Bible on par with Odyssey and Aeneid as literature?

[ac_claire]

This is a public school?

I thought it was a university or a college - sorry!

You are right, they should not be teaching this in public school, nor anything to do with any religion, at that young age (including the Illiad and the Odyssey) - that is up to the parents, what beliefs they expose their young children to.

No, it’s a public college. So yeah, although usually you think grade school when you hear “public school,” it’s a correct term for a public college or university as well.

 

[Mels]

Of course no one ever said “you can’t read the Bible” to them, but I would think it is more hurtful to tell them to read the Bible - not even the whole Bible, just an isolated part - and then tell them to interpret it on a whim, treating it as just another piece of literature to dissect and agree/disagree on various interpretations.

The Bible must be looked at as a whole, not just in pieces. The excerpt in our textbook goes to roughly chapter 22 of exodus, and it doesn’t provide all of the chapters or all the verses (for example, they provided chapter 6 up to verse 13 and later on they provided up to chapter 15 and then skipped to 20). Obviously the construction of how it’s set up in the textbook implies they want you to read it a certain way, but I sincerely doubt they care about what the Church officially says about the Bible (I could tell it was a KJV translation when I read the ten commandments section, which separated “thou shalt not put any gods before me” and “thou shalt not make a graven image…”). The book has agenda, if not a slight one, to make it comparable to other works of literature in it, treating it with indifference. I know in class my professor wants to compare Aeneas to Moses.

This is not about seeing the technical literary aspects of it; this is about coming up with your own interpretation of the Bible and Christianity/Judaism in general based on the fragments of Exodus we have read.

I have asked around and I am thinking of either preparing something with an explanation of Exodus in its correct context, or telling the professor before class that I will not be attending that specific class. Our thought question for class is to explain the nature of the God of Exodus; however, I find it difficult to get a complete picture of God in just one book. I refer to several other books and verses in the margins of my textbook, especially in reference to the Passover and the 10 commandments; how can my classmates who know so little really get a valid interpretation of it in an isolated form? I have no problem with them reading Scripture; just in this context I protest.

I’m still debating whether to go to the class or not.

 

[Mels]

This is a public school?

I thought it was a university or a college - sorry!

You are right, they should not be teaching this in public school, nor anything to do with any religion, at that young age (including the Illiad and the Odyssey) - that is up to the parents, what beliefs they expose their young children to.

This is indeed a public university - don’t you know most people lose their faith in college and become agnostic? It’s probably because classes like this when you are taught to look at the Bible indifferently and leaving it open to your own interpretation, and not looking in its correct context. Then when people can’t defend their faith because of their poor catechesis, they fall into a sort of moral relativism and lukewarm Catholicism. One girl in this class describes herself as “agnostic/relativistic Catholic”. Most of the rest aren’t even any religion; the majority (though not everyone) are either agnostic or atheist. Presenting it this way destroys all sense of Truth and sanctity of the Scriptures. By the grace of God I have an above-average knowledge of Scripture and the Catholic faith.

I don’t mind covering the Bible in class, if it is given the proper respect it deserves. In this context, however, I feel something isn’t quite right about us all going home and reading this, then coming to class and discussing whatever we thought of the text as though it were another piece of literature and not Holy Scripture.

 

[jmcrae]

This is indeed a public university - don’t you know most people lose their faith in college and become agnostic? It’s probably because classes like this when you are taught to look at the Bible indifferently and leaving it open to your own interpretation, and not looking in its correct context. Then when people can’t defend their faith because of their poor catechesis, they fall into a sort of moral relativism and lukewarm Catholicism. One girl in this class describes herself as “agnostic/relativistic Catholic”. Most of the rest aren’t even any religion; the majority (though not everyone) are either agnostic or atheist. Presenting it this way destroys all sense of Truth and sanctity of the Scriptures. By the grace of God I have an above-average knowledge of Scripture and the Catholic faith.

I don’t mind covering the Bible in class, if it is given the proper respect it deserves. In this context, however, I feel something isn’t quite right about us all going home and reading this, then coming to class and discussing whatever we thought of the text as though it were another piece of literature and not Holy Scripture.

I doubt that these people go into College with any kind of personalized faith. They “lose” their faith because they never had any to begin with - as soon as they leave home they never go to Mass again, because they don’t have Mummy and Daddy to drag them there, kicking and screaming.

It’s not because they encounter ideas that go contrary to the faith while they’re at school - if anything, that should strengthen them, when they go to find out what the Church really teaches. But if they aren’t interested in what the Church teaches, then it won’t matter what the curriculum contains; they’ll still lose their faith.

I know for myself, Mythology class was really where I strengthened my ideas about God, and learned to defend my beliefs in public, by pitting them against the pagans and the agnostics - but if it had just been a “Greek gods” course, I doubt I would have engaged the culture from a faith perspective - it would have been just one more exercise in memorization.

