"Bible Christian" Who does this better fit: Protestants or Catholics?

[ThereseMarie]

So far, you’re batting .000.

Amen

 

[Mannyfit75]

You shouldn’t. However, if you’re going to claim that they’re Biblical, you should show where it’s found in scripture.

They are Biblical. The fact that the Deutrocanonical Books has always been a part of the Christian Scripture for over 2,000 yrs. If you look the Protestants are the only Christian sect that have 7 missing books in their OT text. The two larger Christian community, Catholic and Orthodox has those books. The Orthodox has 47 NT and the Catholics have 46s. The 7 OT books were remove in the Bible in mid-late 1500s. In Luther’s own translation, he had them put in the appendix, and he also put the Epistles of James, as well as Revelation in there.

No, actually what I’m referring to is going through the scriptures, verse by verse and dismantling these Unbiblical beliefs.

Actually, you won’t be able to. These argument have been discuss here time and time again. Many of the objection you have can be refuted.

If you take a look at this website scripturecatholic.com/ and click on the left hand side link, there are Biblical bases for the Catholic belief.

I would say Catholics are more Biblical because Protestants have less books.

 

[bankerdavid]

Not all Catholic churches, I don’t think. I’ve never heard of it at any of the churches I’ve attended in all my 30-some years. Also, you hear the entire bible, but there is not much study of scripture (in my experiences, not trying to say everyone’s experiences are the same). I have never seen much bible study for children…especially little ones.

All Catholic Churches use the same liturgy, so, if you attend mass with an open mind, you hear and learn the whole bible. If something peaks your interest, you should go home and research it. You don’t need a class (although most parishes offer them).

Evangelicals, on the other hand, start VERY YOUNG! Even though we’re Catholic, I send my children to an evangelical program because there is no such thing at our church. They start at age 2. My children know scripture inside and out…more than I do! And it’s not just rote memorization, either. It’s real understanding. It’s beautiful.

I’d like your 2 year old’s take on Matthew 16 verse 18 please. (Wondering what Evangelicals are teaching him/her)

I would start something similar in the Catholic church, but I was told it was “too protestant” and wouldn’t be allowed.

Catechism starts at a very young age. It is tailored to the age of the children. They learn bible “stories”, about our Lady, and basics early on (before first communion!). They get deeper as they press on toward confirmation. I realize many are not properly catechised, but some of this is the responsibility of parents, just as success in schoolwork is the parent’s responsibility more than the teacher’s.

 

[boppaid]

All Catholic Churches use the same liturgy, so, if you attend mass with an open mind, you hear and learn the whole bible. If something peaks your interest, you should go home and research it. You don’t need a class (although most parishes offer them).

This kind of proves my point as to why protestants are better versed in the Bible. If Catholics want to learn it, after “hearing it” in Mass, they need to go home and study it. It is not simply taught.

I’d like your 2 year old’s take on Matthew 16 verse 18 please. (Wondering what Evangelicals are teaching him/her)

They haven’t taught my 2 year old (now 4 years old) that verse yet. For the younger ones, they focus mostly on God is love. Jesus came to save us. Jesus is God’s son. Jesus was sinless. The very basics.

Catechism starts at a very young age. It is tailored to the age of the children. They learn bible “stories”, about our Lady, and basics early on (before first communion!). They get deeper as they press on toward confirmation. I realize many are not properly catechised, but some of this is the responsibility of parents, just as success in schoolwork is the parent’s responsibility more than the teacher’s.

I agree w/ your description of catechism. I, personally, taught grades 1, 5 & 6 CCD a long long time ago. (I’m aging myself! ) I wish CCD would focus more on Scripture, though. Not just bible stories, but actual scripture. Actual verses. I also wish it started much earlier than age 7. I also wish they would do something similar to the Baptist’s Awana program, which is like a scouts for Jesus. They earn badges for various things.

 

[brosam]

They are Biblical.

Then why can’t you show me where in the Bible they’re found?

Actually, you won’t be able to.

Why not? I’ve done it many times before. What makes you think I can’t do it now?

I would say Catholics are more Biblical because Protestants have less books.

But what difference does it make how many books you have when you won’t do what they say?

 

[brosam]

Purgatory. 2nd Macabees (which was removed because it was at odds with Protestant belief!)

Not only is 2nd Macabees not a part of the Bible, the very idea of Purgatory denies the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement.

The sinlessness of Mary. Where does it say in the Bible that she was sinful?

