Bible Origins

[james62]

The critical point, at least in the thread, is that the bible was compiled by group of men, guided by the Holy Spirit. To add in the Orthodox schisms really changes the question to which group of men, guided by the Holy Spirit, compiled the bible with the fact that it happened that way to be assumed.

I think that angle should be considered a separate thread. I having enough trouble as it is!

…although this is a great thing to bring up when discussing this with Protestants…leaving them the choice as whether to accept the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, or the (Eastern/Greek?) Orthodox Church. They won’t like either option, but i don’t see any others.

: )

 

[EnterCanaan]

Genesis 15:1
After these things **the word of the LORD **came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

Exodus 4:28
And Moses told Aaron all **the words of the LORD **who had sent him, and all the signs which he had commanded him.

Exodus 4:30
And Aaron spake all **the words which the LORD **had spoken unto Moses, and did the signs in the sight of the people.

2 Samuel 7:4
And it came to pass that night, that **the word of the LORD **came unto Nathan, saying,

2 Samuel 24:11
For when David was up in the morning, **the word of the LORD **came unto the prophet Gad, David’s seer, saying,

1 Kings 6:11
And **the word of the LORD **came to Solomon, saying,

1 Kings 21:17
And **the word of the LORD **came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

2 Chronicles 11:2
But **the word of the LORD **came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect: **the word of the LORD **is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Psalm 33:4
For **the word of the LORD **is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Psalm 33:6
By **the word of the LORD **were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Isaiah 38:4
Then came **the word of the LORD **to Isaiah, saying,

John 1:14 (King James Version)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word of God is totally identified with Jesus Christ, who is the Word made flesh. That is the only valid explanation. THE WORD OF GOD, WHICH IS THE BIBLE, IS TOTALLY IDENTIFIED WITH THE WORD MADE FLESH WHO IS JESUS CHRIST!!!

they are the SAME WORD OF GOD.

God is the Word.
The Word is Christ. *(John 1:14)
The Word was with God.
The Word was God.
The Word is He who was in the beginning with God.
The Word is He who was with God, who was, and is the Word.

[John 1:14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us…

[Romans 10:17] So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

The Word is given as parables.

Ps 78:2 ITHE WORD] will open myTHE WORD] mouth in a parable; ITHE WORD] will utter dark sayings of old.

Matt 13:34 All these things JesusTHE WORD] spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable HeTHE WORD] did not speak to them,

Matt 13:35 that is might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “ITHE WORD] will open MyTHE WORD] mouth in parables; ITHE WORD] will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

Mark 5:33 And with many such parables HeTHE WORD] spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it.

Mark 5:34 But without a parable HeTHE WORD] did not speak to them. And when they were alone, HeTHE WORD] explained all things to HisTHE WORD] disciples.

Luke 12:41 Then Peter said to HimTHE WORD], “LordCHRIST,WHO IS GOD,WHO IS THE WORD] do you speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”

Christ, who is God, who is the Holy spirit, who is the WORD, is the author of the bible from cover to cover. He is alpha and omega, He knows the beginning from the end, it is the same Enduring Word. And this teaches the word is spoken in parables. Peter askes, is this parable only to us, or to all people? The Lord responds that to those who are in the dark, that is the natural man, that is the unsaved man, that is the tares of the earth, all things are spoken in parables, And those whom are spiritual, those who are in the light, those who are saved, will have ears to discern the parable, and eyes to see the parable, and a heart given to understanding the parables.

Do you recognize the whole bible is one parable. God told us the natural man will not have eyes to see or ears to hear lest they should be converted and saved, thus, the bible, the word, is not written for them. For those who would recognize this teaching, As Peter did, then it is for those people to understand the parble, because their eyes are opened, and there is understanding, and they are converted and saved.

The word is spoken in parables, from cover to cover, this is called comparing scripture to scripture.

Compare Scripture to Scripture.

Is 28:10 For preceptTHE WORD] must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

Is 28:13 But the word of the Lord was to them, “PreceptTHE WORD] upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little there a little,” That they might go and fall backward, and be broken and snared and caught.

1 Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, **not in words which man’s wisdom teaches[AKA AN ORGANIZATION] **, but which the Holy SpiritTHE WORD] teaches, comparing spiritualTHE WORD] things with spiritualTHE WORD].

