Bible, Quran – Beauties Beyond Comparison?

[dzheremi]

1-The Quran, which he brought, has challenged all mankind with all their literary geniuses and scientists, from the first day of its revelation to the Last Day, to produce a like of it or even a single chapter of it

A silly, perhaps downright stupid, idea. If the Qur’an is from God, then why is humanity invited into error and sin by attempting to best it in this way? If it is not of God, then this challenge is of no consequence, as many could say that it has already been met, but for the absolute lack of a suitably neutral judge.

2-The Quran was revealed in 23 years, yet there are not any contradictory points in it

Nonsense. There are plenty of contradictions in the Qur’an. Allah can do anything and everything, as he is omnipotent (35:1), yet He cannot have a child because “there is for Him no consort” (6:101)? That’s funny…Almighty GOD did not need one in the Bible, either…in fact, that’s kind of a big deal for us Christians…why was Jesus born of a virgin in the Qur’an, again? Because “Allah creates whatever He wills”, right? (3:47) That must be why there were all these other people being born of virgins all over the place in both the Qur’an and the Bible…y’know, to show us how God can do whatever He feels like doing. Because that is not clear at all from, uh…everything else in both books.

3-The Quran is completely different from all the other books in the world . one which is a book of Divine truths, metaphysics, religious beliefs and worship, prayer, law and morality, a book fully describing the other life, a book of psychology, sociology, epistemology, and history, and a book containing scientific facts and the principles of a happy life, does not have any contradictory points. Whereas, the Quran openly declares that it has no contradictions at all and therefore is a Divine Book:

I really, really do admire your belief in your book, but you’re going to have to come up with something a bit better than “the Qur’an says it has no contradictions in it, so it has no contradictions in it”. You are dealing with an audience of non-Muslims, after all. As for having no contradictory points in any of the categories listed above, I must have missed the parts in my science classes when they explained that sperm originates between the spine and the ribs, that the sun sets in a muddy pool, that embryos develop bones before they develop flesh, etc. If you are going to claim that your book is scientific, as you have done above, then you should at least be able to admit the large number of scientific errors and misunderstandings in it.

4-The Quran is beyond compare from the viewpoint of its styles and eloquence. All the sentences, words and even letters used in the Quran form such a miraculous harmony that, with respect to rhythm, music, and even geometric proportions and mathematical measures, and with respect to how many times each is used in the whole of the Quran, each is in the exact place it must be and interwoven and interrelated with others.

This is mostly your personal opinion. I could say the same thing about Shakespear with regard to eloquence and rhythm.

5-Despite its apparent simplicity, the Quran has such depths of meaning that everyone from the commonest of people to the most high-ranking scholar, scientist and literary man, finds his share in it

Yes, and many people found much to ponder in “A Million Little Pieces” or “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, too…what’s your point?

6-No one has ever been heard to be bored with the recitation of the Quran

I am living proof that this is false. I had to listen to ~15 minutes of recitation during an Arabic presentation earlier this year, and let me tell you, with all due respect to your religion (and, yes, I acknowledge that the style of the recitation is very beautiful), I was very, very bored by the five minute mark. Orthodox chant is much more beautiful, and not boring for me. But I guess it’s true what they say about different folks…

7-The Quran unveils the mystery of man, creation and the universe

So does every other foundational text of a world religion. Heck, for some people “Star Trek” or “Alien Autopsy” books or videos also do this.

8-Even though revealed in parts on certain occasions, the Qur’an is equally universal and objective where it deals with particular issues as it is exact and precise where it deals with universal matters

Again, this is something that a believer in another book would say about their own scripture. It has more to do with your belief in the scripture at hand and what that causes you to believe about its revealed truth than the actual character of the book itself. When I read the Qur’an, I do not see it as being universal or objective, because I am not a 7th century Arab, nor do I want to imitate one, particularly one of such low morals in my view as Muhammad. Give me St. Abo of Tiflis over Muhammad any day!

9-The Qur’an contains at least the principles of all the branches of knowledge either in summary or detail and not even a single piece of the knowledge it contains has ever been contradicted.

Please see examples above for several contradictions.

