Bible - Qur'an Comparison

[Angelos]

The words in their scripture. Do you want me to give an example? You won’t like it…

Give me the example and let ME decide about liking or disliking them.

Absolutely impossible to say. But Christians managed to take the teachings of Jesus and begin to worship him… I would say that is a pretty drastic effect on the original message. (Remember of course that TEXT is not necessariliy ORIGINAL.)

This is only an inference you can draw from a few vague verses in the Koran. However, your Koran does not say that Christians rewrote the Gospel in accordance with their supposed heresies!

This is a kind of lame way to dance around the argument. A minute ago you rejected I had even put forth such an ayah and now you try to conceal its meaning. Oddly enough, exactly what Christians are accused of doing.

Now you mean that your scripture cannot say human words from the words of the book or of Allah? Try something else! The book or revelation is not the only word human beings have and utter, dear sister. Even if we supposed so, changing words from their right places would not necessarily mean rewriting a message or making permanent modifications on a text.

Not really. How many people do you know who actually make a habit of reading the entire Bible, for example, cover to cover? Truth is that people can be easily misled by quoting just a few verses out of their context. And typically that’s what people get in church anyway–the same verses recycled, and they don’t necessarily get the context much less the rest of the text.

Now you are off topic again! What is the logical relation between the number of people reading the entire Bible and permanent written modifications on a text??? Further, the same argument of yours goes with Muslims too: they quote a few verses from the Koran in order to convince people that their comments accurately represent the whole Koran.

Okay, I read them. Do you believe them to be the Word of God? Unless you do I’m not sure why I need to discuss them with you.

This is another way of saying I am giving up! I am not quoting from the Koran in order to convince myself that it tells the truth, but only you that your interpretation and claims are debunked by some verses of your Scripture!

Trying again to ignore the obvious, are you? Here is another one for you

2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: “This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

You must be joking when you use the word OBVIOUS! There is nothing obvious in this last quotation of yours. Please stop making references to the Koran while ignoring the context of certain verses! Who are those people writing the book with their hands? **What book **do they write with their hands? Can they replace the work of their hands with the original book in question? Do all people believe that the book they write with their hands is the original book? Answer my questions next time instead of giving me another obscure sentence

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Angelos]

Peace.

There is no evidence that he didn’t build a spaceship and fly to Jupiter when he was 4 years old either. Please have a little common sense.

Asking ME to have a little common sense when you restrict the sense of “innovation” to science fiction?

What you are doing is called speculating.

Something rather natural because I am responding to your claims, which are but speculation.

16:103 We know indeed that they say, “It is a man that teaches him.” The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.

Such a weak argument from a scripture believed to be miraculous indeed! There was none to translate at that time or were all translators on a strike? Besides, it is questionable that the Koran’s language is pure and clear Arabic.

How would you know?Indeed!! What purpose would it serve for his “miracles” to appear in the Qur’an? Miracles are only good for the people who can see it. Today in 2008 we cannot witness those miracles–they are useless to us. The Qur’an however is an everlasting miracle. It is a miracle which induced me to embrace Islam so I will attest to that. It has miracles of the unseen–knowledge of things which weren’t revealed before, or that Muhammad wouldn’t have known except by revelation from God. Those are the relevant miracles. Not feeding crowds, or providing them water to purify with, milking a goat that had no milk, splitting the moon, etc. By the way though, splitting the moon is in the Qur’an, as is the night journey (israa’) to Jerusalem.

This means the so-called everlasting miracle of the Koran was not deemed sufficient by Mohammad and his followers! Knowledge of the things that were not seen before? They had not been revealed before because it was only Mohammad that wanted to devise new stories.

Who decided that some of his supposed miracles were to appear in the Koran? Show me the verses that says Mohammad miraculously split the moon as well as the one that regards Mohammad’s supposed transfer to Jerusalem as one of his miracles.

When you’re ready.

If it is up to you, I shall never get those answers

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Lapell]

Angelos… a little Islam101 for you here.