 

[CastingCrown]

Genesis 15:1
After these things **the word of the LORD **came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

…

The Word of God is totally identified with Jesus Christ, who is the Word made flesh. That is the only valid explanation. THE WORD OF GOD, WHICH IS THE BIBLE, IS TOTALLY IDENTIFIED WITH THE WORD MADE FLESH WHO IS JESUS CHRIST!!!

they are the SAME WORD OF GOD.

God is the Word.
The Word is Christ. *(John 1:14)

…

1 Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, **not in words which man’s wisdom teaches[AKA AN ORGANIZATION] **, but which the Holy SpiritTHE WORD] teaches, comparing spiritualTHE WORD] things with spiritualTHE WORD].

I’m fairly new to this thread, so I might have completely missed the point, but I’m rather confused by this post. I thought the question at hand was the origin of the Bible? Your main point, as far as I can see, is that God is the source of its revelation. This is clearly something Christians of all denominations can affirm. Have I missed your point?
Aside
One thing I will point out, however, is that your use of “word” is rather lax. In the passages you cite you seem to assume a strict equality between all the words “dabar”, “logos”, “rhema” and “pneuma”. Clearly there are some differences in meaning.

I only quickly scanned your references, but I actually couldn’t see any passage you quoted which used “graphe”, the written word (i.e. Sacred Scripture), all the others referring to either the spoken Word of God or members of the Godhead*

 

[Bengoshi]

You are using the term “Bible” as if there is only 1 Bible universally accepted.

Please let me know which Bible you are talking about? Jehovah Witness Bible, Mormon Bible, NAB Bible, NIV Bible? Once you answer this, then you will have to defend your “version” of the Bible.

God bless.

There is only one Bible, although many different translations. All Christian denominations and sects basically use accepted translations except the JWs, which use a heretical mistranslation to support their theology. Cults usually do that. The Mormons use the KJV, which is also an accepted translation. Of course, no translation is perfect. Only the words of God in the original (autographs) manuscripts are perfect. However, we all know that scholars have already declared the texts that we have today to be more than 99% pure and faithful to the originals. So this is really no issue at all.

 

[Bengoshi]

You REALLY need to pay attention to what you quoted. You need to heed this rule that was formally set down by St. Peter.

Please take note of the context. What St. Peter was saying is that not nothing written down as Scripture was the product of any person’s private interpretation of the events he recorded. He was not talking about the interpretation of Scripture itself, but of the events as they happened BEFORE they were written down as Scripture. The apostle Peter was speaking of the origins of Scripture, not its interpretation. Read the entire paragraph.

 

[jmcrae]

Follow-up question: Since Orthodox say Catholics split from them and not the reverse, they say they are the ones who gave us the Bible. I’m not sure how to answer that. Suggestions?

The Orthodox Churches were still united with the Catholic Church at that time, and certainly they contributed to the Councils that discerned the canon of the Scriptures. (the Bible)

It was Pope St. Innocent I who promulgated the canon of the Scriptures to the whole Church, however, since the Councils that discerned the canon were just local councils; they were not universal in nature.

 

[fermat]

Please take note of the context. What St. Peter was saying is that not nothing written down as Scripture was the product of any person’s private interpretation of the events he recorded. He was not talking about the interpretation of Scripture itself, but of the events as they happened BEFORE they were written down as Scripture. The apostle Peter was speaking of the origins of Scripture, not its interpretation. Read the entire paragraph.

Where in the bible does Peter say that he is talking about the origins and not the interpretation?

 

[Bengoshi]

Christ, who is God, who is the Holy spirit, who is the WORD, is the author of the bible from cover to cover.

Whoa! Hold on there! May I ask what your doctrine of the Trinity is? I may have misunderstood your post but I would just like to point out that Jesus is NOT the Holy Spirit. The persons of the Trinity are distinct from one another. It can be summed up by these three statements:

“God is three persons.
Each person is fully God.
There is one God.”

It is illogical, yes, but that is the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, which all Christians, except the cults, deny. I just want all of us to be clear on this first before we proceed.

Back to the topic. I disagree that the WHOLE Bible is a parable. It was written using various literary devices. Only parts of it are parables. Others are historical, others are poetic, others are songs. So it is really inaccurate to say that the whole Bible is a parable.

 

[juliamajor]

Yes, the bible came from the catholic church. It is well known fact that Peter was a catholic and went to church and it is him that is the head of the church, so from the beginning they built churches and told people about the pope (Peter was the first pope).

