Bible-only Christians: Why do you use the Bible?

[Kay_Cee]

Oh…goodie…another hypothetical

Oh goodie…a new wrinkle.

It does present a complication, but not an insurmountable one.

I suppose He would just have to start reading them and make a decision on what is credible and what is not. One thing he has plenty of on this island is time.

He might not get even very far into Genesis before concluding the whole book is nonsense because of apparent contradictions.

Which did God create first, man or animals? According to chapter 1, he created animals first. But chapter 2 implies he created man first.

Did God create man and woman at the same time or separately? According to chapter 1, they seem to have been created at the same time, but chapter 2 has man created first, then woman.

Without another source (like a teacher), how can he reconcile these apparent inconsistencies? He might, like the eunuch in Acts 8:31, ask, “How can I (understand) unless someone instructs me?”

But anyway, someone telling him the Bible is the inerrant word of God does little in this scenario. He would still have to decide whether the person telling him this is credible or not.

Besides we overlook the whole role of the Holy Spirit in the conversion process. Maybe the Holy Spirit is influencing Tom Hanks to conclude that the Biblical account of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is true while the Book of Mormon is rubbish.

Then our friend Tom is getting information from a source outside the Bible.

And, therefore, not everything he needs to know to be saved is inside the Bible. He also needs this information from the Holy Spirit.

Look, Mozart, I realize this is difficult to grasp. You’ve been so ingrained with the concept that the Bible is the word of God that it’s difficult for you to step outside that and into someone else’s shoes. I understand. It’s difficult for me too.

But you are beginning your argument from the position that the Bible is the word of God is a given. And if this were just a discussion between Christians, that would be a good starting point.

But we’re talking about someone who is not a Christian, someone who is not even a believer in God. If you were having this discussion with someone who is an atheist (not in the sense of having rejected God but in the sense of never having come to believe), just handing him the Bible is not enough. You admit he needs more, like a nudging from the Holy Spirit.

 

[mozart-250]

I’m pretty sure the thief knew Jesus, he obviously recognized him and knew of his reputation as the messiah. And it’s also obvious the bad thief knew him as well. Why does that seem to matter? Neither of them had a bible

Because the reader of the Bible can read of Jesus.

Since I obviously am having a hard time being understood…I will simplify this.

Possible or Impossible?

Tom Hanks as a castaway on a desert island picks up a Bible with no prior knowledge of what it is…reads the account of the life of our Lord as recorded in the gospels…reads the account of the death of our lord as recorded in the gospels…reads the account of the thief of the cross as the recorded in the gospels…says the same prayer the thief on the cross said as recorded in the gospels…receives the same gift of eternal life the thief on the cross did.

Possible or Impossible?

 

[mozart-250]

Then our friend Tom is getting information from a source outside the Bible.

And, therefore, not everything he needs to know to be saved is inside the Bible. He also needs this information from the Holy Spirit.

Well d’uh.

Of course we believe that without the Holy Spirit nobody can receive saving faith. The Bible says so much itself. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

So we can refine and clarify the statement a little to:

All that one needs to know to be saved is inside the Bible. However the work of the Holy Spirit is still necessary in order for one to come to saving faith in Jesus Christ. Better?

 

[Kay_Cee]

Well d’uh.

I can do without the sarcasm.

Of course we believe that without the Holy Spirit nobody can receive saving faith. The Bible says so much itself. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

So we can refine and clarify the statement a little to:

All that one needs to know to be saved is inside the Bible. However the work of the Holy Spirit is still necessary in order for one to come to saving faith in Jesus Christ. Better?

Except that your last two sentences contradict each other. If **all **one needs to know to be saved is inside the Bible, then you don’t need the prompting of the Holy Spirit. After all, that prompting would be giving you information that what you’re reading is reliable. That’s a datum you need in addition to the data in the Bible.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Because the reader of the Bible can read of Jesus.

Since I obviously am having a hard time being understood…I will simplify this.

Possible or Impossible?

Tom Hanks as a castaway on a desert island picks up a Bible with no prior knowledge of what it is…reads the account of the life of our Lord as recorded in the gospels…reads the account of the death of our lord as recorded in the gospels…reads the account of the thief of the cross as the recorded in the gospels…says the same prayer the thief on the cross said as recorded in the gospels…receives the same gift of eternal life the thief on the cross did.