The Qur’an mentions, and Muslims believe in five (5) different revelations. In chronological order listed with associated Messenger, they are:

1. Sufuf - Scrolls (Abraham)
2. Tawurat - Torah (Moses)
3. Zabuur - Psalms (David)
4. Injeel - Gospel (Jesus)
5. Qur’an (Muhammad)

Do you see “Bible” on that list? Right. It’s not there!

You’ve missed the entire point of what a corrupted revelation means, because you think that Muslims believe the Bible was revealed. Clearly, that’s not the case.

 

[Lapell]

Angelos… a little Islam101 for you here.

The Qur’an mentions, and Muslims believe in five (5) different revelations. In chronological order listed with associated Messenger, they are:

1. Sufuf - Scrolls (Abraham)
2. Tawurat - Torah (Moses)
3. Zabuur - Psalms (David)
4. Injeel - Gospel (Jesus)
5. Qur’an (Muhammad)

Do you see “Bible” on that list? Right. It’s not there!

You’ve missed the entire point of what a corrupted revelation means, because you think that Muslims believe the Bible was revealed. Clearly, that’s not the case.

Have we? Still, the Torah and the Psalms are important parts of the Bible.Are these considered “corrupt” also?
Moreover, if you’re an observant Jew or Christian, you can’t dismiss the other books of the bible just like that. They too are considered to be inspired books, and therefore to be the Word of God. No corruption here. Not from simply having those books in the Bible, at any rate. These were among the books accepted in the canon of the Bible when the books were put together as being inspired by God Himself! You don’t want to call them “unclean” when they are “clean”, or “corrupt” when they are not!
Even the prophet Muhammad doesn’t have the authority to call Biblical books “corrupt”, neither even the angels, even angels of God, did you know that?

 

[Lapell]

So who is missing the point about corrupt Scriptures?

 

[Lapell]

That revelation is NOT “the Bible” but rather that revelation is the scrolls of Abraham, the Torah, Psalms, and Gospel (and the Qur’an of course.)

Now, I have never heard of the scrolls of Abraham before, sister Amy. What are they? Is it the same as our book of Genesis, or something different? How long is it? What’s its message?

 

[rikkk1958]

There is no comparisson! What Quran has is nothing but what Muhammed heard. Could Muhammed recite what is in the Quran without people who spread the words in the Bible during that time? Logically speaking, the answer is no. Illiterate as he was, Muhammed can only hear and not read. Logically, he misheard so much that he recited most of them so wrong. It was the chaotic situation in the Arabian Peninsula that prompted Muhammed to make his new religion. The region had no law to govern them. Muhammed wanted to imitate the Bible but got it so wrongly and ended up making islam as part of the law for the arabs. I read the Quran from the beginnig to end and it just did not inspire me. The concept of his writings are pure hatred to non believers and forces the people at that time to submission. There is not enough convincing of love. The free will is the most important gift God has given to mankind, without it what good the world can be if every one is already programmed what he should be. I am sorry to say that the reason why the middle east is in turmoil is because of the Muhammed’s teachings. I have compassion to some muslims who interpret the teachings as non violent but we have seen and heard that most muslims interpret it as their reason to fight for the sake of their allah. The Jihad is just ruining their lives. If muslims follow Jesus, then they must obey His teachings that is to love thy neighbor as thyself. They are just doing the opposite. Many explains that Islam is peace but I do believe its not because many Imams are just busy interpreting the Quran just what it is.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Lapell–I starkly disagree with your outlook on the world. And I think it might be better if we just leave it there–we strongly disagree on fundamental principles. Not to argue, not to say one of us is superior to the other because only God knows. But I think your worldview is just so different from mine that I cannot clearly explain myself. Please forgive me. I don’t mean to offend you or anyone else here, and I think that it might be better if we can gently part and avoid a confrontation.

To answer your question though, Muslims believe in revelation to Abraham–the scrolls. This is not something that even exists today as far as we know. That’s not the point. Muslims believe in it because the Qur’an mentions it. That is the only reason for many beliefs in Islam–the Qur’an. Muslims believe that God revealed it. In the same way, Muslims believe God Almighty revealed other messages. And the scrolls don’t even exist so why on earth should Muslims accept as authority other scriptures when they have their own, truth from their Lord, confirming what came before it and passing over what is unnecessary, and providing the criterion to judge between right and wrong? In short, the Qur’an is enough.