 

[Mels]

I doubt that these people go into College with any kind of personalized faith. They “lose” their faith because they never had any to begin with - as soon as they leave home they never go to Mass again, because they don’t have Mummy and Daddy to drag them there, kicking and screaming.

Likely, but this is also a commuter college - most people here are still living at home.

It’s not because they encounter ideas that go contrary to the faith while they’re at school - if anything, that should strengthen them, when they go to find out what the Church really teaches. But if they aren’t interested in what the Church teaches, then it won’t matter what the curriculum contains; they’ll still lose their faith.

But does that mean the curriculum should still maintain an anti-Christian stance? Of course not.

I know for myself, Mythology class was really where I strengthened my ideas about God, and learned to defend my beliefs in public, by pitting them against the pagans and the agnostics - but if it had just been a “Greek gods” course, I doubt I would have engaged the culture from a faith perspective - it would have been just one more exercise in memorization.

I’m glad it strengthened your faith, but this still doesn’t mean that Scripture should be presented like fiction/mythology in school where it’s up to your own private interpretation. It shows a lack of respect towards the Scripture as such and it also shows a lack of respect for the Christians who uphold it. It’s things like this that make agnosticism seem so “scholarly” when it’s really just skepticism based on false premises.

 

[jmcrae]

But does that mean the curriculum should still maintain an anti-Christian stance? Of course not.

If it’s supposed to be a Christian school, then no. But if it’s a secular school, then you have to expect them to uphold secularism - we all know that secularism is its own religion; we complain about it all the time. But then we act all surprised when secular schools uphold the tenets of secularism?

They are putting the Bible in the Mythology section because they really do believe that all religions are the same. I’m not sure why that’s so surprising.

 

[Mels]

If it’s supposed to be a Christian school, then no. But if it’s a secular school, then you have to expect them to uphold secularism - we all know that secularism is its own religion; we complain about it all the time. But then we act all surprised when secular schools uphold the tenets of secularism?

They are putting the Bible in the Mythology section because they really do believe that all religions are the same. I’m not sure why that’s so surprising.

I’m not surprised by secularism in school. In fact it really is expected. However my question merely is what should I, as a Christian, do? I can’t deny my own faith; I can’t ignore this and go along with secularism. This is not just a lament as to how the Bible is being treated here, but I’m trying to discern what I personally can do about this, and to what degree I must go to handle it properly. The Bible shouldn’t be treated like secular literature and it can’t be truly studied as secular literature, because its nature is not secular. I can’t sit back and accept the lies of secularism, but I have to protest in some form. If any university wanted to seriously study the Bible in an objective and scholarly way, it would have to be studied in isolation from secularism and taught in the proper context. However I am aware of the secularism, which can’t really be avoided.

My conscience and what I know of the Bible tells me in truth I can’t look at the Bible as fiction, because I know it is not fiction and it can’t be studied in this manner. This puts me in an awkward predicament for this class. So I am discerning the best course of action for me which would say enough to make a point without going overboard. This is why I made this post to begin with; to get advice as to how to proceed given this knowledge from fellow Catholics. Obviously I will have to protest in some way, and I may just write that into my essay and leave it at that. The question of whether or not to attend class based on my conscience’s protest to the Bible being presented in this manner is still up in the air, but I am leaning towards going and being prepared to present my faith if need be.

 

[Argh]

It’s good that you at least have a class where the Bible is a primary source! =)

My advice is to go to class. Believe it or not, but there are teachers out there who ARE responsible in their use of sacred texts. See HOW the Bible is to be treated there so you can make a better decision.

All the texts you mentioned might very well be grouped together because they were for so long NOT texts, but oral tradition. The Odyssey wasn’t written down for hundreds of years and passed down orally and nothing was taken from it, but some things may very well have been added to keep it “current” so the listeners could understand and identify with it.

The Bible you know about and almost all of it was passed down orally for various lengths of time (the Gospels weren’t written down for what, 30-40 years?). Hebrew scripture survived in its oral form for much, much, much longer than that.

So go to class. As B16 has said, don’t read it for the purpose of gaining scholastic knowledge, however, but treat it with the spiritual care it deserves when you do read it. That shouldn’t mean that you CAN’T discuss a section of the Bible because, perhaps, your teacher wants to illustrate how Moses was an epic hero in ancient Hebrew culture.

Again, be thankful in your school there’s an attempt to study religion!

 

[ac_claire]

It’s not because they encounter ideas that go contrary to the faith while they’re at school - if anything, that should strengthen them, when they go to find out what the Church really teaches. But if they aren’t interested in what the Church teaches, then it won’t matter what the curriculum contains; they’ll still lose their faith.

Having the Bible presented as subjective literature does not help matters. Even if what you are saying is true…why add rocks to an already-sinking ship? Keep your sacred things sacred.

