Bible on par with Odyssey and Aeneid as literature?

[Mels]

I wasn’t quite sure where to put this.

In my class, World Lit from the Ancient World - 1650 AD, we are going to be studying some of the book of Exodus on Thursday. However, in the context of our class, it would be a study as how Moses was a hero in a Hebrew culture… and in the context, I believe it would be looked at as fictional literature. For the “thought question” we receive, I am going to first of all state that any interpretation or study of the bible as a fictional book is worthless and meaningless. I was told by two of my friends to speak to an FSSP priest and also to contact the Catholic League and beyond that just ask around for advice. So I decided I would come here and ask, too.

The class is Thursday (October 8, 2008) and I’m thinking I might skip the class (I’m in college), beyond writing the essay and calling around. What is your opinion on the matter?

 

[ChristinaM]

Hi, I hope someone who has studied the Bible more will chime in, but I believe there is nothing in Catholic teaching about analyzing the Bible as literature. I don’t think a literary analysis of the book of Exodus necessarily implies that it’s fictional.

 

[ac_claire]

bump

 

[ac_claire]

I don’t think a literary analysis of the book of Exodus necessarily implies that it’s fictional.

Well just think of the context, though. This is a class at a secular university about World Literature and they’re presenting parts of Sacred Scripture right next to the Odyssey and the Aeneid, presumably as another example of heroic literature.

They may not be officially saying that the Bible is fiction, period. But in the context of this class (remember, a *secular *class), the implication is strong enough that it’s unacceptable for a Catholic, IMO.

Remember we are talking about the written Word of God, which should be accorded due reverence.

 

[ac_claire]

Another thing about the context of the class- what are the Odyssey and the Aeneid? They are standards of ancient Greek and Roman mythology. So the story of Moses is…what then? A standard of Judeo-Christian mythology?

Not acceptable. Mels, you are right to be offended.

 

[mizznicole]

There is nothing wrong with using literary analysis in Biblical exegesis. The difference is the truth question. Your secular teacher will say this is just “one narrative among many”; we say that it is ultimately sacred and unique.

The Catholic Church is quite “liberal” in its use of methods. At the same time it has the standard of the deposit of faith which it uses to check its investigations.

You could do a service to this class if you were to research faithful Catholic commentary/biblical scholars and present how they use literary criticism.

Here’s something you might also want to read, the Erasmus Lecture by Joseph Ratzinger:
firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=1049

God bless. I know how on the defensive you can feel at a secular university.

 

[patg]

Of course the bible is “literature”, what else would it be? How else would the authors communicate the inspired truths in a manner to be read by others? The bible is a library of ancient books, just like a modern library is a varied collection of books. And yes, the bible does contain many forms of literature, just like a library. Understanding the forms of that literature is essential to understanding the truths the authors meant to convey.

The Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum) specifically states that the bible contains varied forms of literature and that those forms must be understood correctly in order to understand the scriptures:

*To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to “literary forms.” **For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. *The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. (7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another.

As the above states, truth is regularly expressed in a variety of forms and fiction is a perfectly acceptable form for expressing it.

However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

The Church has taught literary analysis of the scriptures for many years. If you are interested in more on this, don’t just trust me or any other random poster, get the book used in a large number of Catholic adult education classes “*And God Said What?: An Introduction to Biblical Literary Forms” *as a companion to your course.

 

[ac_claire]

Of course the bible is “literature”, what else would it be? How else would the authors communicate the inspired truths in a manner to be read by others? The bible is a library of ancient books, just like a modern library is a varied collection of books. And yes, the bible does contain many forms of literature, just like a library. Understanding the forms of that literature is essential to understanding the truths the authors meant to convey.

The Church has taught literary analysis of the scriptures for many years. If you are interested in more on this, don’t just trust me or any other random poster, get the book used in a large number of Catholic adult education classes “*And God Said What?: An Introduction to Biblical Literary Forms” *as a companion to your course.

Again, the issue is the context. This class is presenting the Bible as an example of mythology. If an orthodox Catholic scholar or class wants to reverently study the literary forms of the Bible, that’s one thing. But this is something different.

 

[jmcrae]

As far as I know, we don’t worship the Bible, so there is nothing they can do to it that would constitute “sacrilege.”

I think it’s great that secularists and atheists are reading it, for any reason, and I wouldn’t do anything to discourage them from doing so.

If they have it removed from the Mythology class because you are offended, I doubt they would reincorporate it into the World History class - I think they would just not read it at all.

 

[Leonius]

As the above states, truth is regularly expressed in a variety of forms and fiction is a perfectly acceptable form for expressing it.

No where does it use the word fiction and that is for a very good reason. And what is going to happen in this secular school is not what is been described in Dei Verbum. What is going to happen is that which was condemned in LAMENTABILI SANE:

""Therefore, after a very diligent investigation and consultation with the Reverend Consultors, the Most Eminent and Reverend Lord Cardinals, the General Inquisitors in matters of faith and morals have judged the following propositions to be condemned and proscribed. In fact, by this general decree, they are condemned and proscribed.

1. The exegete , if he wishes to apply himself advantageously to Biblical studies, should divest himself especially of any preconceived opinion about the supernatural origin of Sacred Scripture, and should interpret it just as he would other merely human documents." LAMENTABILI SANE"

However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

The human writers don’t come into it, the Sacred Scriptures were *dictated *by God.

