Bible Discussion with Family baptized but no longer practicing Catholics

  • Thread starter Thread starter kevin3705
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
K

kevin3705

Guest
Please read the below string. I am in need of rebuttal assistance to family members. At the root of my family was a very strong Catholic patriarch (grandfather) and matriarch (grandmother) from South Louisiana. As aunts and uncles 13 children total including my father began to marry, a shift, away from the Catholic church began and this discussion is with my 1st cousins, the children of those aunts and uncles – some of whom are baptized Catholics, were educated 12 years in Catholic schools, as was I (yeah, Sisters of St. Joseph of Carondelet!!) but are now followers and contributors to the “Joel Osteen Retirement Fund” (Lakewood Church Houston, TX) or Sola Scriptura believers, agnostics, muslims and the like. At 43, I feel the need as the oldest grandchild and an active member of my Catholic Community who is consistently seeking growth and enrichment of faith to discuss with civility my Catholic Faith and encourage those both within my family and friends to *come home *to the Catholic Church.

Before closing, I must state that my father is the oldest child of the 13, he and my mom have been happily married for 44 years and are very active Catholic church members. The brother immediately following him, the same, long happy marriage, practicing Catholic and concluding Diaconate studies in Central Louisiana. Following these two fine examples the family is rot with religious descension and of the remaining 11 children, 7 have divorced, with 4 of the 7 leaving the Catholic Church.

Below is the discussion I need assistance with​

Comment by C. N. Harrison 1 day ago
The Bible says that if we live by the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Therefore if we live by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit will lead us and guide into all truth.
There’s too much flesh in the church and not enough Truth.

Comment by MP on August 29, 2008
But if we seek to allow the bile to speek for God and not interject our man made interpretations. 2Peter 1: 20-21 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scriputre is of any private interpertation, 21 For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy spirit.

Comment by Kevin Pichon on August 29, 2008
Q: If God is unified, then why are there so many variations of Christianity?
A: Because man, since the Fall, is not.

Comment by MP on August 29, 2008
If God is unified, then why are there so many variations of Christianity?
 
Joel Osteen is not historic Protestant biblical Christianity. I find Osteen to be teaching a form of Christian- humanism. Not all non-Catholic Christian churches are the same. Some are apostate and have become synagogues of Satan.
 
Reformed said:
Joel Osteen is not historic Protestant biblical Christianity. I find Osteen to be teaching a form of Christian- humanism. Not all non-Catholic Christian churches are the same. Some are apostate and have become synagogues of Satan.
Click to expand...
Joel Osteen is also prone to teach the prosperity gospel.
 
estesbob said:
Joel Osteen is also prone to teach the prosperity gospel.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing that information. I just want to let Kevin know that if his extended family is diversed in beliefs, not all non-Catholic Faiths are the same. Kevin, do you want to share which churches your family attend as sola scripturist?
 
OK, not too concerned about Joel & Victoria. The below comments are need rebuttal assistance with.

Comment by C. N. Harrison 1 day ago
The Bible says that if we live by the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Therefore if we live by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit will lead us and guide into all truth.
There’s too much flesh in the church and not enough Truth.

Comment by MP on August 29, 2008
But if we seek to allow the bile to speek for God and not interject our man made interpretations. 2Peter 1: 20-21 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scriputre is of any private interpertation, 21 For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy spirit.
 
kevin3705 said:
Comment by C. N. Harrison 1 day ago
The Bible says that if we live by the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Therefore if we live by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit will lead us and guide into all truth.
There’s too much flesh in the church and not enough Truth.
Click to expand...
I don’t know what there is to rebutt.

I’d say, Amen! There are far too many people (clergy and non-clergy alike) claiming to be Christian, but continue to practice sins of the flesh. St. Paul wrote of this problem regarding 1st century Christianity:

To be clear, St. Paul is writing to TRUE Christians within the Church of Galatia…

Gal 3:26-28:
“For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. … you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

These are SAVED CHRISTIANS, who are TRULY REGENERATED in Christ!!! Yet, Paul speaks disappointingly to the churches of Galatia, those he described as being “baptized in Christ” and as being “sons of God because of their faith in Christ.”