Luke and John and all the other apostles were catholics and they wrote the rest of the bible and they met together (although they hadn’t moved to Rome yet). So the bible was written by our holy mother the church and although Jesus started out a Jew he finished his life as a catholic and all his apostles were catholic.

The people that say otherwise just don’t know their history.

I do know my history Jesus was born a Jew and died as a Jew.Peter was a Messianic Jew ,name catholic came a little bit later.Church buildings didn’t come into play until several centuries later-house churches were the norm.Luke andJohn were Christians.Luke was not an apostle. Apostles including Paul met at the council of Jerusalem to decide if pagans who wanted to be Christians had to become Jews first.Paul won that one.Apostles were Messianic Jews.
People of the church wrote NT scripture.Church compiled it and canonized it -keeping it safe.

 

[Bengoshi]

Where in the bible does Peter say that he is talking about the origins and not the interpretation?

Read until verses 20-21, which says:

“Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”

No biblical prophecy was ever produced merely because a man wanted to prophesy (by the will of man). The prophecy in Scripture was given only by God through men, who “spoke” as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was the active, revelatory agent working within the OT prophets and through their lives and circumstances as they prophesied. This is a key verse for the doctrine of Scripture, indicating that Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit, but at the same time men spoke God’s words, using their own personalities, knowledge, background, vocabulary, and style. “They were carried along” implies that the inspiration of Scripture was invisibly directed by the Holy Spirit, though without overriding the personalities of the human authors. Thus Scripture is fully the Word of God, even though it is recorded in the words of human beings. The exact way in which this was accomplished remains a divine mystery. What is true of OT prophecy is true of “all Scripture"

 

[CastingCrown]

Peter was a Messianic Jew ,name catholic came a little bit later…Apostles were Messianic Jews. People of the church wrote NT scripture.Church compiled it and canonized it -keeping it safe.

Just a few clarifications:

• The name “Catholic Church” appeared very quickly. The first recorded use is seen in 107 AD (shortly after the death of John) and the manner in which it was used suggests that the term was in common use by then.
• Although the term “catholic” isn’t used in the Bible, it isn’t hard to see from Paul’s writings that he saw the church as both universal and whole (the meanings of the word “catholic”).
• The Apostles were Messianic Jews in the sense that they were of Jewish descent who believed that the Messiah had come. Equating them with the Messianic Jew movement of today is another matter.

 

[mo3]

There is only one Bible, although many different translations.

Are you saying the NAB Bible is the only Bible? Remember it has “all the inspired” text we are aware of which means there are 73 books in the complete Bible.

All Christian denominations and sects basically use accepted translations except the JWs, which use a heretical mistranslation to support their theology.

In a sense, you may be correct that “all Christian denominations” use accepted translations. But in this sense, it is important to recognize that the Catholic Church is not a “denomination.” It is the “Church.”

However, it would not be true to say “all Christians” use accepted translations. Catholics would not accept the translations. There are 1 billion Catholics in the world which is more than all the other Christians put together. Most Christians are Catholic.

The Mormons use the KJV, which is also an accepted translation.

Most Christians are Catholic and therefore should not accept the KJV.

However, we all know that scholars have already declared the texts that we have today to be more than 99% pure and faithful to the originals. So this is really no issue at all.

What text are you talking about? Translated text of the NIV? Most Christian (since most Christians are Catholic) should disagree.

You are making broad sweeping statements that are not accurate.

God bless.

 

[mo3]

Please respond tomy direct questions. You seem to be avoiding answering question and just quoting verses.

Christ, who is God, who is the Holy spirit, who is the WORD, is the author of the bible from cover to cover.

This is false. Christ did not author the Bible from “cover to cover.” He did not author the Table of Contents which lists the books of the Bible. Human beings authored the Table of Contents (which is inside between “cover to cover”)

The word is spoken in parables, from cover to cover, this is called comparing scripture to scripture.

This is false. Please quote me the “chapter and verse” which says “cover to cover.”

God bless.

 

[inkaneer]

I do know my history Jesus was born a Jew and died as a Jew.Peter was a Messianic Jew ,name catholic came a little bit later.Church buildings didn’t come into play until several centuries later-house churches were the norm.Luke andJohn were Christians.Luke was not an apostle. Apostles including Paul met at the council of Jerusalem to decide if pagans who wanted to be Christians had to become Jews first.Paul won that one.Apostles were Messianic Jews.
People of the church wrote NT scripture.Church compiled it and canonized it -keeping it safe.