10-Which writer can claim that whatever he writes is absolutely correct and cannot be contradicted until the Last Day?

Anyone can claim anything they want. You choose to believe whatever it is you want to believe. That doesn’t mean anything at all to the rest of us any more than my belief in my own faith should be its own proof to non-believers such as yourself.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

The Prophethood of Muhammad, on whom be peace, was to be valid until the Last Day. It was imperative, therefore, that his miracle also be one which would last for all time. The Qur’an was, therefore, assigned to the Prophet as his everlasting miracle.

Do you therefore think the Book of Mormon is also an everlasting miracle?

 

[jblake]

elwill;:

The Qur’an was, therefore, assigned to the Prophet as his everlasting miracle.

Which one of the three major redactions, and ten minor redactions of the q’ran are you making that claim of?

1-The Quran, which he brought, has challenged all mankind with all their literary geniuses and scientists, from the first day of its revelation to the Last Day, to produce a like of it or even a single chapter of it

Any chapter in the 道德經 exceeds the scientific, literary, philosophical, and theological merit of the Q’ran.

2-The Quran was revealed in 23 years, yet there are not any contradictory points in it

The commandment to worship al-Wāqidī, Ibn Sa’d, al-Tabarī, and Ibn Ishaq contradicts the commandment to only worship Allah.

3-The Quran is completely different from all the other books in the world . one which is a book of Divine truths, metaphysics, religious beliefs and worship, prayer, law and morality, a book fully describing the other life,

The same can be said for Milinda Pañha, The Papyrus of Ani and Bardo Thodol, amongst other texts that were written more than 2,000 years ago.

Whereas, the Quran openly declares that it has no contradictions at all and therefore is a Divine Book:

In as much as it both requires and prohibits one from adhering to the six pillars of Islam, it is both self-contradictory, and proves beyond any shadow of doubt that it is pursues false gods in search of false religions. As such, its claim to being a divine book, by its own criteria, is utterly refuted, and rejected.

4-The Quran is beyond compare from the viewpoint of its styles and eloquence. All the sentences, words and even letters used in the Quran form such a miraculous harmony that, with respect to rhythm, music, and even geometric proportions and mathematical measures, and with respect to how many times each is used in the whole of the Quran, each is in the exact place it must be and interwoven and interrelated with others.

The same thing can be said of the Torah. More pointedly, the mathematical equations of the Torah have been used as proof that God wrote the Torah.

The literary masterpiece of no one, including the sayings of the Prophet himself, upon him be peace and blessings, cannot compete with the Quran.

Both the 道德經 and the 易經 show an eloquence that is far superior to that of the q’ran.

the Quran also challenged the known experts in these fields and forced them to surrender.

In as much as the q’ran was written for political unification, and Islam created for political dominance, it would be far more accurate to say “the leading poets surrendered, because if they did not, they would have been killed by the political authorities”.

5-Despite its apparent simplicity, the Quran has such depths of meaning that

That holds true for any random piece of literature that has been written in the last ten million years.

6-No one has ever been heard to be bored with the recitation of the Quran

Nobody? Surely you jest. At best, the q’ran is utter banality magnified by sheer pedestrian sloth.

7-The Quran unveils the mystery of man, creation and the universe

Liber Al Vel Legis also makes that claim. That doesn’t mean that Liber Al Vel Legis is correct.

8-Even though revealed in parts on certain occasions, the Qur’an is equally universal and objective where it deals with particular issues as it is exact and precise where it deals with universal matters

The same thing is true of Stranger in a Strange Land, Lord of the Rings, and Battlefield Earth. That doesn’t mean that they are divine — even though all three are used as religious works.

9-The Qur’an contains at least the principles of all the branches of knowledge either in summary or detail and not even a single piece of the knowledge it contains has ever been contradicted.

It is true to say not a single point has been contradicted. It would be more honest for you to say that every single data point in it has been contradicted by objective scientific knowledge.

10-Which writer can claim that whatever he writes is absolutely correct and cannot be contradicted until the Last Day?

ऋग्वेद was probably the first work to make such a claim.

I think that the author of the 道德經 is far more honest, when he wrote that those who do not know, are those who write.