Mt 19:17
Ro 3:12

Ex ecclesia nulla salas. Does not say what you think it says.

Really? It doesn’t say “Outside the Roman Catholic church there is no salvation”?

Indulgences. Again, how does this go against the bible?

First of all, it assumes that Purgatory exists, which is Unbiblical.

 

[brosam]

Gosh, for a Bible teacher, your understanding of the Bible seems rather limited.

So you say, but need I remind you that you’re the one who can’t show where your own beliefs are found in the Bible?

If you pray to the Holy Spirit for wisdom, and sincerely mean it, you too can discover the truths in the Holy Catholic Church.

Thank you, but first of all, the Holy Spirit isn’t going to tell me something that contradicts God’s word and, second, even if I did pray for the Holy Spirit to show me, I would still have to check what the spirit told me by the objective standard of scripture to see that it is, indeed, the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Then why can’t you show me where in the Bible they’re found?

Why not? I’ve done it many times before. What makes you think I can’t do it now?

But what difference does it make how many books you have when you won’t do what they say?

It is apparent you didn’t bother to look at the Scripture reference I provided in Scripture Catholic. Feel free to email the John Salza on his website:

The difference is the Early Christians used 47 OT and 27 NT books. Even at the time of Jesus they use 47 OT books.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Not only is 2nd Macabees not a part of the Bible, the very idea of Purgatory denies the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement.

Mt 19:17
Ro 3:12

Says who? Purgatory doesn’t deny the sufficiency of Christ atonement. Those who go to Purgatory are already saved, they are paying their debts from the lesser sins they committed.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Really? It doesn’t say “Outside the Roman Catholic church there is no salvation”?

The Catechism further explains this in detail:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

First of all, it assumes that Purgatory exists, which is Unbiblical.

Tell me then explain what this third place is in Philippians 2:10

"Therefore, God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him a name which is above every other name, that at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of the God the Father.

Under the earth isn’t hell, my friend. In hell, souls of the damn and demons are cut off from God.

 

[ThereseMarie]

So you say, but need I remind you that you’re the one who can’t show where your own beliefs are found in the Bible?

I can, (probably everyone on this site can) but why should I when YOU are the one who obviously hasn’t searched or researched Sacred Scripture. If you did, you wouldn’t be using these tired old Protest-ant arguments.

Thank you, but first of all, the Holy Spirit isn’t going to tell me something that contradicts God’s word and, second, even if I did pray for the Holy Spirit to show me, I would still have to check what the spirit told me by the objective standard of scripture to see that it is, indeed, the Holy Spirit.

*THAT is the craziest thing I have ever read. Let me see if I got this right: You would have to verify what God the Holy Spirit is telling you against YOUR personal interpretation of Scripture??? Show me where it says in the Bible that we are supposed to do this. I know you can’t because this is made up doctrine. *

*Here is the problem: You start with what YOU want to believe, your brand of ‘cafeteria Christianity.’ Then, you go to your truncated version of the Bible to prove yourself right. *

Peace,

 

[brosam]

I can, (probably everyone on this site can) but why should I when YOU are the one who obviously hasn’t searched or researched Sacred Scripture. If you did, you wouldn’t be using these tired old Protest-ant arguments.

Actually, I’ve been studying the scriptures for about twenty years and preaching and teaching them for twelve.

THAT is the craziest thing I have ever read.

I’m sorry you feel God’s word is so crazy.

Let me see if I got this right: You would have to verify what God the Holy Spirit is telling you against YOUR personal interpretation of Scripture?

How else am I supposed to know that it’s the Holy Spirit?

Show me where it says in the Bible that we are supposed to do this. I know you can’t because this is made up doctrine.

1 John 4:1-3.

Here is the problem: You start with what YOU want to believe, your brand of ‘cafeteria Christianity.’ Then, you go to your truncated version of the Bible to prove yourself right.

Actually, it’s quite the opposite. When I first became a Christian, I was a part of the Word of Faith movement and the last thing I ever thought I’d be was a fundamentalist preacher. However, it was because I studied the scriptures and realized that I was wrong and the scriptures were right, that I am where I am today.

If what you’re saying is true, then I’d still be in the WoF movement, prooftexting my way through the scriptures in order to defend WoF.

 

[ThereseMarie]

I’m sorry you feel God’s word is so crazy.

Sorry, I think you misread. I think your word is crazy.

