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Isa_Almisry
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Pride goeth before destruction.
"Bible Christian" Who does this better fit: Protestants or Catholics?
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water
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doesn’t matter Catholic or protestant. Don’t be the one who knows the Bible only. Be the one who lives according to It.
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Isa_Almisry
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Really? Two or three areas, huh? You don’t seem sure of the numbers.
Care to cite them?
I’ll give you one II Peter 3:
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 1
Hhhhmmm. I seem to recall some hard saying no one could understand (John 6: 60)
7 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
OSAS, eh?
I see a reference to Paul, and his letters, but I don’t see a list. Is Hebrews one, for instance?
We do have references to, and quotations from the Scriptures from an early time: I Clement of Rome c.95 (ordained by St. Paul to succeed St. Peter), Ignatius of Antioch c. 105 (ordained by the Apostles as St. Peter’s successor there), St. Polycarp c. 105-130 (ordained by St. John the evangelist), St. Justin Martyr (from Palestine), first half of second century (wrote quite a bit), St. Iranaeus last half of second century (disciple of St. Polycarp)…ooops, I’m sorry. Sola scriptura, all these early witnesses (who knew the Apostles) and others don’t count. Sorry.
Btw where does the Scriptura say solo?
Acts 20:35 quotes the Gospel “it is more blessed to give than to receive.” But I can’t for the life of me find it in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. Can you?
The epistle of Jude, the Brother of God, though he says (verse 1) “a servant of Jesus Christ, but brother of James,” mentions a lot of stories I can’t find in my OT. Can you?
II Thessalonians 2:15 “stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”
I guess that would mean I Thessalonians, the first in chronology of the NT, but he doesn’t say so. Btw what’s up with the holding traditions which were taught. The Apostles didn’t teach any traditions (by word? orally?), did they?
Besides that I don’t know of any cross reference in the NT, nor any table of contents. Correct me please…
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Isa_Almisry
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you forgot a couple. Let me help:
Needs guidance to understand it-Acts 8:30-1
Hard to understand 2 Peter 3:16
Not a matter of private interpretation 2 Peter 2:20-1
Untaught and unstable people (hmmm) twist to their destruction 2 Peter 3:16
Quotes verses from the Gospel not in the Gospel Acts 20:35
Transmitted with Holy Tradition 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Commands we keep Holy Tradition 1 Corinthians 2:1
Shows the Church acting on Her own Authority without reference to Scripture Acts 6 (no reference to verse creating office of deacon).
Gives qualifications of bishops “a good work” 1 Timothy 3:1-7.
Shows bishops ordained with authority 1 Timothy 4:12-16
Shows Christ gave authority to Apostles to forgive sins John 20:23
Shows who rejects the Apostles rejects Christ Luke 10:16.
Shows someone filled with the Holy Spirit blesses Mary Luke 1:42Furnishes the Hail Mary: Luke 1:28, 42.
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Isa_Almisry
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Since it’s not in the Scriptura, no.
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Isa_Almisry
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Oh I forgot one:
Shows the devil is an excellent prooftexter from Scripture Matthew 4:1-11, Luke 4:1-13
Shows the demons believe James 2:19 (OSAS)
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Isa_Almisry
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First book of the NT written: I Thessalonians.
1:1 To the Church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I’ve been there. The Church is still there. So is her bishop.
So perhaps St. Paul wrote the epistle down so when he founded the Church there he could send it. What foresight!
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Isa_Almisry
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The first written Scripture is 1 Thessalonians c. 50-1.
Hmmmm. Matthew 16:18 Jesus talks about building a Church, but thats around two decade earlier.
Until St Paul got around to founding the Church (or actually, got around to Damascus), who you going to tell it to in Matthew 18:17
Acts 2:47 “And the Lord added to the Church daily those who were being saved.” But that can’t be. That would be before St. Paul, who wrote the first epistle converted. You can’t be added to something that doesn’t exist.
And on his first missionary journey St. Paul appointed elders (bishop-priests) in every church (Acts 14:23)…but he doesn’t get to Thessalonica to found the Church to send that first epistle/writing of the NT until Acts 17:1. Time warp.
The NT shows Christ writing only once and it hasn’t come down (Tradition says it was a list of sins) John 8:6. (btw the earliest MSS don’t have these verses, who told you they are Scripture
)But it shows Him building a Church that is still with us (see above and elsewhere).Sorry, Uzzah, you remind me of another person who makes comments that he backs scripturally. Matthew 4: 6, Luke 4:9-11.
