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De_Maria
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On the contrary, I said that the Catholic Church had ID’d the inspired translation.
You just proved that you don’t know the meaning of “inspired” as regards the Scriptures.
Bible is inspired – what does this mean?
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Gorgias
Guest
Then demonstrate it. You haven’t.
So, here’s the thing: you could make the claim that, by defining a canon, the Church implicitly has identified books that are inspired – but not the claim that a particular translation is. The quote you gave us doesn’t make that claim.
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De_Maria
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Read it again. This says it is inspired:De_Maria:
Reading skills, @De_Maria, reading skills: you were claiming that it’s possible to ID translation(s) as ‘inspired’, and then you quote something that doesn’t make that claim at all.Gorgias:
You were saying.
Sure, it says that the Vulgate is an example of the books as canonical, and it says that the books themselves are ‘sacred’… but it doesn’t say what you think it’s saying. In fact, this decree merely identifies which books are part of the canon… not that any particular translation of them is ‘inspired.’
Perhaps you’d like a second try?
Following, then, the examples of the orthodox Fathers, it receives and venerates with a feeling of piety and reverence all the books both of the Old and New Testaments, **since one God is the author of both; also the traditions, whether they relate to faith or to morals, as having been dictated either orally by Christ or by the Holy Ghost,**
And this explicitly states that the Latin Vulgate is that version:
If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema.
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Hereiam
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Even Augustine said if you misinterpret scripture, but with charity, no harm is done…which is why if we consider teaching from the Magesterium, the differences between most mainstream translations dont make much of a difference.
I do not know what inspiration means, hence the question, but I know what
it is not.
Inspiration is not the Holy Spirit dictating.
John considers that the last supper was not a Passover meal, the other
evangelists claim it was. Thus at least one inspired evangelist is wrong.
it is not.
Inspiration is not the Holy Spirit dictating.
John considers that the last supper was not a Passover meal, the other
evangelists claim it was. Thus at least one inspired evangelist is wrong.
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Hereiam
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You are correct in the former, as proved in the later.
You have asked a fair question, but have summarily dismissed every answer offered by others.
Nobody can make you believe.
While many seem to be willing to help, you seem to be willing to be helped.
Why not end the suspense, and give us your answer, which you apparently already have, and let’s cut our losses.
Hereiam
I believe that Scripture is inspired by God, who is truly its author.
But I do not know what this means. I want to see a text about which I can say that these words are the inspired words of God. I cannot do this as we do not have an original text, even though the texts we have are presumably very close to, if not exactly the same as, the original texts.
I have looked up the Catechism of the Catholic Church
[http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm].
But I am still not clear.
One sees:
102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:64
105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69
134 All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, “because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ” (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe2,8
L 176,642: cf. ibid. 2,9L 176,642-643).135 “The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are inspired, they are truly the Word of God” (DV 24).
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Gorgias
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I might make that same challenge to you.
Here’s the question: does the text you’ve provided say that any particular translation is inspired? After all, that’s the question of this thread. So, let’s read your citation again:
De Maria:
Hmm… no, it doesn’t say what you say it claims. Yes, Scripture is inspired – and no one here is doubting that claim – but it doesn’t say that a particular translation is.
But, does your claim about the Vulgate hold up?
De Maria:
Again, is anyone doubting that the Vulgate contains the entirety of the canonical books? Nope.
Is anyone doubting that the books in the Vulgate are sacred? Nope.
Does this statement make the claim you say that it does? Nope. But hey… nice try.
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De_Maria
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There’s no shame in being wrong, Gorgias. You ought to be used to it by now.
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JoshuaIsLord
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yes, that is what I am implying as it pertains to the New Testament. As for the Old Testament, seek out Jews and their Hebrew version, but you have to learn Hebrew.
PM me.
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Gorgias
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No… of course not. Pot, meet kettle.
Thank goodness we have you here in your omniscience to guide us.
Perhaps we are in general (not complete) agreement. No version of the Bible that we have now is inspired, as we do not have the original text.
