Bible question for Protestants

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Then what was the doctrine, specific to Judith, that Luther claims keeps it from the canon, or even you claim made Luther keep it from the canon? And that doctrine specific to Wisdom of of Solomon?
I haven’t found anything in either that contradicts Lutheran doctrine. OTOH, maybe there was something that contradicted what Luther believed that doesn’t happen to be Lutheran doctrine.

Jon
You don’t seem to understand. It’s really simple.
Luther had doctrinal problams with books like Maccabees.
He discovered that the Palestenian canon (arrived at, incidently, after the “problem” of Christianity arose) eliminated Maccabees, along with other books, and used that canon as an excuse to exclude Maccabees. The others were collateral damage.

It’s nice that you admit that Judith and Wisdom are orthodox. Now, why would YOU propose they are not theopneustos?
 
How do you know what books should be in the Bible? The Catholic would say “because the Catholic Church has ruled on it”, but since the Church has no real authority on the matter, what would you say?
Man this is a hot topic right now.
 
What Judith teaches is preparation for blessings and the celebration of blessings and also it was written to inspire the Jewish people to continued trust in God, their historic Savior. It was written to make a moral point Judith a name which means Jewish woman and so represents Israel in her faith and courage in times of great crisis. having saved them from the Egyptians and from other dire circumstances God will not fail to save His people. But the people themselves must be as faithful and trusting as Judith.
The Book of the Wisdom of Solomon was written to offer edification to a Jewish community during times of oppression and political suffering, and to reassure faithful members of that community that God indeed rewards those who remain steadfast in the faith. What this tells me is that the Catholic Church saw that God is the main author using His Word in the words of men, so thereby is inspired.
 
I can’t think of a book that came out of the 1st century that I would add outside of the books we have…

Perhaps the Didache? But even then we’re not sure that it was written in the first century. The Gospel of Thomas logically has no place.

Assuming you’re not a Catholic, which book would you add to the Canon from the 1st century?
So for instance how do we know if the book of Hebrews belongs in the bible we don’t know the author and it defiantly stands out as different from the rest in some regards
 
Yes, but that is a matter of scholarly (or unscholarly) opinion. How is that a sure ground on which to stake our faith?
Sorry, this question is from a long way back so I missed it at the time. I believe the correct answer would be I can’t use scholars (and certainly not modern revisionist ones) with any real confidence, otherwise I would be all over the place and eventually we would have no Bible. I can however accept the claims of the Catholic Church with confidence.

Well at least I hope that is the correct answer.

There is only one doctrine that is not in the Bible itself, and that is the Table of Contents (I borrowed that from a better man).
 
Ok. Explain this to me. My understanding, from what Catholics say, is that books are either inspired or they are not, and, how can one know for sure if one’s canon is true. ISTM that to say the Cc at Trent has not dogmatically ruled against the additional EO books puts Catholics in the same position. If one doesn’t know if 3 Macc, for example, is inspired… It is either is, or it isn’t, and if the CC has determined a 73 book canon since Carthage and Hippo, why is it the CC doesn’t know about 3 Macc?
According to my reading of Trent, the Latin Church simply affirmed the inspiration of her own canon. The Council of Trent was a Western council contra Protestantism so the Eastern canons of Scripture were not of concern, especially when the Latin Church was at the time in communion with man Churches with broader canons. You ask how this is not hypocritical. Well, it is not really a comparable comparison. Regardless of the inspiration of other books, the Tridentine canon has been sufficient for the Latin Church and it is our tradition. For the canonicity of the books within the canon, we can trust the infallible judgment of the Church. At the same time, we can believe that there are inspired writings outside the canon, but we are fine with what we have. We would probably be just as fine with the Protestant canon, but that is not the canon of the Church. Protestants, on the other hand, generally teach that the deuterocanonical Catholic books are not inspired, and “edifying” at best.

