’t looking to convert him. You are looking to open his mind to the possibility that some of what we teach is correct and that some of what he thinks he knows about Catholicism is completely erroneous. The Holy Spirit converts. We are His vehicles. What an awesome and humbling reality.

Your neighbor is also your brother and we are our brother’s keeper.
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I would advise against book swaps. That is NOT what Catholics want to do. Personally, I think the best way to handle this is through life examples. If we live as happy, faithful Catholics, and let those around us know that, then that is the best possible witness to Christ and the faith. Getting into an debate over interpretations of the Bible simply does not work in nearly all cases.
 
Many people here enjoy Dr. Scott Hahn. Well, he did not convert due to a deabte with Catholics, he converted because God called him and because his knowledge of Scripture pointed to the Catholic faith as being the only faith that aligned with the truth. He spent years bashing Catholics and drew thousands away from the faith, yet it was a Priest that touched him the most and that was the Holy Spirit working, not a debate on Bible interpretations.
 
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