Bible Only Christians

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I have a few friends who say they only follow the Bible, and they cannot comprehend Catholic Tradition. I can relate to this somewhat, being a convert from the Lutheran faith. My response to them is always “show me in the Bible where it says that it is all you should pay attention to!” Of course this is not good enough for them.
Ironically, they all three were raised Catholic as children. Any suggestions or Scripture to quote?:confused:
 
You could ask them how they even know what the bible says, since it is very easy to find other “I only follow the bible” believers who will believe different things than they do.

I’d also focus on baptism and John 6. The bible is pretty clear that baptism is necessary for salvation, and that we must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ to have eternal life. So why don’t they follow those parts of the bible?
 
You can point out that the Apostles pass along information to their followers via word of mouth. And that Tradition comes from the word Traditiso (sp?) which means “To pass along”, really explain to them that Tradition means really oral teachings.

There are some good quotes, but often with Protestant Bibles the positive use of the word tradition comes out as “teaching” or another synonym, and not actually the word for tradition, this may be a problem. =p

I’m sure there’ll be verses here in a moment.

Pax
 
So you want to thump the thumpers.
You need to do your homework.
Here is your resource and your assignment.

Scripture Catholic
scripturecatholic.com/

happy thumping:p
 
My memory is lacking a little here, but in one of Paul’s letters (I think it’s in either one of the letters to the Corinthians or Thessalonians) he writes that they are to keep the traditions they received by either letter or by word.
 
My memory is lacking a little here, but in one of Paul’s letters (I think it’s in either one of the letters to the Corinthians or Thessalonians) he writes that they are to keep the traditions they received by either letter or by word.
2 Thes 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

“Traditions”… See here that the unwritten traditions are no less to be received than their epistles.
 
I have a few friends who say they only follow the Bible, and they cannot comprehend Catholic Tradition. I can relate to this somewhat, being a convert from the Lutheran faith. My response to them is always “show me in the Bible where it says that it is all you should pay attention to!” Of course this is not good enough for them.
Ironically, they all three were raised Catholic as children. Any suggestions or Scripture to quote?:confused:
sounds like my aunt and uncle
 
Just a couple of quick thoughts.
  1. First of all tell them that this is good. It means they are already partially in harmony with the Catholic Church through which we have the Bible as we know it today.
  2. The Bible itself, in particular the NT, is derived from Catholic Tradition. Without the “Tradition” of the Early Church oral teachings, beliefs, and councils, we wouldn’t know which books should even be in the Bible.
  3. Ask them what is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth? Look it up (1 Tim 3:15 Then ask them what is meant by Church?
I put this together earlier and think if might give you some ideas on how to approach the “Bible” - “Church” thing. It’s kind of long so I had to split it into two posts.
When the NT was written there was One Christian Church, All other “churches” were either pagan or heretic. Christ established One Church on Earth and that Church is Catholic (Universal), Authoritative, and Visible.
The passages below seem to me to be a clear demonstration of Christ’s authority and how He passed it on to the Church.

Christ’s instruction of what to do about a brother who “sins” against us.:
Matthew 16: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Some of our Protestant brothers will want to tell us that the “Church” not an “institution” but the entire body of believers. If this were so then “Taking it to the Church” would be completed in step two where “Two or three witnesses” are called upon and no third step would be required. But Christ did establish a third step, telling His disciples to submit such obstinate disputes to “The Church’ for resolution and that they must accept The Church’s judgment as final.
So how does Christ define His Church?
Matthew 16: 18-19
18 "I also say to you that you are Kepha (Rock), and upon this Kepha I will build My church (Singular); and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”
Even a casual reading of this passage shows that Simon (Peter) is named Rock and upon this Rock Jesus institutes His Church with Authority to Bind and loose. Bind and Loose What? Bind and Loose “Whatever”. This is a Pretty Broad latitude.
But then this begs the question, of Jesus Authority to grant this power.
Matthew 28: 18-20
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Since this passage is given after Jesus Resurrection, it’s safe to say that Jesus Had “The Father’s” ear. In other words His Resurrection was certainly sufficient to Prove His divinity. So Now He has been given Authority in Heaven and Earth. He in turn gave authority to His Church, soon to be founded upon the Rock of Peter (Kepha). This Authority is to Bind, Loose, hold and teach the Truth of the Gospel.