Paul describes these Christians as those to whom God has provided the Spirit, working miracles among them. (Gal 3:5). Paul clearly tells us that these are saved Christians who he is writing to: “Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’” (Gal 4:6). Consequently, the same Spirit sent into Paul’s heart was sent into the hearts of the assembly of Christians of Galatia to which Paul is writing to. It follows that, if these Christians were never “saved,” then neither was Paul.

So, they really were “baptized in Christ” which means they not only had the teachings of Christ but the REAL GRACE of Christ. Yet, what does Paul say about them?

**Gal 4:9, 11: "…how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? … I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain." **

Paul is not only warning these “sons of God” of the consequences of returning to “worthless” things, but also of the consequences of returning to the “desires of the flesh.” Paul warns these saved Christians, these “sons of God” from Galatia that if they practice such things, ***they will not inherit the kingdom of God. ***

*Gal 5:19-21 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident … which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

***Consequently, the same Church today warns those calling themselves Christian, who likewise practice the “deeds of the flesh.” The message of St. Paul remains the warning today, that those who practice such things “***will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

***Yet, because some practice such things, I should not conclude that the Church of Galatia which Paul addressed is not indeed among the authentic churches of Christ present throughout the world. Paul was himself a cergyman in the Church of Christ. While there were no doubt some members of the Church of Galatia guilty of the sins of the flesh, this did not mean that Paul approved of such things. In fact, my priest, my bishop, and my pope all join with St. Paul in condemning the “sins of the flesh.” They preach instead that “they should repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of their repentance.” (Acts 26:20).
 
kevin3705 said:
OK, not too concerned about Joel & Victoria. The below comments are need rebuttal assistance with.

Comment by C. N. Harrison 1 day ago
The Bible says that if we live by the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Therefore if we live by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit will lead us and guide into all truth.
There’s too much flesh in the church and not enough Truth.

Comment by MP on August 29, 2008
But if we seek to allow the bile to speek for God and not interject our man made interpretations. 2Peter 1: 20-21 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scriputre is of any private interpertation, 21 For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy spirit.
Click to expand...
I would love to help you. I’m catholic, but not Roman Catholic. Do you still want my assistance? 🙂
 
Kevin, do you want to share which churches your family attend as sola scripturist?

To: Reformed

I would share that information if I knew. I can obviously find out and get back, however, I consider most of their views since they are no longer practicing Catholics as simply anti-Catholic. My personal view is once a Catholic, always a Catholic – they just need the education (or map) to come home.
 
kevin3705 said:
Comment by MP on August 29, 2008
But if we seek to allow the bile to speek for God and not interject our man made interpretations. 2Peter 1: 20-21 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scriputre is of any private interpertation, 21 For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy spirit.
Click to expand...
Amen! The Catholic Church teaches:
“…like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture. For in the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven meets His children with great love and speaks with them; and the force and power in the word of God is so great that it stands as the support and energy of the Church, the strength of faith for her sons, the food of the soul, the pure and everlasting source of spiritual life. Consequently these words are perfectly applicable to Sacred Scripture: “For the word of God is living and active” (Heb. 4:12) and “it has power to build you up and give you your heritage among all those who are sanctified” (Acts 20:32; see 1 Thess. 2:13).” (Dei Verbum, 21)
Click to expand...
This is why I cannot hold to the Protestant doctrines of “Sola Scriptura” or “Sola Fide,” as these are “man-made” traditions which are contrary to the teachings of Holy Scripture.
 
kevin3705 said:
Kevin, do you want to share which churches your family attend as sola scripturist?