Well, if you know your history then you know that the term ‘Catholic Church’ came from scripture. Also, first century church buildings have been unearthed in the Middle East. It wasn’t smart to gather in one building during the persecutions so early churches in Rome were non-existant but christians met in the catacombs and celebrated the Divine Liturgy there. Later when being a christian was legal the christians would build churches many times over the tombs of Apostles and martyrs such as St. Paul and St. Peter.

 

[jmcrae]

I do know my history Jesus was born a Jew and died as a Jew.Peter was a Messianic Jew ,name catholic came a little bit later.Church buildings didn’t come into play until several centuries later-house churches were the norm.

House churches were very organized - people were not sitting around on couches in the living room praying extemporaneously - they were kneeling, saying Mass, and conducting themselves in a very formal and orderly manner, facing East, with the Bishops first, then the priests, then the men, then the women, and then the children.

Apostles including Paul met at the council of Jerusalem to decide if pagans who wanted to be Christians had to become Jews first.Paul won that one.Apostles were Messianic Jews.

There was no such thing as a “Messianic Jew” before 1961. Prior to that, beginning in 1866, there was something called the “Hebrew-Christian Alliance” in Great Britain, which found its way to North America in 1915. In 1961, they began to combine the traditions of Judaism with the traditions of Christianity, to come up with the Messianic Jewish religion. What they came up with in 1961 (a hybrid of Jewish and Christian traditions) is precisely what the Apostles forbade at the Council of Jerusalem, in Acts 15.

The Apostles were not “Messianic Jews” - they were Christians.

People of the church wrote NT scripture.Church compiled it and canonized it -keeping it safe.

Right - that happened in the late 300s AD.

 

[inkaneer]

Please take note of the context. What St. Peter was saying is that not nothing written down as Scripture was the product of any person’s private interpretation of the events he recorded. He was not talking about the interpretation of Scripture itself, but of the events as they happened BEFORE they were written down as Scripture. The apostle Peter was speaking of the origins of Scripture, not its interpretation. Read the entire paragraph.

I will have to disagree with you. Your interpretation of 2 Peter 1 is dictated by your acceptance of the sola scriptura doctrine and its necessary corollary of private interpretation of the scriptures. But 2 Peter 1:20-21 says

“20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

Not everyone in “old time”, referring to the Old Testament, were prophets who could explain the will of God to the people. Only certain people were selected by God to tell the people what God willed. So too in the New Testament not everyone is capable of interpreting scripture. Paul says this also in 1 Corinthians 12 when he speaks of the different gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Now if you [that is both a singular as well as a plural ‘you’ meaning ‘you’ individually and ‘you’ meaning all protestants] want to insist on private interpretation then ‘you’ have to explain the diversity of doctrines in protestantism all based upon the respective interpretation of scripture. A good example is Baptism. Depending on which protestant denomination’s doctrines ‘you’ adhere to, Baptism is either for adults only or for infants too. It is either a scrament or an ordinance. It is either necessary or not necessary. It either saves or it doesn’t save. And every denomination will give you their scriptural verse basis for believing their interpretation. So who is correct and how do you know it is correct? What you have is essentially a cafeteria christianity where you can choose what you want to believe. That does not fit in very well with Jesus’ prayer that His followers be one as He and the Father were one [John 17:11]. Rather, 2 Peter 1:20 shows plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. For the promise of the Spirit of Truth in John 16:13 was not made to all of Jesus’ followers. It was made only to the then eleven Apostles. Jesus had a lot more followers than just eleven men. There were over 120 in the upper room alone [Acts 1:15]. But only a select few received the authority to speak on behalf of God. That authority remained with the church in the form of the office of bishop. Peter says as much in Acts 1:20.

“For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” [Acts 1:20] KJV

There Peter is quoting two psalms Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8. The word ‘bishoprick’ as used in Acts 1:20 by the KJV is translated as ‘office’ in Psalm 109:8. So the Apostles occupied the office of bishop and could consecrate other bishops as they did with Matthias. The Spirit of Truth went with the office and not with the man. So the office that Judas vacated had authority and that authority did not die with him but was continued on in the office occupied by Matthias. This then is the legacy of sola scriptura, that when you deny the authority of the church you open up the floodgates to different interpretations of scripture with each supported by an interpretation of scripture and no one has the authority to say which are right and which are wrong. That is why you have to interpret 2 Peter 1:20 the way you do. You have to maintain the charade of sola scriptura.