I know for myself, Mythology class was really where I strengthened my ideas about God, and learned to defend my beliefs in public, by pitting them against the pagans and the agnostics - but if it had just been a “Greek gods” course, I doubt I would have engaged the culture from a faith perspective - it would have been just one more exercise in memorization.

If this was your experience, I’m happy for you. But we can’t count on people having this experience. I’d say you’re the exception and the scenario Mels described above is the more usual situation. The logical and most predictable reaction to the Bible presented as comparative literature is that faith will be weakened and a vague sense of confusion and relativism will be strengthened.

 

[thenewmrssears]

Disclaimer and Disclosure: I didn’t read any of the replies.

I took a history class that did the same, and I actually thought it was really interesting. There is nothing wrong with looking at the Bible as historical fact and analyzing the dates, location etc. In the same class we read: Paradise Lost, The Odyssey, Beowulf, and a few other “epic” pieces.

My teacher was definitely secular, but he did a really really good job. I thoroughly enjoyed the two weeks we spent discussing the Bible as a piece of literature. Sure, it took the religion out of it, but there is nothing wrong with studying it as literature objectively.

It was interesting, and at the same time I was taking my Biblical history class requirement, and the two teachers basically were saying almost the same thing.

I wouldn’t skip the class. Go, and if you disagree so be it. You aren’t going to agree with everything a college professor says on any given topic. Life is the same way.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not surprised by secularism in school. In fact it really is expected. However my question merely is what should I, as a Christian, do?

If you feel this strongly that your teachers need to take the Christian attitude towards the Bible, to the point where you would protest in class, then perhaps what you need is to go to a Christian school.

I hear that Franciscan University in Steubenville is very, very good.

 

[ac_claire]

So, bottom line. You don’t skip the class, but you express your views on this subject, in your written assignment and/or verbally if necessary. Only consider a protest if you are somehow censured for your views, (which I don’t think will happen.) Next year, transfer to a Catholic school.

 

[dulcissima]

I majored in classics at a public university. I have read Homer’s Odyssey and Virgil’s Aeneid in the original Greek and Latin. I am a Catholic and don’t see a conflict with either examining the literary devices in the Bible or with looking at the universal truths that are preserved in the ancient epics.

When I learned about Biblical typology, I thought it became quite evident that there is no way that the Bible could not be divinely inspired. The parallels and foreshadowing that occur through out the various books which were written centuries apart could not have been so perfectly put together by one author, let alone numerous authors.

I think when you read some of the other ancient works, you are missing the point if you are more worried about whether or not something is true, but letting the truth contained in it elude you altogether. What is truth and what is true are two entirely different things.

I will tell you, that having studied classical literature, I am more convinced than ever that Catholics are correct in their teaching about purgatory. What is described about the afterlife in epic literature gives us a big hint as to the truth. These ancients, before the time of Jesus, saw the afterlife as more a dull waiting place than a heaven or a hell. If you think about it that makes sense since Christ had not yet come.

The catechism teaches us that other religions throughout history have served to prepare man for the Gospel message. I think it is no coincidence that God chose to become man and reveal himself to us at the particular point in history that he did. Studying the history and literature that preceded this point can be enlightening in this regard. I don’t find it unsettling that there are parallels between Christ and other epic heroes. After all, God is a master at foreshadowing,

 

[Argh]

I majored in classics at a public university. I have read Homer’s Odyssey and Virgil’s Aeneid in the original Greek and Latin. I am a Catholic and don’t see a conflict with either examining the literary devices in the Bible or with looking at the universal truths that are preserved in the ancient epics.

When I learned about Biblical typology, I thought it became quite evident that there is no way that the Bible could not be divinely inspired. The parallels and foreshadowing that occur through out the various books which were written centuries apart could not have been so perfectly put together by one author, let alone numerous authors.

I think when you read some of the other ancient works, you are missing the point if you are more worried about whether or not something is true, but letting the truth contained in it elude you altogether. What is truth and what is true are two entirely different things.

I will tell you, that having studied classical literature, I am more convinced than ever that Catholics are correct in their teaching about purgatory. What is described about the afterlife in epic literature gives us a big hint as to the truth. These ancients, before the time of Jesus, saw the afterlife as more a dull waiting place than a heaven or a hell. If you think about it that makes sense since Christ had not yet come.

The catechism teaches us that other religions throughout history have served to prepare man for the Gospel message. I think it is no coincidence that God chose to become man and reveal himself to us at the particular point in history that he did. Studying the history and literature that preceded this point can be enlightening in this regard. I don’t find it unsettling that there are parallels between Christ and other epic heroes. After all, God is a master at foreshadowing,

I myself am so thankful now we don’t have a fickle Olympian god for a savior after going through and analyzing the Odyssey, well put!