Another reason it is different is because the Catholic Church does not operate according to the Protestant principles of “sola scriptura” and “sola fide.” What sola scriptura means in practice is that nothing can be believed if it is not clearly demonstrated from Scripture, since if another person does not see clearly that Scripture affirms what you teach, they will teach contrary to you. This is why not all Protestants became Lutheran. For this reason, it would be helpful to have as many books as were available. Although it is perhaps not sufficiently clear in other books, 2 Maccabees very explicitly teaches that praying for the dead is good, a practice traditionally rejected by Protestants. If praying for the dead is a good practice, then Protestants have really dropped the ball for their dead, which could have been averted if they had the larger canon.

The doctrine of “sola fide” ends up coloring one’s interpretation of Scripture in this way. The problem with the mantra “sola fide” is that it produces a distorted view of Christian life. “We don’t have to do X,” “We shouldn’t do X,” or “It is an abomination to do X” are all justified on the basis that they contradict “faith alone.” This mindset can put faith into opposition to things which are not at all contrary to faith. Another thing about “sola fide” is that it creates a distorted hierarchy of Scripture. This is especially true for Lutherans. Protestants, holding sola fide as their chief doctrine, ascribe primary importance to those books which they think most clearly teach it (such as Romans) and less importance to other books. For example, Catholics see James saying that we are not justified by faith alone, and while there may be a true interpretation of sola fide, they are puzzled why Protestants insist dogmatically on a formula which is not taught explicitly and explicitly rejected in Scripture (Protestant pro-sola fide interpretations of James notwithstanding). In your case, you have even said before that James, along with the other “Antilegomena” is of less authority than Paul’s letters. While Catholic interpretation ascribes more importance to certain books (the Gospels or the NT epistles) than others (Esther), I would argue that it does not have quite as imbalanced a view of Scripture.
Then why not the same level of “charitable reading” to Luther? Luther’s view of the DC’s isn’t far different than Cajetan’s. Luther was no longer under the authority of Rome when he and his colleagues translated, and yet he/they translated and included them the DC’s anyway, in clear deference to the history of the western Church.
I am not exactly sure what Cajetan’s view of the canon was. What I am suggesting is that his view might be more complicated than the wide Protestant idea of canon. It’s not clear to me from the passage usually quoted. But let’s suppose for now that Cajetan did not believe the deuterocanonical books were inspired. The fundamental difference with Cajetan was that he was still loyal to the Church, and would have accepted correction. Luther wanted to always have things his way, believing that he was subject to no other authority than Scripture (or his reading of it anyway). Secondly, Luther, as I recall, said some rather impious things about the Epistle of James, such as that it obscured the Gospel and that it didn’t make any sense. As far as I know, Cajetan limited his criticism to scholarly criticism.
 
Not only was he not excommunicated from the Church because of his view of the canon, it probably isn’t a driving issue of Church division between Catholics and Lutherans. I am currently reading the DC’s, published by the LCMS!
I’d be interested to know what you think the more fundamental problems are.
The usual suspects. Chief of all, he rejected the authority of the Church, which permitted all his other errors to take root. I think Luther’s “sola fide” was a root issue as well. It comes across as almost some kind of neurosis. You see this in the way in which Lutherans set apart their teaching from the supposed Catholic teaching, which was often a distortion. Without fail, the difference is that the Lutheran practice is not an attempt to “merit” salvation, contra Catholicism, even in cases when the Lutherans are teaching the same things! Here’s an example. I recently watched a black-and-white Lutheran-made movie about the career of Martin Luther (perhaps you know which one I’m referring to). In the beginning of the movie, Luther rejects a Catholic’s explanation that sacred images are pious helps to the faithful. Toward the end of the movie, he condemns his iconoclastic followers for destroying images in the Churches because they are pious helps to the faithful. Perhaps this is intended to mark a maturation in Luther’s views, or there is intended to be some distinction without a difference, but it appears wildly inconsistent. Anyway, those are a couple things from one Catholic’s personal thoughts. Take that for what it’s worth!
Sorry, Q, but Trent closed the canon. If Trent had never taken place, and we only had Ferrara-Florence, then the possibility of other books being inspired would still be there. But what Trent did was take our 73-book canon and say, “nothing more, nothing less.”
I don’t think this is correct. This is what Trent wrote about the canon.