Finally as to the issue of obeying the Church, I will again point to the Masters own words. When Jesus was teaching in Matthew about the Jewish Law and the interpretations thereof, He sternly reprimanded the Jewish leadership and He did so publicly, but what did He tell the Faithful Jewish “laymen”? He told them:
“all that they tell you, do and observe” because “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat”. (Matthew 23:2-3)
Jesus is saying that the teaching of the Jewish leaders remains binding and valid even though the leaders themselves are sinful men. Jesus thus establishes that, under the Old Covenant, those who “Sit on the seat of Moses” have the power to bind and loose. Under the New covenant, that Power resides in those who sit on the “Chair of Peter”, who was selected by Christ to Lead His Church.
Even if the Church were to teach something in error, it is still up to us to obey her as the rightful steward of Christ the King. The King will deal harshly with the offenders, and mercifully with His faithful servants. I shudder to think what He will do to those who not only reject but also vilify the Authority He established and has maintained for so long.

This Church is not simply a mystical – ethereal collection of believers, though certainly that is what makes up the Church, it is an institution of God given to us for Guidance. No different than the system set –up in the OT of Priests and Elders teaching and enforcing the Law from the temple.

(Cont)
 
Continued from Above
The great example in the Bible of the idea of Authority and taking it to the Church is the Council of Jerusalem in Acts. If the Church was a “body of believers” and not an “institution” then why did Paul feel the need to bring the issue of to the Apostles (Church Leadership). It was because Jesus told them to “Tell it to the Church”.
Once at the Council, things did not run all that smoothly, there was much debate until Peter Spoke and quieted it. Even once the decision had been made in Council it is logical to assume that there were varying degrees of “acceptance” among the individuals who debated so forcefully earlier. This would only be human nature. However All of them accepted the decision of the Council and submitted their own misgivings to the authority of the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
To me, these GOSPEL passages are powerful and conclusive evidence of the Authority of The Catholic Church since it is the Catholic Church that is the oldest and is traceable to the Apostles.

The Protestant Reformation was spawned on the idea that The Church that existed in 1500 was so completely corrupt that it had lost any legitimate claim to Being the One Holy and True Church.
It is built upon the Idea that Everything we need to know is contained in the Bible. (Sola Scriptura) From this is built all of the various theologies and denominations we know today.
Luther and others felt that they were justified in their “Reformation” due to the problems in the Church at the time and based their Reformed Church on The Bible Alone. Which leads me to this question for the panel.
Where in the Bible does it teach that it is all right to rebel against the Authority of the Church Which Christ established?
I see many instances where the Authority of the Church is affirmed, (Bind and Loose, Keys to Kingdom, hell will not prevail, pillar and foundation etc.) but none that say it is OK to dissent or deny or foment rebellion in the Church.
Christ Even told the Jews and His disciples to obey the Scribes and Pharisees while in the same breath calling those Scribes and Pharisees sinners. (Matthew 23:2-3)
Why would Jesus tell His Disciples to Obey their legitimate but sinful Church Leaders and then sanction the disobedience of Luther and others to their legitimate Church leaders?
Where is the Scriptural Foundation for this?
I hope some of this helps you.

Peace
James
 
Good quotes. You can ask them where in the bible does the bible claim it’s the sole authority of the Christian faith.
 
I have a few friends who say they only follow the Bible, and they cannot comprehend Catholic Tradition. I can relate to this somewhat, being a convert from the Lutheran faith. My response to them is always “show me in the Bible where it says that it is all you should pay attention to!” Of course this is not good enough for them.
Ironically, they all three were raised Catholic as children. Any suggestions or Scripture to quote?:confused:
Aside from what has already been stated, you might encounter the following two kinds of sola scripturists:
  1. Those who take verses like 2 Tim 3:16-17 which says Scripture is profitable for making a man complete and they will add the word “only” before Scripture.
  2. There are those people who will deny any verses about tradition you can show and repeat their original demands of showing them in Scripture “alone”
Both groups, whether in good faith or in bad faith, are stuck in a box out of which their minds are unable to escape. When someone hits their intellectual wall, it is unlikely any amount of verbal explanation on your part is going to help. It is then when I recommend the course of preaching the Gospel in your life rather than with your mouth. St. Francis said to preach the Gospel and use words when necessary. Father Corapi said that one is convincing when one behaves convinced. It is this kind of light shining from you that might convince your friends in ways that discussions with them could not.
 
