Bible question for Protestants

  • Thread starter Thread starter aball1035
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
=QNDNNDQDCE;11630246]According to my reading of Trent, the Latin Church simply affirmed the inspiration of her own canon. The Council of Trent was a Western council contra Protestantism so the Eastern canons of Scripture were not of concern, especially when the Latin Church was at the time in communion with man Churches with broader canons.
No argument, though I wonder how other Catholics will respond to a description of Trent as a Western council, only confirming the canon of the Latin Church.
You ask how this is not hypocritical.
I wouldn’t use the term hypocritical. 😉
Well, it is not really a comparable comparison. Regardless of the inspiration of other books, the Tridentine canon has been sufficient for the Latin Church and it is our tradition. For the canonicity of the books within the canon, we can trust the infallible judgment of the Church. At the same time, we can believe that there are inspired writings outside the canon, but we are fine with what we have. We would probably be just as fine with the Protestant canon, but that is not the canon of the Church.
Ok, but again, that’s not the message I get about it from others. I actually think this sounds somewhat like the Lutheran approach, though we would include the DC’s.
Protestants, on the other hand, generally teach that the deuterocanonical Catholic books are not inspired, and “edifying” at best.
Within our confessions, there is no such statement from a Lutheran POV. I think the view of the Reformers and since then many Lutherans is higher than this (American Lutherans perhaps the exception).
Another reason it is different is because the Catholic Church does not operate according to the Protestant principles of “sola scriptura” and “sola fide.” What sola scriptura means in practice is that nothing can be believed if it is not clearly demonstrated from Scripture, since if another person does not see clearly that Scripture affirms what you teach, they will teach contrary to you.
No. That’s not how sola scriptura works, at least for Lutherans. Certainly things can be believed that are not extant in scripture. But doctrine, that which binds the conscience of the believer, is normed by scripture. For example, as a Lutheran I am bound to the doctrine of the Theotokos, because it is explicit in scripture. OTOH, I am perfectly free as a Lutheran to accept the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, but I am not bound to the belief by doctrine because it is not clear in scripture.
This is why not all Protestants became Lutheran.
Actually, they didn’t become Lutheran for many of the same reasons they didn’t remain Catholic. Sacraments, the real presence, etc.
For this reason, it would be helpful to have as many books as were available. Although it is perhaps not sufficiently clear in other books, 2 Maccabees very explicitly teaches that praying for the dead is good, a practice traditionally rejected by Protestants. If praying for the dead is a good practice, then Protestants have really dropped the ball for their dead, which could have been averted if they had the larger canon.
And oddly enough, Lutherans do not reject prayer for the dead.
The doctrine of “sola fide” ends up coloring one’s interpretation of Scripture in this way. The problem with the mantra “sola fide” is that it produces a distorted view of Christian life. “We don’t have to do X,” “We shouldn’t do X,” or “It is an abomination to do X” are all justified on the basis that they contradict “faith alone.” This mindset can put faith into opposition to things which are not at all contrary to faith.
Goodness! Not in any teaching that I was exposed to.
Another thing about “sola fide” is that it creates a distorted hierarchy of Scripture. This is especially true for Lutherans. Protestants, holding sola fide as their chief doctrine, ascribe primary importance to those books which they think most clearly teach it (such as Romans) and less importance to other books. For example, Catholics see James saying that we are not justified by faith alone, and while there may be a true interpretation of sola fide, they are puzzled why Protestants insist dogmatically on a formula which is not taught explicitly and explicitly rejected in Scripture (Protestant pro-sola fide interpretations of James notwithstanding). In your case, you have even said before that James, along with the other “Antilegomena” is of less authority than Paul’s letters. While Catholic interpretation ascribes more importance to certain books (the Gospels or the NT epistles) than others (Esther), I would argue that it does not have quite as imbalanced a view of Scripture.
This isn’t exactly true, considering that Hebrews also stands in the Antilegomena. It isn’t what James or Hebrews or Revelation teaches, but the historic nature of the disputes that surround them. James authorship has historically been disputed.
From a Reformation viewpoint, the Reformers saw the Church teaching a works righteousness doctrine. Even if that was a teaching in error, and not reflective of the Catholic Church’s true doctrine, the response of the reformers was based on what they saw, what we see, in St. Paul who, regularly tells us we are justified by faith, and not by works.

continued
 
No argument, though I wonder how other Catholics will respond to a description of Trent as a Western council, only confirming the canon of the Latin Church.
The canon of Trent was not a “Western Council”. No such thing exists. It was an Ecumenical Council. The canon of inspired Scripture promulgated by it is that of the entire Catholic Church, both East and West.
 
I am not exactly sure what Cajetan’s view of the canon was. What I am suggesting is that his view might be more complicated than the wide Protestant idea of canon. It’s not clear to me from the passage usually quoted. But let’s suppose for now that Cajetan did not believe the deuterocanonical books were inspired. The fundamental difference with Cajetan was that he was still loyal to the Church, and would have accepted correction.
OK.
Luther wanted to always have things his way, believing that he was subject to no other authority than Scripture (or his reading of it anyway).
This is interesting, because the other argument against Luther by some on this issue is that he included the Antilegomena and the DC’s at the insistence or convincing of others.
The two seem rather inconsistent. Luther wants to exclude the DC’s, but includes them. Luther wants to exclude James, but includes it, says he praises it, and often preaches from it through his life.
Secondly, Luther, as I recall, said some rather impious things about the Epistle of James, such as that it obscured the Gospel and that it didn’t make any sense. As far as I know, Cajetan limited his criticism to scholarly criticism.
Begging Eric’s forgiveness, here is the entire (excluding Jude) 1522 preface.

Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude (1522)

Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, 1 I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle; and my reasons follow.

In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works. It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac; though in Romans 4 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15. Now although this epistle might be helped and an interpretation 2 devised for this justification by works, it cannot be defended in its application to works of Moses’ statement in Genesis 15. For Moses is speaking here only of Abraham’s faith, and not of his works, as St. Paul demonstrates in Romans 4. This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.

In the second place its purpose is to teach Christians, but in all this long teaching it does not once mention the Passion, the resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ. He names Christ several times; however he teaches nothing about him, but only speaks of general faith in God. Now it is the office of a true apostle to preach of the Passion and resurrection and office of Christ, and to lay the foundation for faith in him, as Christ himself says in John 15, “You shall bear witness to me.” All the genuine sacred books agree in this, that all of them preach and inculcate [treiben] Christ. And that is the true test by which to judge all books, when we see whether or not they inculcate Christ. For all the Scriptures show us Christ, Romans 3; and St. Paul will know nothing but Christ, I Corinthians 2. Whatever does not teach Christ is not apostolic, even though St. Peter or St. Paul does the teaching. Again, whatever preaches Christ would be apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate, and Herod were doing it.

But this James does nothing more than drive to the law and to its works. Besides, he throws things together so chaotically that it seems to me he must have been some good, pious man, who took a few sayings from the disciples of the apostles and thus tossed them off on paper. Or it may perhaps have been written by someone on the basis of his preaching. He calls the law a “law of liberty,” though Paul calls it a law of slavery, of wrath, of death, and of sin. 3

Moreover he cites the sayings of St. Peter: “Love covers a multitude of sins,” and again, “Humble yourselves under the hand of God;” also the saying of St. Paul in Galatians 5, “The Spirit lusteth against envy.” And yet, in point of time, St. James was put to death by Herod in Jerusalem, before St. Peter. 4 So it seems that this author came long after St. Peter and St. Paul.

In a word, he wanted to guard against those who relied on faith without works, but was unequal to the task in spirit, thought, and words. He mangles the Scriptures and thereby opposes Paul and all Scripture. 5 He tries to accomplish by harping on the law what the apostles accomplish by stimulating people to love. Therefore, I will not have him in my Bible to be numbered among the true chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him. One man is no man in worldly things; how, then, should this single man alone avail against Paul and all the rest of Scripture? 6

Now, I think Luther is flat wrong in paragraph 2, but I don’t think there is anything impious, and certainly his view, right or wrong, is theological in nature, and influenced by the time.

Jon
 
The canon of Trent was not a “Western Council”. No such thing exists. It was an Ecumenical Council. The canon of inspired Scripture promulgated by it is that of the entire Catholic Church, both East and West.
That’s what I thought you’d say, though again and respectfully, I disagree that it was ecumenical.

Jon
 
That’s what I thought you’d say, though again and respectfully, I disagree that it was ecumenical.

Jon
Ah, sorry. I meant that Trent is 100% ecumenical from the Catholic perspective.

I’m curious: what distinguishes the first seven Councils from the later ones, in the Lutheran POV? I asked this before, but you must have missed it.
 
Ah, sorry. I meant that Trent is 100% ecumenical from the Catholic perspective.

I’m curious: what distinguishes the first seven Councils from the later ones, in the Lutheran POV? I asked this before, but you must have missed it.
Sorry, I must have. The nature of what a council was in the early Church, a view not too unlike that of the EO and why they consider only 7 to be true ecumenical councils.

Jon
 
Sorry, I must have. The nature of what a council was in the early Church, a view not too unlike that of the EO and why they consider only 7 to be true ecumenical councils.
Ah, I see. The more I learn about Lutheranism and Orthodoxy, the more similar they appear. 🙂
 
Ah, I see. The more I learn about Lutheranism and Orthodoxy, the more similar they appear. 🙂
Well, they would deny that, more than likely, just like they deny that you are similar to them, as some Catholics say. Based on what I read here, they appear to think we are much more like each other, than either of us are like them. Not sure which one of us should be bothered by that more, or if neither of us should, or… 😃
OTOH, there is much in the way that Orthodoxy presents things that pique my interest, their expression of the real presence, for example.

Jon
 
Well, they would deny that, more than likely, just like they deny that you are similar to them, as some Catholics say. Based on what I read here, they appear to think we are much more like each other, than either of us are like them. Not sure which one of us should be bothered by that more, or if neither of us should, or… 😃
OTOH, there is much in the way that Orthodoxy presents things that pique my interest, their expression of the real presence, for example.

Jon
Y’know, I’ve had trouble trying to pin down what they think of the Eucharist. Some sources say transubstantiation, others say it’s similar to the Lutheran view… I’m somewhat confused.
 
Y’know, I’ve had trouble trying to pin down what they think of the Eucharist. Some sources say transubstantiation, others say it’s similar to the Lutheran view… I’m somewhat confused.
If our expressions and understandings of the Eucharist become such that we are not sure how we differ from each other, is that a good thing, I wonder?:hmmm:

Jon
 
If our expressions and understandings of the Eucharist become such that we are not sure how we differ from each other, is that a good thing, I wonder?:hmmm:

Jon
I don’t think so. But it’s a question that deserves thought.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top