Bible Light of some people..

[Sebastianos]

What is the origins of this 66 book Bible so many protestants use? What was the reason to omit books from the Bible? To make it fit better to ones teachings?

 

[suupah]

What is the origins of this 66 book Bible so many protestants use? What was the reason to omit books from the Bible? To make it fit better to ones teachings?

Is this flame bait? Because you are going to inflame some readers with this.

 

[Sebastianos]

a flame bait? What’s that?

I’m inquiring as I am curious about the history of the lutheran bible…And why some books are being called as apocrypha and not deuterocanonical ones. and omitted as well.

 

[Syele]

I’m not up for a long flaming debate. If you are really curious, Google it… You’ll get a nice long list of contradicting results… depending on if it’s a Catholic source or a non-Catholic one.

Here are just two:
Protestant:
watch.pair.com/apocrypha.html
Catholic:
cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=28

I have never seen a non-biased resource on this. Good luck in your studies.

 

[JoeyWarren]

this is my favorite subject

watch.pair.com/apocrypha.html

This guy is so full of that which fertilizes the earth naturally.

He contradicts himself in his essay:

The most influential benefactor of the Apocrypha was Augustine (354-420 A.D.), the “Father of corrupt theology.” He influenced the **Councils of Hippo (393 A.D.) and Carthage (397 A.D.) to declare the Apocrypha canonical. **

and then says:

The Apocrypha were formally canonized by the Roman Catholic ‘Church’ on April 8, 1546 A.D. at the Council of Trent.

amongst other bogus claims. Augustine (354-420 A.D.), the “Father of corrupt theology.”

 

[JoeyWarren]

Sargent said:

The Jews do not accept the Apocrypha as part of their Scriptures.

They are not, and have never been, in the Jewish canon.

Jewish scholars meeting at the Council of Jabneh did not recognize them.

Whenever the subject of the Deutorcanonicals comes up there is always one statement that is made:

“The Jews don’t recognize them as inspired by God.”

But like all things Satan only wants you to know part of the truth. He keeps the rest concealed and builds upon the one truth.

So where do people get the idea that Jews don’t believe they are inspired by God? Because that is what they been told. The source of the truth is hardly ever disclosed to average Christian. So what is the source? The Jamnia Council(Synod).

Council of Jamnia occurred around 92 AD. They made at least 5 Judgements that we know of against Christians.

A. Jesus is not the promised Messiah
B. Made the distinction between Jews and Heretics(Christians)
C. Expelled Christians from the Synagogues
D. They redefined Canon of the Tanach

 They set up 4 criteria that all books had to meet in order to be included. 

 1. The books had to conform to the Pentateuch (the first 5 books). 
 2. The books had to be written in Hebrew. 
 3. The books had to be written in Palestine.
 4. The books had to be written before 400 B.C..  

Baruch was not written in Palestine. Disqualified by reason 3.
Sirach and 1Maccabees were written after 400 B.C.. Disqualified by reason 4.
Tobit and parts of Daniel and Esther were written in Aramaic and outside of Palestine. 
Disqualified by reasons 2 and 3.
Judith was written in Aramaic. Disqualified by reason 2.
Wisdom was written in Greek. Disqualified by reason 2.
2Maccabees was written after 400 B.C. and in Greek. Disqualified by reasons 2 and 4.
New Testament disqualified by reason 2 and 4.

E: They added to their daily blessings which all Jews are required to read everyday this curse of Christians:

Officially called the “Birkat ha-minim”

“For the Apostates let there be no hope and the arrogant government be speedily uprooted in our days, Let the Nazarenes(Christians)and the minim(Heretics) be destroyed in a moment. Let them be blotted out of the Book of Life and not inscribled together with the Righteous. Blessed art thou oh Lord, who humblest the Proud.”

Why did the Jews do this?

The Temple was completely destroyed in 70 AD.
All the Priests were killed.
They were fearful that Christianity would overtake them.
They wanted to remove references that would be useful to Christians.

Prior to the birth of Christ, the Canon of the Tanach was the Alexandrian Canon a.k.a the Septuagint.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

What is the origins of this 66 book Bible so many protestants use?

No Church of Christ before the Protestant Reformation held to a 66-book Bible. Thus, the origin is purely Protestant.

What was the reason to omit books from the Bible?