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RevDrNorth
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But no one knows the Bible like a Southern Baptist. Most Southern Baptist grade school kids can run circles around your average liturgical Christian adult. The Baptist kid could quote more scripture and doctrine in context and knows the books of the bible in order.
If you told most Roman Catholic adults (or Anglicans) to look in
II Hezekiah verses 23:4…they would depsaretly search for it.
Rev North
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cazayoux
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The HS is no Prime Minister … He is God, Himself… and will be with the church that Christ founded until the end of time.
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cazayoux
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… and yet, understand so little.
memorizing scripture is of no importance without understanding scripture
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Isa_Almisry
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Your argument would be more persuasive if it wasn’t for the fact that 1 Timothy 5:18 was written BEFORE Luke 10:7.
And St. Peter doesn’t name said epistles of St. Paul. Who told you which ones were in and which ones were out?
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RevDrNorth
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and yet…with respect that is a consolation prize or excuse used by us liturgical types for the downright ignorance of the Word of God. We (Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox) need to get off of our collective butts and begin bible studies in parishes for adults (teach doctrine as well). Many…many…Roman Catholic adults (and Anglicans) are simply spiritually lazy. Go to church for an hour and go home (if they get there on time and stay for all of Mass). Most Baptists attend church at least once a week for an hour and a half and Bible Study (for all ages) on Sunday for another hour AND during the week more Men’s Bible Studies and so on (kids programs like AWANA).
Give them credit where credit is do.
Rev North
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Isa_Almisry
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On his way to Alexandria.Prove that the church from Timbuktu or Palookaville or wherever the 13.000 different Protestant churches started is the real church. Did you know Mark wrote his Gospel in ROME? Seriously Martin, you need to step away from the forum and regather your thoughts and plan of attack. Seriously dude.
By the way, Martin, your quote of St. Peter. Also written IN ROME.
Perhaps you haven’t heard of St. Paul’s epistle to the ROMANS.
Or Ephesians, Phillipians, Colossian, I and II Timothy, Titus and Philomon written from ROME.
I don’t recall the epistle to or from the tundra
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Isa_Almisry
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that’s funny, because St. Ignatius c. 105 refers to the Catholic Church in his epistle to the Smyrneans (8, the paragraph (7) mentions you Martin).About a century or two after ignatius!
That’s considerably earlier than 1517, no?
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Isa_Almisry
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oh, YOU’re that angel of light I’ve been warned about.I can’t I have to wait up for ya’ll
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PatienceAndLove
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Martin-
I can refer to an email that you send me, but that does not make that email scripture.
Peter, in this case, is referring to another teacher of the Way as an illustration and affirming that what Paul is teaching is true.
These two men knew one another (Council of Jerusalem), and would, of course, refer to one another in their teachings.
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Isa_Almisry
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Peter I know, and Paul I know, but who are YOU? Acts 19:15.
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PatienceAndLove
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I am reposting something I posted in another thread, cause it applies here as well!
2 Thess 11-16
11 That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity. 12 But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth: 13 Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. 15 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace,
16 Exhort your hearts, and confirm you in every good work and word.
2 Thess 3:6-7
6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us. 7 For yourselves know how you ought to imitate us: for we were not disorderly among you
And as I stated before:
Look at all of this in the context of a class-
One does not rely on just the text, on just the lecture, or just on the classroom discussions- those are single sources of information. Lord knows I would be lost in my History of Christianity class if I just read the text. I’d have failed the tests!
You need the text: The Bible
You need the lecture: Tradition
You need the discussion: Catechism
2 Thess 11-16
11 That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity. 12 But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth: 13 Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. 15 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace,
16 Exhort your hearts, and confirm you in every good work and word.
2 Thess 3:6-7
6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us. 7 For yourselves know how you ought to imitate us: for we were not disorderly among you
And as I stated before:
Look at all of this in the context of a class-
One does not rely on just the text, on just the lecture, or just on the classroom discussions- those are single sources of information. Lord knows I would be lost in my History of Christianity class if I just read the text. I’d have failed the tests!
You need the text: The Bible
You need the lecture: Tradition
You need the discussion: Catechism
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Isa_Almisry
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But you deny that the Lord had a Body, it’s just a metaphor.
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