1 John 4:1-3.

Sorry, I guess I missed where it says that we need to check everything the Holy Spirit tells us against our personal interpretation of Scripture. This is your own made up, decidedly un-Biblical doctrine. Admit it.

You may want to look at 2 Peter 3: 15-16 (if your Bible has it)

 

[brosam]

Sorry, I think you misread. I think your word is crazy.

It wan’t my word. All I did was tell you what the Bible says.

Sorry, I guess I missed where it says that we need to check everything the Holy Spirit tells us against our personal interpretation of Scripture.

You’re right. It doesn’t say that. It says that we’re test everything we hear in light of the objective standard of God’s word in order to determine that it is actually the Holy Spirit.

You may want to look at 2 Peter 3: 15-16

Rather than the childish accusations, why don’t you take the time to show me from the scriptures why you believe I’m wrong?

 

[ThereseMarie]

You’re right. It doesn’t say that. It says that we’re test everything we hear in light of the objective standard of God’s word in order to determine that it is actually the Holy Spirit.

Again, I missed where it says to test against 'the standard of God’s word". It simply doesn’t say this at all. Please stop making up this stuff up!!!

Rather than the childish accusations, why don’t you take the time to show me from the scriptures why you believe I’m wrong?

OK. I will write tomorrow if I can. Good night, and God bless you.

 

[Sixtus]

You’re right. It doesn’t say that. It says that we’re test everything we hear in light of the objective standard of God’s word in order to determine that it is actually the Holy Spirit.

Again, I missed where it says to test against 'the standard of God’s word". It simply doesn’t say this at all. Please stop making up this stuff up!!!

Rather than the childish accusations, why don’t you take the time to show me from the scriptures why you believe I’m wrong?

OK. I will write tomorrow if I can. Good night, and God bless you.

Well who gave the world the Bible?

The Bible is the teachings of the Church founded by Christ.

The Bible supports the teachings of the Church not the other way around.

It is not all of the teachings since many teachings were already in every day use long before the Bible was canonised.

Some teachings of the Lord were not written down by His Apostles and their Diciples since St John tells us that ‘Not every word that Christ spoke was written down or recorded in any detail’ Jn21:25

Bible Christians are ‘any Christian who believes in the Sacred Scriptures and the Church whose Scriptures they are’

Why do some refuse to believe what the Church of Christ says but paradoxically believe every word she has written?

 

[ThereseMarie]

Rather than the childish accusations, why don’t you take the time to show me from the scriptures why you believe I’m wrong? Brosam

First off, I disagree with anyone who says that they go by the word of the Scripture, and then proceed to make up Scripture verses to prove themselves correct. This is what you did last night with the verses from St John’s letter. You want to hold Catholic doctrine to some precise Scriptural litmus test that you yourself can’t pass without MAKING STUFF UP!!!

For example: Where does it say In Holy Scripture that by faith ALONE we are saved? I know it says that our faith saves us, but where does it say the one little word ALONE??? It doesn’t. Martin Luther and the rest of the Sola Fide crowd made this up. I hate that. The twisting of the Word of God to prove any MADE UP doctrine infuriates me!!! Look up what Jesus says in Mt 7:21-23. or what St Paul says in 1 Cor 13:2-3 or 1 Cor 10:12 or 1 Cor 4:4-5 or 2 Cor 5:10 or Phil 2:12 and on and on and on. We are admonished by Jesus and St Paul to do good. We can’t make it on faith alone. Even satan has faith! Is he saved by his faith in The Christ??? (James 2:14-26) According to the Faith Alone crowd, he must be. He believes in Jesus.

I have a lot more Biblical verses to share with you, (even though you were name calling last night, not me (e.g.“childish”)). You would actually have to stick to the Bible and not MAKE UP verses to have a real dialogue, though…

:bible1:

 

[Grateful4mercy]

It wasn’t the Lord, it was the Angel of Light.

Let me get this right before I turn you in to the moderators. You have just told this nice christian person that satan has lead her to the Catholic Faith, right? I just want to be sure I am understanding your statement. If I am wrong, please explain yourself.

BTW, I’m glad your only a ‘de facto’ assistant preacher. I would hate to think that holy scripture could escape from the mouth of such a hateful person into the ears of innocents.

What possessed you to come to these boards anyway? I’m putting my money on the possibility that you stumbled upon the RCC in your study of scripture and you are here to prove your findings wrong so that you can sleep at night. :twocents:

I just want you to know I’ll be praying for your conversion to Catholicism…and there is nothing you can do about it.