The stated reasons vary, depending upon who you ask. Martin Luther stated the Letter of James was an “epistle of straw.” So he omitted it from what he considered the inspired Word of God. He likewise omitted the Book of Revelation, Hebrews, James, and Jude, parts of Daniel, Esther, and 7 other OT texts which were held to be Scripture by every Church of Christ before the Protestant Reformation.

The most common response by Protestant authors is “we simply hold to the scholarship of Origen and Jerome on the matter.” However, a closer look at this claim reveals it to be bogus. See here: How Big is Your Book of Daniel?*** ***

 

[Valke2]

Officially called the “Birkat ha-minim”

“For the Apostates let there be no hope and the arrogant government be speedily uprooted in our days, Let the Nazarenes(Christians)and the minim(Heretics) be destroyed in a moment. Let them be blotted out of the Book of Life and not inscribled together with the Righteous. Blessed art thou oh Lord, who humblest the Proud.”

“Birkat ha-Minim” or “ha-Ẓadduḳim” : the prayer against heretics and Sadducees (and traducers, informers, and traitors)

“May no hope be left to the slanderers; but may wickedness perish as in a moment; may all Thine enemies be soon cut off, and do Thou speedily uproot the haughty and shatter and humble them speedily in our days. Blessed be Thou, O Lord, who strikest down enemies and humblest the haughty”

I’d like to see where you got the translation for your version.

Also, I believe the prayer was in existence for about 3 centuries before the birth of Jesus.
netzarim.co.il/Shared/Birkat%20Ha-Minim,%20the%20Notzrim,%20and%20Jerome%20(XML).htm

The prayer has historically been invoked against different sets of heretics as needed.

The many different historical situations in which this prayer was used are reflected in the variant readings still extant. The text has been further confused as a result of censorship during the Middle Ages. In geonic times, this prayer was invoked against poshe’im (“sinners”) or, as Maimonides read it, against apikoresim (“heretics”), whereas in the Mahzor Salonika and in the Roman Mahzor it refers to meshummadim (“the apostates”). This term was further changed into ve-la-poshe’im, which later became ve-la-malshinim (“slanderers”). In some versions other expressions were substituted for the word minim: e.g., “all doers of iniquity,” regardless of origin and nationality. The Sephardi ritual retained minim. Instead of the passage “and all the enemies of Thy people,” as in older versions, the modified Ashkenazi and Roman rites read: “and they all.” The phrase malkhut zadon (“kingdom of arrogance”) by which the Roman Empire was meant, was changed by Amram b. Sheshna (Amram Gaon) into “the arrogant,” as in most rites. The concluding phrase “who breakest the enemies and humblest the arrogant” (Siddur Amram Ga’on) was replaced in some versions, by: “who breakest the evildoers” (Siddur Sa’adyah Ga’on and Maimonides). From the historical evidence, it is clear that this prayer was never meant to be directed against non-Jews in general, but rather against Jewish heretics and gentile persecutors of the Jews. Nevertheless Jews were often accused of including a special imprecation against Christians in their statutory prayers. In modern times, the text has further been adjusted and many prayer books substitute the impersonal “slander” and “evil” for “slanderers” and “evil doers.” In several Reform rites, the prayer has been modified or omitted.
headcoverings-by-devorah.com/BirkatHaManim_EncyJudaica.htm

 

[JoeyWarren]

“Birkat ha-Minim” or “ha-Ẓadduḳim” : the prayer against heretics and Sadducees (and traducers, informers, and traitors)

“May no hope be left to the slanderers; but may wickedness perish as in a moment; may all Thine enemies be soon cut off, and do Thou speedily uproot the haughty and shatter and humble them speedily in our days. Blessed be Thou, O Lord, who strikest down enemies and humblest the haughty”

I’d like to see where you got the translation for your version.

Directly from Keating himself via: surprisedbytruth.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=86

 

[rr1213]

The formation of the Old Testament Canon is a complex subject that is easily caricatured by both Protestants and Catholics. As such, the history of “what books were accepted as canon at what time by whom” is not as black and white as zealots on either side might suggest.

For example, read the following article at Catholic Encyclopedia…

newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm

 

[JoeyWarren]

hebrew4christians.com/Prayers/Daily_Prayers/Shemoneh_Esrei/Birkat_HaMinim/birkat_haminim.html

claims that it originally was the 19 blessing…and changed to the 12th.

Originally posted by: members.aol.com/johnprh/curse.html
It is to this meeting of Jews in Jamnia, or Jabneh, in the late first century that Protestants have consistently looked to determined their Old Testament. This same group of Rabbi’s required all the Jews to proclaim the above stated curse against all Jews who became Christians, and therefore against Christ Himself. So, Protestants must ask themselves, how can they be so sure that this group of Rabbi’s correctly discerned the Word of God as to what belonged in the Old Testament.

