"Bible Christians": question on truth

[Reformed_Rob]

But For Grace,

Another text that is used quite often, but not as often as others in defending “Sola Scriptura” is Isaiah 8:20:

To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." (NAS)

My RSV reads slightly different:

To the teaching and to the testimony! Surely for this word which they speak there is no dawn. (RSV)

The text is usually set forth as totally relevant to the Scripture vs. Tradition topic. You decide… perhaps relevant is Isaiah 8:16:

Bind up the testimony, seal the teaching among my disciples

I believe that text, Is. 8:20, is a good short synopsis of Sola Scriptura, when it’s understood as meaning “To the Bible and to the Scripture!” I’m not meaning to say that the Bible and Scripture are 2 different things, no, I’m just trying to match Is. 8:20’s “To the x and to the y” as close as possible in a S.S. way.

Either way, Catholic or Protestant, that’s a pretty good battle cry, isn’t it!!??

 

[Reformed_Rob]

so… written up to that point?.. written in the OT?.. nothing after this verse is acceptable because we would have to “go beyond” ???
and… what about Scripture telling us that there are many things “not written down”??

Yes MrS, that’s partly why I said that text is “difficult.”

Also, it appears, from I Corinthians 5:9 that St. Paul actually wrote a letter to the Corinthians, previous to “I Corinthians.” Hmmm…, and Colossians 4:16:

And when this letter has been read among you, have it read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and see that you read also the letter from Laodicea.

All these letters!!! You may ask, “wouldn’t they be as authoratative as Paul’s other letters that are included in the Canon?” And that’s a good question.

I suppose, if they, or faithful copies, were to be found, they would obviously be distinguished from Scripture, but they would none-the-less give good extra-Biblical insight into his teachings and other things, like the “other things” he would give directions about in I Cor. 11:34.

Ok, g’day to you!!

 

[But_for_Grace]

Reformed Bob - Let’s look at the passage in a fuller content

Isa 8:13 Sanctify the Lord of hosts himself: and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
Isa 8:14 And he shall be a sanctification to you. But for a stone of stumbling, and for a rock of offence to the two houses of Israel, for a snare and a ruin to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isa 8:15 And very many of them shall stumble and fall, and shall be broken in pieces, and shall be snared, and taken.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Isa 8:17 And I will wait for the Lord, who hath hid his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
Isa 8:18 Behold I and my children, whom the Lord hath given me for a sign, and for a wonder in Israel from the Lord of hosts, who dwelleth in mount Sion.
Isa 8:19 And when they shall say to you: Seek of pythons, and of diviners, who mutter in their enchantments: should not the people seek of their God, for the living of the dead?
Isa 8:20 To the law rather, and to the testimony. And if they speak not according to this word, they shall not have the morning light.
Isa 8:21 And they shall pass by it, they shall fall, and be hungry: and when they shall be hungry, they will be angry, and curse their king, and their God, and look upwards.
Isa 8:22 And they shall look to the earth, and behold trouble and darkness, weakness and distress, and a mist following them, and they cannot fly away from their distress. (DRB)

Now note in verse 16 the two words which you have previously noted, testimony and law, and let’s look closer at them.

Testimony
te‛ûdâh
teh-oo-daw’
From H5749; attestation, that is, a precept, usage: - testimony.

from

‛ûd
ood
A primitive root; to duplicate or repeat; by implication to protest, testify (as by reiteration); intensively to encompass, restore (as a sort of reduplication): - admonish, charge, earnestly, lift up, protest, call (take) to record, relieve, rob, solemnly, stand upright, testify, give warning, (bear, call to, give, take to) witness.

hence for testify the implication is spoken language, this does not necessatate any book of scripture, but rather seems to imply something outside of scripture that bears witness to the Law.

Law
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw’, to-raw’
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

from

yârâh yârâ’
yaw-raw’, yaw-raw’
A primitive root; properly to flow as water (that is, to rain); transitively to lay or throw (especially an arrow, that is, to shoot); figuratively to point out (as if by aiming the finger), to teach: - (+) archer, cast, direct, inform, instruct, lay, shew, shoot, teach (-er, -ing), through.

this holds the same conclusion, the diffrence is that testimony is infromal while law is formal, and the bible cannot be both formal and informal at the same time. Further the testimony and law are sealed among the disciples.

sealed
châtham
khaw-tham’
A primitive root; to close up; especially to seal: - make an end, mark, seal (up), stop.