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct04.html

This seems to agree with what I have said. The decree says, “But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.” The anathematization is only against those who reject the canonicity of our books, not against the Eastern Churches which hold additional ones. Consider also that canon has never been a point of contention between Catholics and Orthodox, nor has it been an issue with the Easter Churches in communion with Rome, which also use larger canons.
 
I don’t think this is correct. This is what Trent wrote about the canon.

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct04.html
Do you really think that I hadn’t read Trent’s decree before I posted that statement?
Regarding the Orthodox “extra” books, the NCE clearly says that “the Council of Trent definitively removed [them] from the canon” (New Catholic Encyclopedia (New York: McGraw Hill, 1967), Volume II, Bible, III, pp.396-397).
Consider also that canon has never been a point of contention between Catholics and Orthodox,
It has, though. There are several apologetics articles against the Orthodox canon, like this one by Mark Bonocore:
catholicbridge.com/catholic/orthodox/did_nicea_II_confirm_the_canon_of_Carthage.php

I could probably dig up more if you would like.
nor has it been an issue with the Easter Churches in communion with Rome, which also use larger canons.
But they only do the bold liturgically.
 
I didn’t suppose that you hadn’t read what Trent said. All I said was that it did not appear that Trent had anywhere closed the canon. Secondly, as I noted earlier, there is a difference between canon and inspiration. The (Old) Catholic Encyclopedia notes this in its commentary on Florence.

The “Decretum pro Jacobitis” contains a complete list of the books received by the Church as inspired, but omits, perhaps advisedly, the terms canon and canonical. The Council of Florence therefore taught the inspiration of all the Scriptures, but did not formally pass on their canonicity.
www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm

I don’t happen to have a copy of the NCE, so I can’t know for sure what that statement is saying. One thing to consider is that there have been multiple canons of Scripture co-existing for the majority of the Church’s history, so the fact that certain books are not part of the Tridentine canon does not mean they cannot be included in the canon of the Melkite Church, for instance. Another thing is, as noted above, canonicity is not identical to inspiration. Finally, the NCE is not infallible so it could simply be mistaken on this point.

When has the canon of Scripture been a major point of contention between Catholic and Orthodox, apart from Twenty-First Century Catholic lay-apologists? It seems historically, the issue is somewhere below bearded clergy as a dividing issue between Catholics and Orthodox.
 
Secondly, as I noted earlier, there is a difference between canon and inspiration.
Yes, but they are usually used synonymously today, unless otherwise specified.
The (Old) Catholic Encyclopedia notes this in its commentary on Florence.
The “Decretum pro Jacobitis” contains a complete list of the books received by the Church as inspired, but omits, perhaps advisedly, the terms canon and canonical. The Council of Florence therefore taught the inspiration of all the Scriptures, but did not formally pass on their canonicity.
www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm
I don’t see how this is relevant.
One thing to consider is that there have been multiple canons of Scripture co-existing for the majority of the Church’s history
Huh? As I’ve pointed out, the canon of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage was almost universally accepted after those Councils took place.
so the fact that certain books are not part of the Tridentine canon does not mean they cannot be included in the canon of the Melkite Church, for instance.
Many non-canonical books are included in the litugical canons of Eastern Catholicism, but not in its inspired canon.
Another thing is, as noted above, canonicity is not identical to inspiration. Finally, the NCE is not infallible so it could simply be mistaken on this point.
We agree on both those things. However, canonical and inspired are used almost interchangeably today, and the NCE, which has a nihil obstat, clearly states that Trent denied the “extra” books canonicity.
When has the canon of Scripture been a major point of contention between Catholic and Orthodox, apart from Twenty-First Century Catholic lay-apologists? It seems historically, the issue is somewhere below bearded clergy as a dividing issue between Catholics and Orthodox.
It hasn’t been major, really, but this is because the Orthodox view the canon as a discipline, rather than a doctrine. This makes apologetics and discussion difficult.
 