From: geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1551/history/nazarens.htm

Against Heretics

And for the slanderers Chronologically, this is the nineteenth blessing of the Shemoneh Esrei; it was instituted in Yavneh, during the tenure of Rabban Gamliel II as Nassi of Israel, some time after the destruction of the Second Temple. The blessing was composed in response to the threats of such heretical Jewish sects as the Sadducees, Boethusians, Essenes, and the early Christians. They tried to lead Jews astray through example and persuasion, and they used their political power to oppress observant Jews and slander them to the anti-Semitic Roman government.

In this atmosphere, Rabban Gamliel felt the need to compose a prayer against heretics and slanderers, and to incorporate it in the Shemoneh Esrei so that the populace would be aware of the danger.

Despite the disappearance from within Israel of the particular sects against whom it was directed, it is always relevant, because there are still non-believers and heretics who endanger the spiritual continuity of Israel (Yaaros D’vash).

I really don’t think the translation is an issue. It’s the underlying intent of the curse and the context of the curse.

 

[JoeyWarren]

After doing some searching I came across this:

yashanet.com/library/nazarene_judaism.html

The Birkat haMinim as it appears today reads:

And for slanderers let there be no hope, and let all wickedness perish as in a moment; let all thine enemies be speedily cut off, and the dominion of arrogance do you uproot and crush, cast down and humble speedily in our days. Blessed are you, YHVH, who breakest the enemies and humbles the arrogant.

But an old copy of the Birkat haMinim found at the Cairo Genizah reads:

For the renegades let there be no hope, and may the arrogant kingdom soon be rooted out in our days, and the Netzarim and the Minim perish as in a moment and be blotted out from the book of life and with the righteous may they not be inscribed. Blessed are you, YHVH, who humbles the arrogant.

This benediction was in the form of a curse on the Netzarim, which obviously had the effect of casting them out of the synagogues (Jn. 16:2) since Nazarenes who attended would be expected to recite a curse upon themselves. As Epiphanius records in the fourth century:

Not only do Jewish people have a hatred of [Netzarim]; they even stand up at dawn, at midday, and toward evening, three times a day when they recite their prayers in the synagogues, and curse and anathemize them. Three times a day they say, “Elohim curse the Nazarenes.” For they harbor an extra grudge against them, if you please, because despite their Jewishness, they proclaim that [Yahshua] is [Messiah]…(Epiphanius Panarion 29).

 

[JoeyWarren]

Just do a google search on Birkat ha-Minim

 

[Sebastianos]

Thanks JoeyWarren et al. Most enlightening,

 

[JoeyWarren]

Thanks JoeyWarren et al. Most enlightening,

you’re welcome

I have found numerous jewish-in-nature sites that reference this:

But an old copy of the Birkat haMinim found at the Cairo Genizah reads:

For the renegades let there be no hope, and may the arrogant kingdom soon be rooted out in our days, and the Netzarim and the Minim perish as in a moment and be blotted out from the book of life and with the righteous may they not be inscribed. Blessed are you, YHVH, who humbles the arrogant.

 

[JoeyWarren]

even a more precise search using

Birkat ha-Minim Cairo Geniza

yields a wealth of informtion.

 

[Sebastianos]

even a more precise search using

Birkat ha-Minim Cairo Geniza

yields a wealth of informtion.

Sure does. Thank you.
On a side note, knowing the historical fact that Luther was antisemitic for the better part of his life, although he became mellower in his attitudes later on, he endorses the anti-christian version of the Holy Bible. Weird logic…

 

[rciadan]

Martin Luther based his rejection of the 7 books ( and sections and entire chapters of others) on the Jewish Council of Jabnia. To get a good picture of that council, go to the link I have provided to an article that appeared in “This Rock” magazine a few years ago.
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp

One last thought; If you are going to listen to someone as to which books are in the bible, whould it be the voice of those who refused to accept that He is the Messia that you choose?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Sure does. Thank you.
On a side note, knowing the historical fact that Luther was antisemitic for the better part of his life, although he became mellower in his attitudes later on, he endorses the anti-christian version of the Holy Bible. Weird logic…

Yes wierd logic indeed.

 

[JoeyWarren]

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp

Thanks for the link. It has been saved off for further use.