To: Reformed

I would share that information if I knew. I can obviously find out and get back, however, I consider most of their views since they are no longer practicing Catholics as simply anti-Catholic. My personal view is once a Catholic, always a Catholic – they just need the education (or map) to come home.
Click to expand...
Sure, if you want my insight. I guess I was never really Roman Catholic. I was actually baptized as an infant in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in a Protestant Church. Does that make me united to the Roman Catholic Church in a sense?
 
kevin3705 said:
Comment by Kevin Pichon on August 29, 2008
Q: If God is unified, then why are there so many variations of Christianity?
A: Because man, since the Fall, is not.
Click to expand...
Amen! There is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. It is indeed undivided, as the Body of Christ is also undivided.

“All who believed were together and had all things in common” (Acts 2:44).

“…be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose. For it has been reported to me…that there are quarrels among you, my brothers and sisters…Has Christ been divided?” (1 Cor 1:10-12)

Thus, the true Church of Christ, His Body, can never be divided.

Yet, many today who claim to be Christian, I’m sorry to say, are not in full communion with the Church of Christ, and as such, are not undivided.
Comment by MP on August 29, 2008
If God is unified, then why are there so many variations of Christianity?
Click to expand...
I’d say that this has much to do with sin of heresy and schism, sins which are incompatible with being in full communion with the Church of Christ. The Bible warns against this and indeed affirms this sin was present even during apostolic times. For instance, Matt 18:17ff tells us how Christians should handle sins against brethren. Make no mistake, heresy and schism are indeed sins against brethren.

Matt 18:17 states, “If he refuses to listen to them [two or three witnesses], tell it to the church*; and if he refuses to listen even to the church*, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”

This passage testifies to the possibility of “separated brethren,” doesn’t it?

St. Paul tells us likewise, “A man that is a heretic, (Gk hairetikos***) after the first and second admonition, avoid***” (Titus 3:10).

So, even in Paul’s day, there were heretics, that is, those claiming to be disciples of Christ, yet teach contrary to the authentic teachings of Christ.

The very teachings of Sacred Scripture demand that we give fraternal correction to those who teach contrary to Christian doctrine, and if they refuse to “listen to the Church” then we are to treat them as separated brethren. This is why–after over 2000 years–we have so many separated brethren today, they refuse to "listen to the Church", which according to St. Paul as described Sacred Scripture, the Church is indeed the “pillar and foundation of truth.” (1 Tim 3:15)
 
🙂
itsjustdave1988 said:
Amen! There is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. It is indeed undivided, as the Body of Christ is also undivided.

“All who believed were together and had all things in common” (Acts 2:44).]
Click to expand...
I think Catholics tend to foget that even the magestrium will say that no all who are members of the Roman Catholic Church will be in Heaven. My biggest issue with this exclusive claim of being the One True Church is that it seems to make the Roman Catholic Church the savior, replacing the Jesus Christ revealed in the Scriptures as being the savior. The Roman Catholic Church wants its cake and eat it too. There is so much division in the Roman Catholic Church too. All you need to do to verify this statement is to read the postings on this Catholic site and the other Catholic site. The schism that it points to at non-catholic churches is the same schism found inside the walls of Rome. I believe God has a remnant chosen by grace in every generation. That remnant is not contained inside the walls of Rome, nor does Rome define the remnant.

The Roman Catholic institution needs to look in the mirror…

catholicforum.com/forums/index.php

forums.catholic-questions.org/index.php?

For baptism indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your baptism becomes unbaptism. So, if a man who is unbaptized keeps the precepts of the law, will not his unbaptism be regarded as baptism Then he who is physically baptized but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and baptism but break the law. For no one is a catholic who is merely one outwardly, nor is baptism outward and physical. But a catholic is one inwardly, and baptism is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - Rom 2 edited by me. 🙂

The participation of water baptism does not necesarily mean that you have been born from above. It is impossible to please God for those who are still in the flesh, nor can you enter the kingdom of god without being born from above.
 