There is only one doctrine that is not in the Bible itself, and that is the Table of Contents (I borrowed that from a better man).
Actually, this is one of my:thumbsup: favorite discoveries. (One I made :extrahappy:here, years ago).
Those folks who claim that “there has to be a Bible verse that says something before I will accept it”. Following this:
see Zooey>>>>:whistle: In what verse of the Bible do you find the Table of Contents for the Bible?" :whistle:
See questioner >>>> :hypno::ouch::bigyikes:
 
Actually, this is one of my:thumbsup: favorite discoveries. (One I made :extrahappy:here, years ago).
Those folks who claim that “there has to be a Bible verse that says something before I will accept it”. Following this:
see Zooey>>>>:whistle: In what verse of the Bible do you find the Table of Contents for the Bible?" :whistle:
See questioner >>>> :hypno::ouch::bigyikes:
Thanks Zooey, the way you put it, while being entirely true, also made me smile, which is something I would like to sincerely thank you for right now. God be with you.
 
Yes, but they are usually used synonymously today, unless otherwise specified.

I don’t see how this is relevant.

Huh? As I’ve pointed out, the canon of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage was almost universally accepted after those Councils took place.

Many non-canonical books are included in the litugical canons of Eastern Catholicism, but not in its inspired canon.

We agree on both those things. However, canonical and inspired are used almost interchangeably today, and the NCE, which has a nihil obstat, clearly states that Trent denied the “extra” books canonicity.

It hasn’t been major, really, but this is because the Orthodox view the canon as a discipline, rather than a doctrine. This makes apologetics and discussion difficult.
Let’s take Trent at its plain word. Just looking at the bare meaning of Trent, it only says that the books enumerated must be received as sacred and canonical. This is no issue, since (nearly) all Orthodox recognize all the books of the Latin canon as sacred and canonical, and Trent nowhere denies that there might be other books that are sacred and canonical. It could also be argued that Trent is implicitly speaking only of the canon of the Latin Church, while allowing the canons of the Eastern Churches to include other books. Going on the text, it is hard to justify the quotation from the NCE, unless it is speaking on the basis of some additional evidence than the decree of Trent.

The difference between “liturgical canon” and “inspired canon” is a good point, but I don’t think it completely answers our question. It is my understanding that the so-called “liturgical canon” contains writings even outside the broader Eastern canons of Scripture. It seems that the Eastern canon of Scripture is not just a question of what books are to be read in the liturgy (since extra-biblical books are read liturgically and there are biblical books not read liturgically) but really a question of what books belong in the Bible, which would probably line up with the “inspired canon.” Regardless of the NCE’s nihil obstat and imprimatur, that does not mean that it is guarunteed to be 100% factually correct. The OCE has the same marks, but it has factual errors (like all encyclopedias).

I have tried to figure out what Eastern Catholics teach concerning the canon, but there dods not appear to be much consensus within the various Churches (surprise, surprise). Some say they hold to the same canon as Trent. Others say they hold to a broader canon. Either way, I think Trent allowed for a plurality of views since it did not explicitly condemn those who hold III Maccabees as canonical.
 