This is just what the Prophet achieved through the Qur’an.

The writers of the 易經 achieved the same thing. (More to the point, the evidence suggests that had the Japanese Imperial navy continued to use 易經, Japan would have won World War Two. The Chinese Civil war during the 1960’s and 70s was probably protracted due to Máo Zédōng’s 易經 consultant’s death. (Few people realize that The Great Walk was predicted/suggested by 易經.))

jonathon

 

[planten]

Originally Posted by elwill
The Prophethood of Muhammad, on whom be peace, was to be valid until the Last Day. It was imperative, therefore, that his miracle also be one which would last for all time. The Qur’an was, therefore, assigned to the Prophet as his everlasting miracle.

**Thanks Elwill for passing the message, for twlling the truth. It appears that nobody believes. You have done your duty. May Allah reward you.

It is true that Quran is the last revealed book from God for mankind. All the good things of the previous scriptures are contained in the Quran. The previous scriptures were for that time and those people only. They are now time barred. There is no harm if any one would try to follow an old book. But it is advisable to read the latest edition, that is the final edition of sacred scripture, i.e. Quran. The Quran supports the Torah and Injeel.

The opponents of Islam have been involved in many mishaps, misundestandings. They had been preaching that God only spoke to the Jews and christians. God never remembered any of his other creatures, say Koreans and japanese and chinese and south americans. There were so many other malafide ideas too.

The final message has come. It will last till the Day of Judgement. No new Code will come now. Prophet Muhammad had said, “Even if Moses and Jesus were alive today, they would have no way except to follow in my footsteps**.” That meant, they would have to follow the Code (Law) brought by Muhammad i.e. the Quran.

 

[dzheremi]

If Jesus made a point of disobeying and chastizing the Pharisees for their fetishization of law and ritual above all else, what the heck made Muhammad think that OUR LORD (Jesus Christ) would follow him? Not a chance! Muhammad was completely delusional in his pathetically baseless self-aggrandizing here, as usual.

 

[elwill]

Do you therefore think the Book of Mormon is also an everlasting miracle?

i know nothing about mormonism
but anyway , did anyone claimed that this book is a miracle from God . or did the authors of this book said that it’s the words of God as muslims believes about quran ?

my point is that allah repeatedly in quran saying that no one can bring book like it , and always and repeatedly says that there’s no doubt that it have the truth , and repeatedly says the God will preserve the quran from the corruption and alteration

tell me in which aspect you see the book of mormon as an everlasting miracle ?

 

[Jerusha]

He was being sarcastic in his comparison. The BOM is a fraud, plagirized from other works.

 

[jblake]

elwill;:

and repeatedly says the God will preserve the quran from the corruption and alteration

Inasmuch as much as the q’ran has been redacted on a number of occasions, that both proves beyond any shadow of doubt and demonstrates that that it (the q’ran) was not preserved from either alteration or corruption, and as such, it can not be, by its own criteria, the word of any deity, and as such, using its own criteria, it advocates chasing false gods not of one’s own.

jonathon

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

tell me in which aspect you see the book of mormon as an everlasting miracle ?

I don’t, but I believe LDS members do. My point is if we’re going to simply claim that a book conceived by one man who claimed to be a prophet is a miracle, does that mean other books conceived by one man who claimed to be a prophet is a miracle?

 

[elwill]

I don’t, but I believe LDS members do. My point is if we’re going to simply claim that a book conceived by one man who claimed to be a prophet is a miracle, does that mean other books conceived by one man who claimed to be a prophet is a miracle?

okey show me how LDS members themselfs believe that thier book is everlasting miracle for them ?
if they believe it’s words or trust it , it dosn’t mean thay they consider it thier everlasting miracle .
in which aspect they consider thier book as a miracle ? (if they really do)

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

okey show me how LDS members themselfs believe that thier book is everlasting miracle for them ?
if they believe it’s words or trust it , it dosn’t mean thay they consider it thier everlasting miracle .
in which aspect they consider thier book as a miracle ? (if they really do)

See this page.

My dear brothers and sisters, do we realize the profound miracle that is the translation of the Book of Mormon?..