…among the…

disciples
limmûd limmûd
lim-mood’, lim-mood’
From H3925; instructed: - accustomed, disciple, learned, taught, used.

from

lâmad
law-mad’
A primitive root; properly to goad, that is, (by implication) to teach (the rod being an Oriental incentive): - [un-] accustomed, X diligently, expert, instruct, learn, skilful, teach (-er, -ing).

the testimony and law properly belong to the disciples, that is to those whom God has taught.

as to verse 20 it is a warning to those mentioned in the preceeding verses. The prophet and his disciples are to be “signs” (v18)…

signs
'ôth
oth
Probably from H225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal (literally or figuratively), as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: - mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token.

from

'ûth
ooth
A primitive root; properly to come, that is, (impliedly) to assent: - consent.

…they are to be a beacon of light in the world of darkness, a city set upon a hill, and what may we ask is the purpose of this sign but to perserve the testimony and law, tradition and scripture, so that the measure of the truth might be known. Why is this necessary? The Prophet also tells us that…

Isa 8:15 And very many of them shall stumble and fall, and shall be broken in pieces, and shall be snared, and taken. (DRB)

So, my friend, rather than seeing a support for SS here I see a strong argument in favor of the Catholic view of scripture, a warning against dividing the body of Christ, and a prophesy of the protestant refermation.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

But for Grace:

Reformed Bob -

So, my friend, rather than seeing a support for SS here I see a strong argument in favor of the Catholic view of scripture, a warning against dividing the body of Christ, and a prophesy of the protestant refermation.

Yup!!

That’s a good little word study you did there, I was wondering last night what such a study would reveal for those words. People are quick to get on the “Testimony” = “Bible” train and not check their tickets to make sure that’s the correct train, so to speak.

That was one of the key verses in a letter a Reformed friend wrote me some months back, out of concern. His application has bothered me less and less as time went on.

Good work, thanks!

 

[bekalc]

I’m a former seminary student, whose converting. Do you guys want to know what happened to me. I was in systematics and they go over every aspect of Christianity. I knew for a long time that there would be different proof texts etc and it was all up to interpertation. But it didn’t really hit me on how ridiculous the whole thing was until we got to the subject of communion.

I was sitting there and the Professor said the Bible isn’t clear how we should be interperting it literally or figuratively all five different views choose for themselves. I don’t really know why I got upset about the subject because I heard this the whole time. But I think it was because communion as the professor said it was o tangible and led to the unity of Christians. I knew this was the subject that divided Luther and Zwingili. I knew from my talks with God that He did not want a house divided, long before.

All I found myself thinking was no it can’t be that way. Jesus words would have been quite clear to the apostles, they would have made it to the early church. Go to the early church writers see what they have to say, but don’t just decide to make communion whatever you want it to mean. It’s about what Jesus wants it to mean. Then, I freaked thinking to myself That’s the Catholic Church’s view point. Oh my gosh, the Catholics were right its Scripture and Tradition.

Can I say verses that I think fit. A big one is Galations which talks about how if anyone comes to you with a gospel other than the one you received… Scripture suggests quite strongly the first opinion holds priority, and it repeadly tells people to hold on to what they received.

 

[BOBKAT]

bekalc:

I’m a former seminary student, whose converting. Do you guys want to know what happened to me. I was in systematics and they go over every aspect of Christianity. I knew for a long time that there would be different proof texts etc and it was all up to interpertation. But it didn’t really hit me on how ridiculous the whole thing was until we got to the subject of communion.

That’s amazing!!! I have family members who left the faith for the OSAS SS faiths and I tell them if you really want to learn the truth than you will and it will lead you to the place you left. Open your hearts and listen invite the Holy Spirit in and you will find your way. Your story gives me hope.

God Bless
Kathleen

 

[MrS]

bekalc:

Can I say verses that I think fit. A big one is Galations which talks about how if anyone comes to you with a gospel other than the one you received… Scripture suggests quite strongly the first opinion holds priority, and it repeadly tells people to hold on to what they received.

I hope readers will pause and think about this sentence, it is often used against Catholics and this would be a sensible and appropriate response to those silly “attacks”

Good post

 

[bekalc]

I know I was back as Protestant attending a church and the pastor started yelling about Catholics. He quoted that verse in Galations, and I remember thinking to myself. Wait a second pastor, that condemns the Protestants.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

bekalc:

I know I was back as Protestant attending a church and the pastor started yelling about Catholics. He quoted that verse in Galations, and I remember thinking to myself. Wait a second pastor, that condemns the Protestants.

Yeah, it’s easy enough for any pastor or denomination to simply assume that they preach the same Gospel that the Apostle Paul delivered to the Galatians. After all, they can quote a few Bible verses in Galatians and Romans, and say “that’s what we teach,” but there’s a little more to it than that.

All the Protestants that use that Galatians 1:6-9 just believe that the Catholic Church “preaches another Gospel.” Of course they have their reasons for believing that. That’s one reason this Forum exists!!!