Possible or Impossible?

Although this wasn’t addressed to me, I would like to answer the question.

It’s impossible without having faith in Jesus. I can read the scripture, I can say the prayer, but without faith those words are empty of meaning.

 

[mozart-250]

Although this wasn’t addressed to me, I would like to answer the question.

It’s impossible without having faith in Jesus. I can read the scripture, I can say the prayer, but without faith those words are empty of meaning.

OK…then add “come to faith in Jesus” to the mix. Make the statement thus (nobody says I get my wording right the first time).

Tom Hanks as a castaway on a desert island picks up a Bible with no prior knowledge of what it is…reads the account of the life of our Lord as recorded in the gospels…reads the account of the death of our lord as recorded in the gospels…reads the account of the thief of the cross as the recorded in the gospels…says the same prayer the thief on the cross said as recorded in the gospels…comes to true faith in Jesus like the thief on the cross did…receives the same gift of eternal life the thief on the cross did.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

Because the reader of the Bible can read of Jesus.

Since I obviously am having a hard time being understood…I will simplify this.

Possible or Impossible?

Tom Hanks as a castaway on a desert island picks up a Bible with no prior knowledge of what it is…reads the account of the life of our Lord as recorded in the gospels…reads the account of the death of our lord as recorded in the gospels…reads the account of the thief of the cross as the recorded in the gospels…says the same prayer the thief on the cross said as recorded in the gospels…receives the same gift of eternal life the thief on the cross did.

Possible or Impossible?

This is a tough question. Only Jesus knew the heart of the thief. Even if he didn’t ask for it he might have already received salvation through his contrite heart. So perhaps the prayer was nothing more than a literary illustration of a changed heart, right? The prayer itself has absolutely no power at all.

So in answer to the question, if he read the prayer out loud every day for 1000 years and never believed and repented then it would be improbable (only God can say impossible, I didn’t get to have that power).

On the other hand, if he only read John 3:16 and was so moved by the thought that he fell madly in love with the Lord, but never went back and read the part about the passion, then I would have to call him a saved soul.

What do you think? Heart or mind?

BTW, I am so glad you are willing to discuss this with us. I am really learning quite a bit.

God Bless You.

 

[mozart-250]

Except that your last two sentences contradict each other. If **all **one needs to know to be saved is inside the Bible, then you don’t need the prompting of the Holy Spirit. After all, that prompting would be giving you information that what you’re reading is reliable. That’s a datum you need in addition to the data in the Bible.

Are they contradictory or complementary.

Often to think something through I try to think of related examples that are not Christian.

Say I’m assembling my gas grill. I look at the instructions but don’t know whether to follow them thinking they might be unreliable.

Then say my friend who successfully assembled a gas grill tells me…“go ahead…follow the instructions…all you need to know is in the instructions”. Did my friend contradict himself.

In this case all you need to know is in the instructions…but my friend just gave me the confirmation the instructions are reliable. Maybe the work of the Holy Spirit is like that.

If I gave this some more thought maybe I could come up with a better example.

What is a daturn?

Oh btw I did not mean to be sarcastic and would change my wording if it came across that way. It is just that after a gazillion posts, a key part of the equation was overlooked.

 

[mozart-250]

On the other hand, if he only read John 3:16 and was so moved by the thought that he fell madly in love with the Lord, but never went back and read the part about the passion, then I would have to call him a saved soul.

What do you think? Heart or mind?

BTW, I am so glad you are willing to discuss this with us. I am really learning quite a bit.

God Bless You.

:clapping: :clapping: :tiphat: :clapping: :tiphat:

 

[E.E.N.S]

Because the reader of the Bible can read of Jesus.

Since I obviously am having a hard time being understood…I will simplify this.

Possible or Impossible?

Tom Hanks as a castaway on a desert island picks up a Bible with no prior knowledge of what it is…reads the account of the life of our Lord as recorded in the gospels…reads the account of the death of our lord as recorded in the gospels…reads the account of the thief of the cross as the recorded in the gospels…says the same prayer the thief on the cross said as recorded in the gospels…receives the same gift of eternal life the thief on the cross did.

Possible or Impossible?