The Vulgate is the official version for Catholics, and is its authorized version, but it is not considered the inspired version by most Catholics.
That seems the agreed conclusions.
In 1546 the Council of Trent decreed that the Vulgate was the exclusive Latin authority for the Bible. It required its printing with as few errors as possible, resulting in the so-called (Pope) Clementine (VIII) Vulgate of 1592, with 80 Books. It became the authoritative biblical text of the Roman Catholic Church. From it the Confraternity Version was translated in 1941 and in 1965 the revised edition authorized by the second Vatican Council.
[Catholic Bibles]
The Vulgate is the official version for Catholics, and is its authorized version, but it is not considered the inspired version by most Catholics.
That seems the agreed conclusions.
In 1546 the Council of Trent decreed that the Vulgate was the exclusive Latin authority for the Bible. It required its printing with as few errors as possible, resulting in the so-called (Pope) Clementine (VIII) Vulgate of 1592, with 80 Books. It became the authoritative biblical text of the Roman Catholic Church. From it the Confraternity Version was translated in 1941 and in 1965 the revised edition authorized by the second Vatican Council.
[Catholic Bibles]
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De_Maria
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Two questions:
What do “most” Catholics have to do with it?
What did the Catholic Church mean when it infallibly defined the canon of the Vulgate as having been dictated either orally by Christ or by the Holy Ghost,:
Doesn’t that mean, “inspired”?
De_Maria
You ask ‘What do “most” Catholics have to do with it?’
You want to know why is it important to find out what most Catholics believe.
The Sensus Fidelium is important for Catholics.
Also during the Arian crisis when much of the hierarchy was in heresy the ordinary Catholics remained faithful, giving rise to the phrase Vox Populi Vox Dei (but this is queried in a CAF thread).
I see in the www:
This great fifth century fighter of heresy (St Vincent of Lerins) gave a formula for determining what Catholics must believe in the event of a rampant heresy. We must believe that which has everywhere been believed in the Church, always been believed, and by all universally (Quod Ubique, Semper, et Ab Omnibus).
Pope Benedict has written:
The Second Vatican Council, while confirming the specific and irreplaceable role of Magisterium, stressed, however, that the whole People of God participates in Christ’s prophetic office, thus fulfilling the inspired desire expressed by Moses, " If only all the people of the LORD were prophets! If only the LORD would bestow his spirit on them! "(Num 11:29). The Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium thus teaches us on the subject: “The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One,(111) cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole peoples’ supernatural discernment in matters of faith when “from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful” they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. "(n. 12). This gift, the sensus fidei, constitutes in the believer a kind of supernatural instinct that has a connatural life with the same object of faith.
Vat I defined the infallibility of the Church and Catholics are part of the Church, the People of God, the Mystical Body of Christ.
You ask ‘What do “most” Catholics have to do with it?’
You want to know why is it important to find out what most Catholics believe.
The Sensus Fidelium is important for Catholics.
Also during the Arian crisis when much of the hierarchy was in heresy the ordinary Catholics remained faithful, giving rise to the phrase Vox Populi Vox Dei (but this is queried in a CAF thread).
I see in the www:
This great fifth century fighter of heresy (St Vincent of Lerins) gave a formula for determining what Catholics must believe in the event of a rampant heresy. We must believe that which has everywhere been believed in the Church, always been believed, and by all universally (Quod Ubique, Semper, et Ab Omnibus).
Pope Benedict has written:
The Second Vatican Council, while confirming the specific and irreplaceable role of Magisterium, stressed, however, that the whole People of God participates in Christ’s prophetic office, thus fulfilling the inspired desire expressed by Moses, " If only all the people of the LORD were prophets! If only the LORD would bestow his spirit on them! "(Num 11:29). The Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium thus teaches us on the subject: “The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One,(111) cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole peoples’ supernatural discernment in matters of faith when “from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful” they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. "(n. 12). This gift, the sensus fidei, constitutes in the believer a kind of supernatural instinct that has a connatural life with the same object of faith.