On Joseph’s shoulders rested not only the translation of the Book of Mormon but also the restoration and reestablishment of the Church of Jesus Christ. Even as Joseph translated, he received many revelations and visitations from heavenly messengers who gave him additional important assignments, such as the restoration of the priesthood and the revelation on baptism (see JS—H 1:68–75)…

The Book of Mormon is the “keystone of our religion” and will bring us “nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194). May we appreciate this miraculous translation, and may it be our desire to come to know and follow the Savior through his teachings in the Book of Mormon, I humbly pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Now, please answer my question: if we are to be consistent, and if Mohammad’s great miracle is the Koran…then is Joseph Smith’s great miracle the Book of Mormon?

 

[elwill]

See this page.

My dear brothers and sisters, do we realize the profound miracle that is the translation of the Book of Mormon?..

On Joseph’s shoulders rested not only the translation of the Book of Mormon but also the restoration and reestablishment of the Church of Jesus Christ. Even as Joseph translated, he received many revelations and visitations from heavenly messengers who gave him additional important assignments, such as the restoration of the priesthood and the revelation on baptism (see JS—H 1:68–75)…

The Book of Mormon is the “keystone of our religion” and will bring us “nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194). May we appreciate this miraculous translation, and may it be our desire to come to know and follow the Savior through his teachings in the Book of Mormon, I humbly pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Now, please answer my question: if we are to be consistent, and if Mohammad’s great miracle is the Koran…then is Joseph Smith’s great miracle the Book of Mormon?

they can believe whatever they want , but can they show us the miracles exist in thier book , can they tell us why thier book is miracle and from which point of view it is ?

when we say that quran is miracle , we show you why it’s a miracle .
can they show us why thier book is miracle , or its just kind of faith ?

 

[dzheremi]

You do nothing of the kind, Elwill. All I’ve seen of the so-called Qur’anic miracles are vague passages interpreted to fit whatever story that is claimed to show how visionary and miraculous the Qur’an is. Excuse me if I remain unamazed, but any Tarik, Dawud, and Husayn can apply any verse to anything they feel like. That’s exactly why it doesn’t prove squat.

There are NO miracles in the Qur’an. NONE. The Qur’an itself is not a miracle and it contains no miracle. Not one.

 

[ZAKI]

You do nothing of the kind, Elwill. All I’ve seen of the so-called Qur’anic miracles are vague passages interpreted to fit whatever story that is claimed to show how visionary and miraculous the Qur’an is. Excuse me if I remain unamazed, but any Tarik, Dawud, and Husayn can apply any verse to anything they feel like. That’s exactly why it doesn’t prove squat.

There are NO miracles in the Qur’an. NONE. The Qur’an itself is not a miracle and it contains no miracle. Not one.

tell that to the scientists who have converted to islam after seeing the various and profound verses of the Quran.
If the Qu’ran is not a miracle, how come 1.8 billion people across the globe heed it as the word of God?

wasalam

 

[dzheremi]

Nice argument ad populum there, Zaki. No, no, the Qur’an is not a miracle because a lot of people follow it any more than Harry Potter is a miracle because many people also follow that book with rabid, inexplainable devotion.

As for scientists, no scientist worth their salt uses any religious scripture as a science book. Scientists are not theologians, and the Qur’an is not a miracle.

 

[ZAKI]

Nice argument ad populum there, Zaki. No, no, the Qur’an is not a miracle because a lot of people follow it any more than Harry Potter is a miracle because many people also follow that book with rabid, inexplainable devotion.

As for scientists, no scientist worth their salt uses any religious scripture as a science book. Scientists are not theologians, and the Qur’an is not a miracle.

i never said that they use it as a science book but when they see scientific miracles in the Quran proven today they convert to the truth (which is islam).

wasalam

 

[Reuben_J]

SSTeacher:

I don’t understand the question. Do you mean that you want me to comment on the three that you’ve highlighted or that you want me to state whether or not I think the three you’ve highlighted lead to more interesting trains of thought than the other six?

Respectfully,
Mick

Sorry for the late response. Been away last week. Thank you for all of you who have contributed to the topic of the thread.