Possible, yes, but improbable. Without any knowledge of God, or anything relating, a person picking up the Bible, reading about burning bushes that talk, water turning into blood, a staff turning into a snake, etc., a person with a sound mind will naturally think he is reading a fiction piece, unless of course he has some outside source claiming/instructing him that what really seems like a work of fiction is in actuality a piece of history and truth inspired by an omnipotent God working through men. Only then can/will he begin to discern whether or not it is credible, and this will be factored largely upon whether or not the source claiming such is credible.

(And as for a person saying a prayer to be saved, you forgot to mention the factor of faith (among other things) that are necessary for the prayer to have any merit.)

 

[mozart-250]

Possible, yes, but improbable.

Fine. Speculating on the probabilities of hypotheticals seems like a very fruitless conversation.

I did miss a sentence on faith on pass 1. I am not a theologian and I forget stuff.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Are they contradictory or complementary.

Often to think something through I try to think of related examples that are not Christian.

Say I’m assembling my gas grill. I look at the instructions but don’t know whether to follow them thinking they might be unreliable.

Then say my friend who successfully assembled a gas grill tells me…“go ahead…follow the instructions…all you need to know is in the instructions”. Did my friend contradict himself.

What your friend is doing is telling you the instructions are reliable. Those instructions could very well have information that seems contradictory on the surface (like I pointed out the book of Genesis has). Your friend would show you how the instructions make sense, despite their seeming contradictions. That’s adding a piece of information.

Besides, I don’t see how the analogy holds. Having faith that a book of instructions for a gas grill was written by a human author is nowhere near the faith required to believe scripture was authored by God.

In this case all you need to know is in the instructions…but my friend just gave me the confirmation the instructions are reliable. Maybe the work of the Holy Spirit is like that.

If so, then the Holy Spirit is giving you information not contained in the Bible. And that’s what this is all about, isn’t it?

If I gave this some more thought maybe I could come up with a better example.

What is a daturn?

A piece of information. The plural of datum is data.

Oh btw I did not mean to be sarcastic and would change my wording if it came across that way. It is just that after a gazillion posts, a key part of the equation was overlooked.

All is forgiven.

It seems to me we are talking past each other.

I agree that most of what we need to know is in the Bible, just not all of it. And the most primary of those things is that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. I have to agree with E.E.N.S. that scripture can often sound like fiction.

My best friend in high school was Buddhist. She told me once that Buddha’s mother had a dream that a white elephant entered her side, and that’s how she became pregnant with Buddha. My friend accepted that this was actually true.

Now, we also have a virgin birth in our scripture. Both stories can sound equally absurd to a non-believer. A faith that scripture is the word of God is required before one can believe it is actually God speaking to us through scripture.

I’d get into this more now, but I’m afraid I’m having one of those days when my blood pressure drops and I end up very woozy and somewhat nauseous. (Sometimes it gets so low my doctor is amazed I’m still conscious.) I’m afraid I’m going to have to drop out of the discussion until I feel better.

 

[mozart-250]

I’d get into this more now, but I’m afraid I’m having one of those days when my blood pressure drops and I end up very woozy and somewhat nauseous. (Sometimes it gets so low my doctor is amazed I’m still conscious.) I’m afraid I’m going to have to drop out of the discussion until I feel better.

That is fine…

It doth seem that any disagreements at this point are over semantics and technicalities. I am not going to belabour semantics and technicalities.

Heaven help us all if the divisions in the body of Christ are ultimately due to semantics and technicalities.

 

[Kay_Cee]

That is fine…

It doth seem that any disagreements at this point are over semantics and technicalities. I am not going to belabour semantics and technicalities.

Heaven help us all if the divisions in the body of Christ are ultimately due to semantics and technicalities.

Well, I agree. Hey, we finally agree about something!

What I’m trying to say is that none of us approach the Bible like our castaway friend. We’ve all gleaned some information from society–we don’t exist in vacuums, after all. Having been told that a lot of people consider it the word of God is bound to have an influence of some sort. I’m sure those in mid-Eastern cultures have heard the same about the Koran and therefore are more likely to consider it valid.

And when non-Christians see Christians filled with joy from faith in Christ, that will influence them to examine the Bible’s claims more favorably. So perhaps this is a lesson to us all to be examples of Christ’s love to an unbelieving world.