"For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church, solemnly defined in the Councils of Florence and of Trent, and finally confirmed and more expressly formulated by the Council of the Vatican. " PROVIDENTISSIMUS DEUS

 

[Leonius]

As far as I know, we don’t worship the Bible, so there is nothing they can do to it that would constitute “sacrilege.”

Nobody said anything about worshipping he bible or sacrilege, however the fact that it is the written Word of God containing His Revelations to us to aid us towards salvation should count for something. The Church seems to have a lot more respect for the Bible than you are suggesting with that comment.

http://www.linley.com/saviour/DeaconBible.gif

I think it’s great that secularists and atheists are reading it, for any reason, and I wouldn’t do anything to discourage them from doing so.

Then you are naive, they are not reading with good will and hearts open to God’s grace they are presenting it as a work of myth with the intention of undermining belief in its Truth. I wish someone had discouraged Luther from reading it, along with many other enemies of the Church. Someone reading the Bible is not always good.

If they have it removed from the Mythology class because you are offended, I doubt they would reincorporate it into the World History class - I think they would just not read it at all.

Not necessarily a bad thing, better those interested pick it up on their own than a whole group be influenced by a disbelieving teacher into thinking the bible is just a fun work of fiction like the Aeniad and so never see the point in ever picking it up again.

 

[jmcrae]

Nobody said anything about worshipping he bible or sacrilege, however the fact that it is the written Word of God containing His Revelations to us to aid us towards salvation should count for something.

It does. But if they don’t open it for any reason, they won’t encounter the message, will they?

Then you are naive, they are not reading with good will and hearts open to God’s grace they are presenting it as a work of myth with the intention of undermining belief in its Truth.

Maybe that’s what the teachers intend, but for a lot of those people, it might be the first time they’ve picked up a Bible since Sunday School, and it might inspire them to reconnect with their childhood faith.

(My own early journey of faith included a couple of Mythology classes that included the Bible, and it actually presented opportunities to witness, which was also lots of fun.)

I think that you are naive to think that kids just believe everything their teachers tell them. I think that once the Bibles get into the hands of the kids, God will start to work on them.

 

[Leonius]

I think that you are naive to think that kids just believe everything their teachers tell them. I think that once the Bibles get into the hands of the kids, God will start to work on them.

God is already working on them. If faith was as simple to obtain as reading the Bible there would be a lot more Catholics in the world today and there would not be 33,000 Christian denominations.

 

[ac_claire]

I think it’s great that secularists and atheists are reading it, for any reason, and I wouldn’t do anything to discourage them from doing so.

If they have it removed from the Mythology class because you are offended, I doubt they would reincorporate it into the World History class - I think they would just not read it at all.

I see your point, jmcrae. But don’t you think there’s something to be said for keeping sacred things sacred? The way I’m seeing it, this might be one thing, but if one link in the chain fails the whole chain is weaker. I think Mels should stand up for her faith with this assignment.

Sidenote: maybe this thread belongs in the Sacred Scripture section?

 

[jmcrae]

I see your point, jmcrae. But don’t you think there’s something to be said for keeping sacred things sacred?

But on the other hand, Jesus told us to spread the Word to all the world. How can we do that, if we keep the Bible locked up, or tell certain kinds of people that they can’t read it?

 

[Leonius]

But on the other hand, Jesus told us to spread the Word to all the world. How can we do that, if we keep the Bible locked up, or tell certain kinds of people that they can’t read it?

No one is saying that jmcrae. But in this specific setting from this specific angle it is more likely to do harm than good.

Also the word isn’t spread by people just picking up and reading the Bible, for centuries the word was spread and hardly anyone read the Bible. The Bible alone is not enough, to understand it a teacher is needed as the Bible itself tells us.

 

[jmcrae]

No one is saying that jmcrae. But in this specific setting from this specific angle it is more likely to do harm than good.

Also the word isn’t spread by people just picking up and reading the Bible, for centuries the word was spread and hardly anyone read the Bible. The Bible alone is not enough, to understand it a teacher is needed as the Bible itself tells us.

What message does it send, if Catholics complain about the Bible being read in school?

 

[Leonius]

What message does it send, if Catholics complain about the Bible being read in school?

That is not what we are complaining about, please drop the sophism.

We are complaining specifically about it been read as a fictional myth. We are complaining about anti-Christian secularism been taught in public schools when they are supposed to be neutral on religion and respect the religious beliefs of the Christians who attend them.

We are asking for nothing more than that they treat Christianity with respect.

 

[jmcrae]

This not what we are complaining about, please drop the sophism.

We are complaining specifically about it been read as a fictional myth. We are complaining about anti-Christian secularism been taught in public schools when they are supposed to be neutral on religion and respect the religious beliefs of the Christians who attend them.

This is a public school?

I thought it was a university or a college - sorry!

You are right, they should not be teaching this in public school, nor anything to do with any religion, at that young age (including the Illiad and the Odyssey) - that is up to the parents, what beliefs they expose their young children to.

 

[ac_claire]

What message does it send, if Catholics complain about the Bible being read in school?

LOL nobody has said that.