Mick, I was thinking if you could elaborate on the phrases that I highlighted. What you think of them and what they mean, that kind of things. I thought maybe I could hear some sharing and possibly (name removed by moderator)ut from you, your remark notwithstanding, “ …How curious to find so late in life that these sayings were in the Bible.”

There’s nothing new under the sun;
The apple of your eye;
Escaped with only the skin of my teeth;
A drop in a bucket;
Don’t let the sun go down while you’re still angry;
We brought nothing into the world and we can take nothing out of it;
How the mighty have fallen;
A wolf in sheep’s clothing;
The writing is on the wall.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

i never said that they use it as a science book but when they see scientific miracles in the Quran proven today they convert to the truth (which is islam).

Is this like how Niel Armstrong supposedly converted to Islam?

There are just as many scientists who have read the Koran and not converted to Islam. But you haven’t provided any real figures outside of an argumentum ad populam (which is a logical fallacy) to give a case for your statement.

they can believe whatever they want , but can they show us the miracles exist in thier book , can they tell us why thier book is miracle and from which point of view it is ?

when we say that quran is miracle , we show you why it’s a miracle .
can they show us why thier book is miracle , or its just kind of faith ?

The article discusses why they believe it to be a miracle. Again, is the Book of Mormon a miracle if the Koran itself is a miracle?

The fact is if you study the history of Judaism and Christianity, no one ever considered a book itself to be a miracle. Moses didn’t walk into Egypt and get Jews to follow him by saying, “Hey, look at this cool book I’m working on!” On the contrary, God performed miracles through him such as turning his staff into a snake and bringing plagues upon Egypt. Mohammad cannot compare; as dzheremi said, the best most Muslims can do is distort passages to fit what they want them to mean.

 

[Reuben_J]

elwill:

The Prophethood of Muhammad, on whom be peace, was to be valid until the Last Day. It was imperative, therefore, that his miracle also be one which would last for all time. The Qur’an was, therefore, assigned to the Prophet as his everlasting miracle.

There are many different aspects of the Qur’an’s miraculous nature

1-The Quran, which he brought, has challenged all mankind with all their literary geniuses and scientists, from the first day of its revelation to the Last Day, to produce a like of it or even a single chapter of it

2-The Quran was revealed in 23 years, yet there are not any contradictory points in it

3-The Quran is completely different from all the other books in the world . one which is a book of Divine truths, metaphysics, religious beliefs and worship, prayer, law and morality, a book fully describing the other life, a book of psychology, sociology, epistemology, and history, and a book containing scientific facts and the principles of a happy life, does not have any contradictory points. Whereas, the Quran openly declares that it has no contradictions at all and therefore is a Divine Book:

4-The Quran is beyond compare from the viewpoint of its styles and eloquence. All the sentences, words and even letters used in the Quran form such a miraculous harmony that, with respect to rhythm, music, and even geometric proportions and mathematical measures, and with respect to how many times each is used in the whole of the Quran, each is in the exact place it must be and interwoven and interrelated with others. The literary masterpiece of no one, including the sayings of the Prophet himself, upon him be peace and blessings, cannot compete with the Quran.

4-In the period when the Quran was revealed, in addition to eloquence, poetry and oratory enjoyed great prestige in the Arabian peninsula. They used to hold poetry competitions and the poems of the winners write in gold and hang on the wall of the Ka‘ba. The Prophet Muhammad was, as everybody knows, unlettered and no one had heard him say even a couple of poetry. However, the Quran also challenged the known experts in these fields and forced them to surrender. When those who persisted in unbelief heard the Quran, they were captivated by it. Nevertheless, in order to prevent the spread of Islam, they labeled it as something magical and advised people not to listen to it. But when those, like Hansa and Lebid, who believed in the Quran, gave up inventing poetry after the Quran’s revelation in respect for and awe of its styles and eloquence, the unbelievers had to confess: ‘If we call it a piece of poetry, it is not. If we designate it a piece of rhymed prose, it is not. If we describe it as the word of a soothsayer, it is not.’ At times, they could not help listening to the Prophet’s recitation secretly at night but they could not overcome their arrogance and so believe in its Divine origin.