Vat I defined the infallibility of the Church and Catholics are part of the Church, the People of God, the Mystical Body of Christ.
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De_Maria
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Who determines whether God is speaking through the Sensus Fidelium? You? Most Catholics? Or the Magisterium?
Do we take a census of the Catholic population to determine our doctrines? Or do we follow Magisterial Teaching?
How do you find these beliefs? By taking a census? Or by reading the Councils and Catechisms of the Church?
I’m a great believer in the Sensus Fidei, but when did the common man learn anything from the Sensus Fidei? I know that the Magisterium acknowledged the Sensus Fidei when it came to proclaiming some of the Marian Dogmas. Other than that, how do you know that any group of Catholics is expressing the Sensus Fidei? Or some heresy?
For example, were the Catholics who followed Feeney into schism, obeying the Sensus Fidei? Are the Catholics insisting on ordaining women priests, following the Sensus Fidei?
Please provide us the official definition of infallibility of the Church.
As for the question at issue, as to which version of the Bible is inspired, it is not a question which is resolved by taking a census of the Catholic lay population. This is something which has already been resolved by the Catholic Church in the Council of Trent, Session IV.
So, for this question, the Sensus Fidei is of no consequence.
De_Maria
Thanks for a comprehensive reply, but you ask many off-topic questions. I would prefer to stick to the focus of the thread, biblical inspiration.
You ask about the infallibility of the Church and the magisterium.
There are few infallible doctrines Catholics must believe. In over 100 years only the Assumption, Immaculate Conception and infallibility.
What the magisterium is is a vast topic, not the focus here.
The Faithful are part of the Church, and can influence what the bishops teach. This can be seen in the choice of those canonized, often following a strong lay campaigns, as can be seen in the cases of Sts JP II and Jose Maria Escriva. Many Catholics believe in Lourdes and Fatima, but these are not infallibly defined by the magisterium. Similarly, Many Catholics believe in Mary being the mediatrix of all graces, but this is not defined, but the views of the faithful may get it defined by the Church in the future.
I note what Fr Saunders wrote
To fulfill this task of teaching the faith without error, Christ granted the Church the charism of infallibility in faith and morals: “In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the Apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in His own infallibility” (No. 889). …
… The articles of the creed are true and certain, and to deny any or part of them is heresy. These decisions of the councils on matters of faith and morals “must be adhered to with the loyal and obedient assent of faith” (No. 25).
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/EXPLINFA.htm
I see in the CCC
85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48
87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.
The dogmas of the faith
88 The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.
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De_Maria
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Lol! If Sinsus Fidei is off topic, you brought it up. I’m simply making the point that the Catholic laity do not determine Catholic doctrine. The Catholic laity do not even have a say in identifying the Sensus fidei.De_Maria:
De_Maria
Thanks for a comprehensive reply, but you ask many off-topic questions. I would prefer to stick to the focus of the thread, biblical inspiration…
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goout
Guest
Gorgias has answered your questions well although you did not like the answer.
You are asking what inspiration is.
Finding inspiration is not a scientific or journalistic endeavor. You want materialist proof of a book that is definitively “the one”.
Inspiration is not about the what, it’s about the who. Inspiration is relational. It involves God and humanity. God inspires, and God inspires people. God doesn’t breathe a book, he breathes into a people. (in-spira, breathing into).
Before there was a written book, there was the Word made Flesh in Jesus Christ. When Jesus lived and died, Inspiration was already fully breathed into the world. Jesus is the fullness of revelation, of which scripture is part.
Still before the book is written, you have a community after Jesus ascends. Yet God’s inspiration is fully active in that community in the form of oral Tradition. How does your demand for a definitive version fit here? It cannot.
Inspiration resides in the relationship of God with the community he established (RCC), not a particular version of the bible.
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Benadam
Guest
Like most Catholic doctrine inspiration is pointed out by the Holy Spirit and the Church comes to recognize it. I think that’s how inspired writings come to be known as inspired. Not so much a decision but a recognition that has become obvious enough to know for sure.
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