 

[EnterCanaan]

Please respond tomy direct questions. You seem to be avoiding answering question and just quoting verses.

This is false. Christ did not author the Bible from “cover to cover.” He did not author the Table of Contents which lists the books of the Bible. Human beings authored the Table of Contents (which is inside between “cover to cover”)

This is false. Please quote me the “chapter and verse” which says “cover to cover.”

God bless.

Well not to be uncharitable, but your questions are leading questions. We all know God did not author the table of contents, or an index, or break the text of His word into chapters with headings and verses. that is a human device to make the text understandable… and??? so what are you trying to achieve.

Jesus Christ is God, God is Jesus Christ, God is the Word, God is the Word made flesh, God is the Holy Spirit, His name is Councelor, Faithful, Love, Wisdom, Everlasting, Eternal, The Lamb.

All of these are identified with each other.

And so who is the author of the bible, God is the author of the bible. Jesus Christ is the fullness of the Godhead bodily, they are all the same, Thus, it is reasonable to assume that the author of the bible is our LORD, who is Jesus Christ, who is God, who is the Holy Spirit.

It seems you are stuck on an arbitrary point. You know perfectly well i can’t find a verse saying cover to cover, but it is assumed to be the case as God is the author.

Actually, i can take that back,

[2 Peter 1:20] Knowing this first, that **no prophecy of the scripture **is of any private interpretation. [21] For **the prophecy came not **in the old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The bible is scripture from cover to cover, and no scripture came by the will of any man, but God spoke, and the man was moved to write by the Holy Ghost.

Every page in the bible is straight from the mouth of God, there isn’t one page in the bible that comes from the mind of a man, no prophecy, no historical account, no parable, no vision, no dream, no speaking in tongues, nothing written in the bible, from cover to cover, is from the mind of any human being.

To further emphasis this point, we have the account in Jer 36, teaching us how exactly the words were spoken to a prophet, then the prophet wrote the words spoken to him by God and put then on a roll of a book.

the book in question would be the bible. Yes bible is not a word in the bible, but that is already understood. The name we give to the scripture is bible.

Jeremiah 36 (King James Version)
Jeremiah 36
1And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

**2Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee **against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.

4Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.

This example is given us, by God, so we can know with out a doubt how the bible was created, how scripture and revelation was given, and how it came to be recorded down.

any more questions?

 

[mo3]

Apostles including Paul met at the council of Jerusalem to decide if pagans who wanted to be Christians had to become Jews first. Paul won that one.

This is not accurate. Paul did not settle this issue. Paul went to Jeruselem because he could not settle it on his own. The apostles and presbyters (priests) met to discuss the matter. “Peter” got up and settled the issue as you can see below. Scripture shows us “Peter” had the authority and the apostles and presbyters listened and followed.

ACTS 15: 7-9 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter.
7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.

 

[james62]

EnterCanaan, just curious…in your view, who are what was the ultimate earthly authority for “the church” in the year 30AD? how about 40AD? 50? 100? 350? 400?

Before Paul wrote any of his letters (and WELL before they were added to scripture), how did any of the churches he was writing to know what to believe or how to “do” church?

 

[jmcrae]

Well not to be uncharitable, but your questions are leading questions. We all know God did not author the table of contents, or an index,

Do you know who did?

Who decided which books to include in the Bible, and when he had done so, wrote up its “table of contents” (aka, the canon of the Scriptures)?

Jesus Christ is God, God is Jesus Christ, God is the Word, God is the Word made flesh, God is the Holy Spirit, His name is Councelor, Faithful, Love, Wisdom, Everlasting, Eternal, The Lamb.

Right - and has been so, even before the first word of Scripture was penned.

[2 Peter 1:20] Knowing this first, that **no prophecy of the scripture **is of any private interpretation. [21] For **the prophecy came not **in the old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

He doesn’t give a list of what is to be considered Scripture, though, does he?

The bible is scripture from cover to cover, and no scripture came by the will of any man, but God spoke, and the man was moved to write by the Holy Ghost.

This again is true, but it took human beings to discover this fact, and to make the list of all the books that are to be included in the Bible. Do you know who these human beings were, when they lived, and how they came to make this discovery?

The Bible did not simply appear under a rock one day, nor did it fall from the sky. Learned men had to find the individual books, among literally thousands of books, and pick out all of the right ones, while not including any of the wrong ones.