5-Despite its apparent simplicity, the Quran has such depths of meaning that everyone from the commonest of people to the most high-ranking scholar, scientist and literary man, finds his share in it

6-No one has ever been heard to be bored with the recitation of the Quran

7-The Quran unveils the mystery of man, creation and the universe

8-Even though revealed in parts on certain occasions, the Qur’an is equally universal and objective where it deals with particular issues as it is exact and precise where it deals with universal matters

9-The Qur’an contains at least the principles of all the branches of knowledge either in summary or detail and not even a single piece of the knowledge it contains has ever been contradicted.

10-Which writer can claim that whatever he writes is absolutely correct and cannot be contradicted until the Last Day?

11-However knowledgeable you are and if you are famous for your truthfulness, can you speak on behalf of the president, the prime minister and all of the ministers, and also on behalf of the associations of literary men, lawyers and craftsmen, and the board of university lecturers and scientists? If you can, can you claim that you represented them all as perfectly as each would want you to? If you can, can you legislate for all the affairs of the country? This is just what the Prophet achieved through the Qur’an.

and there are more

Peace be to you, Elwill.

Sorry to say this, but I just could change the word ‘Quran’ and substitute it with ‘ Bible’ or ‘Book of Mormon’, and I could just say the same thing you said.

Don’t you realize that we can get pretty silly when we claim something as ‘the most beautiful’ but have nothing to substantiate it with? It would have been a respectful attempt if you had given some example verses of the Quran and tell us why they are miracles in term of beauty, wisdom and even impact. These are all subjective but if you try to show us why, then maybe we have something to talk about.

BTW, your post had been brilliantly argued against by dzheremi and responded to with wit, humor and a little touch of sarcasm by jblake for extra measure. They are quite a mouthful. I hope you all continue to sort that out. So far you had not made a case for the Quran, but then again, I could be biased, so let it out then.

Elwill, I want to hear what’s so beautiful about the Quran. Which is it? At least planten tried to put in some verses. At his point, I refrain from saying, is that all you have to show for? I know we have some limitation in the knowledge of our holy book respectively but I want to know what strikes you in the Quran that makes you say it is beautiful, a miracle? I don’t want to hear you saying it is a miracle just because someone else says so.

I have tried to give examples of some of the content of the Bible, some of them actually had made an impact in my own life. The Eleventh Hour, for example. Despite being a cradle Catholic, I came to truly know the Lord quite late in life thus the eleventh hour and yet I was paid the same day wages, and my life has been changed since then.

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hadi:

Ruben,

1- you are speaking about the English-speaking culture that has the bible for hundreds of years…when was the Quran first translated to English and what percentage of the English speaking people read it …very recent and very few…but if you look at the Arab world ,you would find that many quotes from the Quran are wildly used…but very few from the Bible…this is also true for other cultures who have little exposure to the Bible

2- as for English ,you have a great history of Bible translations influenced by culture and the translator artistic choice of words…some are beautifully selected and some are not…most of the English translations of the Quran were done recently by translators who lived in non-Engish speaking country or English was not their mother’s tongue…also,the quotes you showed may not be widely used in other languages…they are best fit with English…I once translated myself few verses from Mathew (bless the …) to an Arabic audience but looked poorly translated but later found a good translation and presented it and it looked really good…

3- so what if the Bible contains beautiful verses?? praise the Lord…the Quran quotes form the psalms (the righteous inherits the earth)

Thanks bro Hadi for your post. It is such a non-threatening and polite response. I understand what you’re trying to say - that the Quran is perhaps more confined to the Arab speaking world.

But I think I may not be wrong if I say that Arabic is not spoken by the majority of Muslims worldwide. No? It does not have to confine to English only. I was just trying to make a point. In fact the word ‘pearl’ can be spoken in any other language as long as we know the context in which it is spoken and referred to. So do you have something similar in the Quran which usage has become universal?

It is not quite correct to say that the Quran is less known by people considering there are a billion Muslims worldwide and surely they have interacted with people outside their own community, don’t they?

God bless.