God Bless

 

[brosam]

Let me get this right before I turn you in to the moderators. You have just told this nice christian person that satan has lead her to the Catholic Faith, right? I just want to be sure I am understanding your statement. If I am wrong, please explain yourself.

In all fairness, you’re right. That was a mean thing to say and I shouldn’t have said it. I was reacting in anger from the vicious way that the Roman Catholics have gone after me, personally, here. That doesn’t excuse it, though. I’ve already contacted the moderators and asked them to edit the post for me.

Don’t you think it’s just a little hypocritical of Roman Catholics to say that we’re not Christians, but we can’t suggest that Roman Catholics aren’t Christians?

BTW, I’m glad your only a ‘de facto’ assistant preacher. I would hate to think that holy scripture could escape from the mouth of such a hateful person into the ears of innocents.

Actually, I teach three classes and preach about three times a month, not including being asked by other churches to preach.

If you’d like to email my pastor and let him know about your concerns, let me know. I’ll be happy to PM you with his email address.

What possessed you to come to these boards anyway?

Honestly? I got onto their mailing list and they wouldn’t stop sending me spam emails asking for money. I even called them on the phone and they wouldn’t take me off. So, I decided that the best revenge would be to come here and defend sound doctrine.

I’m putting my money on the possibility that you stumbled upon the RCC in your study of scripture and you are here to prove your findings wrong so that you can sleep at night.

I sleep just fine and the only thing I’ve “found” about Roman Catholicism is that most of it’s teachings can’t be supported from scripture.

I just want you to know I’ll be praying for your conversion to Catholicism…and there is nothing you can do about it.

Why would you pray for me to convert to Roman Catholicism? I thought we were already Christians.

 

[brosam]

Says who? Purgatory doesn’t deny the sufficiency of Christ atonement. Those who go to Purgatory are already saved, they are paying their debts from the lesser sins they committed.

I see. So then, when the Bible says that Jesus’ blood cleanses from all sins, it doesn’t mean the lesser ones?

 

[Grateful4mercy]

In all fairness, you’re right. That was a mean thing to say and I shouldn’t have said it. I was reacting in anger from the vicious way that the Roman Catholics have gone after me, personally, here. That doesn’t excuse it, though. I’ll try to find that post and edit it.

A quick prayer to the HS usually helps me tone down the rhetoric…usually

Don’t you think it’s just a little hypocritical of Roman Catholics to say that we’re not Christians, but we can’t suggest that Roman Catholics aren’t Christians?

So far you are the only person on these forums saying that. Are you trying to tell us something about yourself? BTW, by attacking His church you are putting yourself outside of His will, does that make you Christian?

Actually, I teach three classes and preach about three times a month, not including being asked by other churches to preach.

If you’d like to email my pastor and let him know about your concerns, let me know. I’ll be happy to PM you with his email address.

That depends, are you teaching bigotry and hatred like you are putting forth here? I might actually like to discuss your non-Christ like behavior with him.

Honestly? I got onto their mailing list and they wouldn’t stop sending me spam emails asking for money. I even called them on the phone and they wouldn’t take me off. So, I decided that the best revenge would be to come here and defend sound doctrine.

sounds like somebody you have attacked for being Catholic might have gotten you back. It’s sort of funny if you ask me.

I sleep just fine and the only thing I’ve “found” about Roman Catholicism is that most of it’s teachings can’t be supported from scripture.

Why would everything we teach need to be supported by scripture? Why would that make us ‘bad’ in your eyes? Do you attack Lutherans or Episcopalians as harshly as you attack Catholics, or are we alone in bearing the brunt of your hatred?

Here’s a thought. marinate on it for a while…Isn’t saying that the Bible alone can save you the same as saying that your driver’s education book can make you a Formula 1 driver? Yes, all that is in the Bible is good, but not everything that is good is in the Bible. And since God is, by His very nature, both Goodness itself and everywhere [ie. outside of the Bible] isn’t it possible that there are good and Holy things NOT in the Bible?

Why would you pray for me to convert to Roman Catholicism? I thought we were already Christians.

Because I love you, and I want only the very best for you. And the place that God has set for you at his table is sitting empty. Please come home and take your rightful place!

And, as I said above, only YOU are claiming not to be christian. But if you put yourself in the position of persecutor [think St Paul] then you are, by your own actions, separating yourself from God.

In other words…only YOU can make the claim of being christian or not. We can’t, and won’t, make that claim for you. So tell me, dear pastor…are you a Christian?