Reformed said:
🙂

I think Catholics tend to foget that even the magestrium will say that no all who are members of the Roman Catholic Church will be in Heaven. My biggest issue with this exclusive claim of being the One True Church is that it seems to make the Roman Catholic Church the savior, replacing the Jesus Christ revealed in the Scriptures as being the savior. The Roman Catholic Church wants its cake and eat it too. There is so much division in the Roman Catholic Church too. All you need to do to verify this statement is to read the postings on this Catholic site and the other Catholic site. The schism that it points to at non-catholic churches is the same schism found inside the walls of Rome. I believe God has a remnant chosen by grace in every generation. That remnant is not contained inside the walls of Rome, nor does Rome define the remnant.

The Roman Catholic institution needs to look in the mirror…

catholicforum.com/forums/index.php

forums.catholic-questions.org/index.php?

For baptism indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your baptism becomes unbaptism. So, if a man who is unbaptized keeps the precepts of the law, will not his unbaptism be regarded as baptism Then he who is physically baptized but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and baptism but break the law. For no one is a catholic who is merely one outwardly, nor is baptism outward and physical. But a catholic is one inwardly, and baptism is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - Rom 2 edited by me. 🙂

Galatians 6:15
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

The participation of water baptism does not necesarily mean that you have been born from above. It is impossible to please God for those who are still in the flesh, nor can you enter the kingdom of god without being born from above.
Click to expand...
 
Galatians 6:15

For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
 
MrS said:
Your bio says you are NOT Catholic…you are reformed protestant.

BIG difference.
Click to expand...
All true Christians are catholic. This is where Roman Catholics miss the universal invisible church of God. Even this Reformed Site will post the Apostles’ Creed. 🙂 In the eyes of God, you are either in Christ or in Adam. Your membership in the Roman Catholic Church cannot save you from the wrath of God and the day of judgement.

reformed.org/documents/index.html
 
Reformed said:
All true Christians are catholic. This is where Roman Catholics miss the universal invisible church of God. Even this Reformed Site will post the Apostles’ Creed. 🙂 In the eyes of God, you are either in Christ or in Adam. Your membership in the Roman Catholic Church cannot save you from the wrath of God and the day of judgement.

reformed.org/documents/index.html
Click to expand...
You are absolutly correct.! ! ! !

For one to claim to follow Christ includes in believing all, ALL, that He taught and said.

That would include His clear instructions and gift of His Real Presence in the Eucharist… and the “format” or method He chose to have the gift available (“I will be with you always…”)

If one walks away, or if one choses to believe different that what is taught by the only Church He founded… they may claim to be “true” christians. Sadly that is not the truth.

If family members, as indicated in the OP, chose to walk away from the gift of the Catholic Church, they too have become separated brethren.

It is strange to want to be a member of the family/home, let choose to live outside the home, and outside the authority found in the home.

.
 
MrS said:
You are absolutly correct.! ! ! !

For one to claim to follow Christ includes in believing all, ALL, that He taught and said.

That would include His clear instructions and gift of His Real Presence in the Eucharist… and the “format” or method He chose to have the gift available (“I will be with you always…”)

If one walks away, or if one choses to believe different that what is taught by the only Church He founded… they may claim to be “true” christians. Sadly that is not the truth.

If family members, as indicated in the OP, chose to walk away from the gift of the Catholic Church, they too have become separated brethren.

It is strange to want to be a member of the family/home, let choose to live outside the home, and outside the authority found in the home.

.
Click to expand...
That’s the Roman Catholic undestanding. However, many have rejected your beliefs in the light of the Holy Scripitures. 🤷

Psalm 119:105

Your word (Geneva Holy Bible with notes) is a lamp to my feet
and a light to my path.

…just kidding 👍
 
MrS said:
🤷 true… but the Light your refere to is Lite Light:shrug:

😉
Click to expand...
LOL…it’s lite because it’s not weighed down with the traditions of men. 😛 🙂 :blushing: :

Isn’t the contents of Sacred Tradition about 1,000 percentage greater in size than the Holy Scriptures?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top