Let’s take Trent at its plain word. Just looking at the bare meaning of Trent, it only says that the books enumerated must be received as sacred and canonical. This is no issue, since (nearly) all Orthodox recognize all the books of the Latin canon as sacred and canonical, and Trent nowhere denies that there might be other books that are sacred and canonical. It could also be argued that Trent is implicitly speaking only of the canon of the Latin Church, while allowing the canons of the Eastern Churches to include other books. Going on the text, it is hard to justify the quotation from the NCE, unless it is speaking on the basis of some additional evidence than the decree of Trent.
I’ve heard it argued that the Latin language used is more exclusive than the English.
It is my understanding that the so-called “liturgical canon” contains writings even outside the broader Eastern canons of Scripture. It seems that the Eastern canon of Scripture is not just a question of what books are to be read in the liturgy (since extra-biblical books are read liturgically and there are biblical books not read liturgically) but really a question of what books belong in the Bible, which would probably line up with the “inspired canon.”
Is the canon of inspired Scripture a doctrine? Yes. Are the various Rites allowed to differ with each other in doctrine? No. We only differ in discipline.
Regardless of the NCE’s nihil obstat and imprimatur, that does not mean that it is guarunteed to be 100% factually correct.
Yes, but it does mean that it’s an authentic guide to how to interpret Trent, until proven otherwise. Besides, such a glaring statement would certainly have been noticed, yet both the priest and the bishop approved it as free of doctrinal error.
I have tried to figure out what Eastern Catholics teach concerning the canon, but there dods not appear to be much consensus within the various Churches (surprise, surprise).
The liturgical canons of the various Rites vary according to different regional traditions.
Some say they hold to the same canon as Trent.
They all do.
Others say they hold to a broader canon.
Only liturgically.
Either way, I think Trent allowed for a plurality of views since it did not explicitly condemn those who hold III Maccabees as canonical.
The Church is One. All her members are united in doctrine. We may vary only in discipline.
 
Let’s take Trent at its plain word.
I realise that this is a slight segue, but nonetheless relevant to everything being discussed here; an intresting test-case, perhaps: are Roman Catholics bound by the *decretum De canonicis scripturis *to believe in the Pauline authorship of the Episitle to the Hebrews?
 
I realise that this is a slight segue, but nonetheless relevant to everything being discussed here; an intresting test-case, perhaps: are Roman Catholics bound by the *decretum De canonicis scripturis *to believe in the Pauline authorship of the Episitle to the Hebrews?
No, because the intent of the document is not to determine who wrote the Epistle to the Hebrews, but to list the canonical, inspired Scriptures.
 
No, because the intent of the document is not to determine who wrote the Epistle to the Hebrews, but to list the canonical, inspired Scriptures.
Ok, cool, that’s what my answer would probably be in dealing with Hebrews and other pseudepigrahpa within the canon.

I do have to ask - and I ask myself these questions too! - if this is not a dangerous road to go down. (Note that I don’t worry that it might be a wrong road to go down!) So three areas of questioning:

First: does this mean we as Christians, or perhaps more specifically you, as Roman Catholics, can and/or should question the authorial origins of other books of Scripture, and does this affect their theological status as Scripture and as canonical?

Second: does this mean that Roman Catholics can only claim a very narrow and carefully circumscribed infallibility for the Councils? Trent is clearly in some sense fallible, if we admit the possibility that it is wrong with regard to the authorship of Hebrews. How does one limit this fallibility?

Third: does all of the above, by putting the real locus of theological authority in the *intent *of an ecumenical council, undermine the authority of ecumenical councils in general? Are decrees and canons only authoritative when correctly interpreted? How can we know that we are correctly interpreting them? Is it possible that a council could be consistently misinterpreted by the Church, or by a very large part of it?

All best wishes,

N.
 
First: does this mean we as Christians, or perhaps more specifically you, as Roman Catholics, can and/or should question the authorial origins of other books of Scripture, and does this affect their theological status as Scripture and as canonical?
Their authorship does not affect their inspiration, but we should hold to the (lower-case) traditional views of Scripture unless they’re proven very unlikely or untenable.
Second: does this mean that Roman Catholics can only claim a very narrow and carefully circumscribed infallibility for the Councils?
No.
Trent is clearly in some sense fallible,
Not at all. The authorship of Hebrews is a side comment, not an assertion of the Council.
How does one limit this fallibility?
Trent is infallible in all it asserts.
Third: does all of the above, by putting the real locus of theological authority in the *intent *of an ecumenical council, undermine the authority of ecumenical councils in general?
No.
Are decrees and canons only authoritative when correctly interpreted?
Yes.
How can we know that we are correctly interpreting them?
By the guidance of the Church.
Is it possible that a council could be consistently misinterpreted by the Church, or by a very large part of it?
No.
 
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