 

[Dulcimer]

Are you feeling better, Kay Cee?

concerned

–D <><

 

[Kay_Cee]

Are you feeling better, Kay Cee?

concerned

–D <><

Yes, thank you. I just have problems with my blood pressure sometimes, especially during the summer when it’s so hot and I sweat a lot.

 

[Dulcimer]

BACK TO TOPIC

For those who haven’t read back all the way…First post in this thread:

This is a sincere question. I’m trying to see the logic behind the reasoning of certain Protestants. If the Catholic Church compiled and preserved the Bible, why do you accept it? If the Church was in such “error,” why would you accept something from them, such as a Holy Book? Why not compile a Holy Book of your own? After all, the Church “erred” in its ways, so why wouldn’t it have erred with the Bible too?

I’m looking for charitable and honest discussion from both parties.

In Pax Christi
Andrew

 

[brosam]

This is a sincere question. I’m trying to see the logic behind the reasoning of certain Protestants. If the Catholic Church compiled and preserved the Bible, why do you accept it?

Assuming that this were true, that Roman Catholicism doesn’t follow the Bible doesn’t mean that the Bible isn’t correct.

 

[dosdog]

Assuming that this were true, that Roman Catholicism doesn’t follow the Bible doesn’t mean that the Bible isn’t correct.

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2Ti 3:16-17).

Lexicon / Concordance for 2Ti 3:16
scripture - graphē - Pronunciation grä-fā’

1. a writing, thing written
   Greek for G1124 γραφή

Brosam4GnosticJesus - This passage specifically excludes YOU - God did not give Any Scripture in the Bible to YOU - You did not Preserve it - YOU did not Translate it - You are Not an ordained member of the TRUE CHURCH protected by the HOLY SPIRIT to Teach it.
blueletterbible.org/

 

[Fisher]

This is a sincere question. I’m trying to see the logic behind the reasoning of certain Protestants. If the Catholic Church compiled and preserved the Bible, why do you accept it? If the Church was in such “error,” why would you accept something from them, such as a Holy Book? Why not compile a Holy Book of your own? After all, the Church “erred” in its ways, so why wouldn’t it have erred with the Bible too?

I’m looking for charitable and honest discussion from both parties.

In Pax Christi
Andrew

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” -2nd Timothy 3:16

Evidence That the Bible is God’s Word:

Because it claims to be (as read in our Scripture above).

Because It hits the nail right on the head concerning the sinfulness of mankind. 2nd Timothy 3:1-7 reads, “: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Mankind is evil through and through. The humanists say man can improve. The New Age gang says that we can become gods. Evolutionists claim we all came from apes (with NO proof whatsoever). The Mormons say we can become gods. Do you think the American Psychiatric Association is going to tell you that you’re a sinner on your way to Hell if you die in your sins? No! This is not just religion friend, this is YOUR LIFE!!! What Book is there on this earth that gives you the plain truth about mankind and life? THE WORD OF GOD is the only answer! The Bible plainly teaches that man is prone to destruction because man has a sin-nature (Romans 3:10,23;5:12;7:21).

Archaeology is in agreement with the Word of God. Not one spadefull of dirt has ever been uncovered to disprove the Word of God. In fact, many Archaeological expeditions have provided substantial evidence in support of Biblical claims. We don’t need Archeology to prove the Bible, the Bible is evidence enough by itself. Yet, here are more proofs if you need them. The Bible Itself is all the evidence I need.

The Bible is scientifically accurate. Isaiah 40:22 declares that the earth is round. Leviticus 17:11 declares that the life is in the blood. For centuries doctors foolishly drained the blood out of their patients resulting in certain death. The Bible also mentions astronomy, Job 9:9 mentions Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades. Proverb 17:22 teaches that good health is directly linked to being happy. Psychiatrists offices are overflowing today with the stressed out people. Happiness can only come from being saved and living for the Truth of God’s Word.

The Bible was miraculously written. The Bible was written over a 1,500 year period by 40 different men as God’s Holy Spirit moved through them. There is NO earthly way possible that so many men (most of whom never met each other), could have written so many different books in different styles that all perfectly merge into one meaningful Book, but with God all things are possible!!!

To him who believes, no explanation is necessary; to him that believeth not, no explanation is possible.

Let God be true.