Aside from what has already been stated, you might encounter the following two kinds of sola scripturists:
  1. Those who take verses like 2 Tim 3:16-17 which says Scripture is profitable for making a man complete and they will add the word “only” before Scripture.
  2. There are those people who will deny any verses about tradition you can show and repeat their original demands of showing them in Scripture “alone”
Both groups, whether in good faith or in bad faith, are stuck in a box out of which their minds are unable to escape. When someone hits their intellectual wall, it is unlikely any amount of verbal explanation on your part is going to help. It is then when I recommend the course of preaching the Gospel in your life rather than with your mouth. St. Francis said to preach the Gospel and use words when necessary. Father Corapi said that one is convincing when one behaves convinced. It is this kind of light shining from you that might convince your friends in ways that discussions with them could not.
Well Said.
Once you find yourself talking to someone who refuses to listen, it is time to Charitably withdraw from the conversation for the time being. Sometimes the points you make will take time to burrow in and sprout more questions on their part.
Be Patient and Live a Holy Life are great words to live by.

Peace
James
 
You could ask them how they even know what the bible says, since it is very easy to find other “I only follow the bible” believers who will believe different things than they do.
Are you suggesting that God is somehow unable to teach the Truth that is in His word to His children. Do you really believe that the heavenly Father is unable to teach His children the Truths He has put in His written word.

You only have to read the posts in this forum to see that there are many Roman Catholics who believe different things and disagree with each other.
I’d also focus on baptism and John 6. The bible is pretty clear that baptism is necessary for salvation, and that we must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ to have eternal life. So why don’t they follow those parts of the bible?
God clearly tells us that Jesus is our Saviour, salvation is in Christ Jesus alone.

“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

.
 
Simon the tanner was the first gentile convert of the Apostles, he and his whole household came to faith solely on the words of Peter. Peter was sent to them in a vision to share the gospel with them.
When the other members of the Church questioned him about doing this, Peter explained what had happened, and said ‘Who was I to argue with the Holy Spirit’ (paraphrase) and ‘I percieve that God has also granted life giving repentance to the gentiles.’
Here in scripture is demonstration of the Church authority, not based on scripture, but on the teaching of Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, acting with true authority which was not scripture.

You might also want to look at the 1st council of Jerusalem, also in Acts which shows the Apostles laying down religious guidelines for gentile believers not based on scriptures, but the authoritative deliberation of the Apostles.

Paul’s words may be hard to understand, as Peter said, but Lukes, not so much.
 
Are you suggesting that God is somehow unable to teach the Truth that is in His word to His children. Do you really believe that the heavenly Father is unable to teach His children the Truths He has put in His written word.
God could have done a lot of things in a variety of ways. But He did not choose to exhaust His revelation in writing only.
“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12
Receiving the sacraments IS to receive Christ.
 
You only have to read the posts in this forum to see that there are many Roman Catholics who believe different things and disagree with each other.
Do tell.
On which doctrine do you see this disagreement?

michel
 
I have a few friends who say they only follow the Bible, and they cannot comprehend Catholic Tradition. I can relate to this somewhat, being a convert from the Lutheran faith. My response to them is always “show me in the Bible where it says that it is all you should pay attention to!” Of course this is not good enough for them.
Ironically, they all three were raised Catholic as children. Any suggestions or Scripture to quote?:confused:
I would ask them …
What came first, the church or the bible?

Fact is, by the time the last new testament writings were complete at the end of the 1st century, the Catholic Church was on it’s 4th pope.
By the time the canon was set in the 4th century and we actually had a table of contents for the bible, the Catholic Church was on it’s 37th pope.

michel
 
Are you suggesting that God is somehow unable to teach the Truth that is in His word to His children. Do you really believe that the heavenly Father is unable to teach His children the Truths He has put in His written word.

You only have to read the posts in this forum to see that there are many Roman Catholics who believe different things and disagree with each other.

God clearly tells us that Jesus is our Saviour, salvation is in Christ Jesus alone.

“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

.
It is also easy to find where Jesus Gave us a Church with the Promise of His Protection and where Jesus Prayed that His Disciples would be united and of one mind.
It is also easy to find where the Bible teaches that “The Church” is the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”.
It is also Easy to find where Jesus tells us how to resolve issues among ourselves.

What is impossible to find is:
Where the Bible teaches Sola Scriptura,
Where the Bible tells us which books should be in the Bible,
A Justification for splitting from the Church He Founded.

Peace
James
 
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