 

[Sister_Amy]

rikkk–there is a very simple reply to your post:

If you are telling the truth, bring your proof.

 

[Sister_Amy]

As I remember, last time we were discussing the People of the Book, not the judgment of every creature by Allah. Your posts are not consistent with each other: from the analysis of the concept of BOOK to the PEOPLE of the book, now finally to universal JUDGMENT. I fail to understand what you are trying to get at.

I’m not surprised that you’re confused. I guess you expected that when you mentioned the Sabians I would follow a different kind of reasoning. But I don’t know who they are and neither do you. So what can we say about them other than we don’t know about them? We can say that God will judge them, just like he will judge Jews and Christians, Muslims and everyone else too. This is a very basic tenet of Islam.

This means many people who were not Jewish subsequently became the People of the Book because they believed in the prophet of Jews? Now it is clear that the phrase People of the Book does not necessarily mean a community who was given divine revelation.

Your conclusion does not proceed logically from your presumption. The reason I stated those short, simple sentences three times each was to really hammer in the point. It seems I failed to do so. It is also quite apparent that despite all this discussion you haven’t been able to determine yet who the People of the Book are.

Yes, the Jews were chosen above other peoples. But salvation was never only for Jews. They were sent many more messengers than any other nation–but they weren’t the only nation to receive mesesngers. God created all of mankind, and God can forgive all of mankind. The distinction of “people of the Book” is different than “Jews” and “Christians.” If people accepted Jesus as a prophet, whether he was sent to them or not, then they became People of the Book because they accepted the revelation. See?

Saying that they have SOME of it with no reference to the Koran illustrates how you Muslims confuse your pesonal comments with your Scripture!

I think that you haven’t really even read my posts.

Here again you do not follow the claims of the Koran, but of Muslim scholars. Was Gospel like ahadith? Why does your Allah say He revealed the Gospel then? Delete Injeel from your previous list of Allah’s books

Who was given the Gospel? Who was GIVEN the Injeel? Let me give you a hint, I’ve already told you.

There was no such need for Jewish and Christian Scripture to be identical to the Koran in form since the concept of dictation versus inspiration came through Mohammad’s wishful thinking! The point I m trying to make here is this: you Muslims would not believe in the Bible even if it had been identical to the Koran in form! Then why the need and zeal to prove the distortion theory by making comparisons between the Bible and the Koran on the sole basis of form?

Let me be perfectly clear, to you and anyone else reading.

The beliefs of Muslims are based on the Qur’an. The reason Muslims believe God revealed to Moses, to David, to Jesus etc is because the Qur’an says so. The reasons Muslims don’t trust what is in the hands of Christians and Jews is because the Qur’an says they have altered it. End of story.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Give me the example and let ME decide about liking or disliking them.

The Jews of Arabia said they had altered the story about Isaac and Ishmael, to make Isaac seem the one who Abraham was going to sacrifice, when in fact it was Ishmael (as Muslims believe.) It was Jews who told the Muslims that Jews had changed the story.

Now you mean that your scripture cannot say human words from the words of the book or of Allah?

This doesn’t even make sense. Muslims believe that God revealed the Qur’an VERBATIM. It is not the words of man in the Qur’an, only the words of God.

This is another way of saying I am giving up! I am not quoting from the Koran in order to convince myself that it tells the truth, but only you that your interpretation and claims are debunked by some verses of your Scripture!

Ehh? Would you believe me if I posted verses from the Bible? Neither will I take you as an authority on the Qur’an.

You must be joking when you use the word OBVIOUS!There is nothing obvious in this last quotation of yours. Please stop making references to the Koran while ignoring the context of certain verses! Who are those people writing the book with their hands? **What book **do they write with their hands? Can they replace the work of their hands with the original book in question? Do all people believe that the book they write with their hands is the original book? Answer my questions next time instead of giving me another obscure sentence.

Have you ever thought that it’s difficult to see the sun because the sky is in the way? I really didn’t know you had so much difficulty understanding things. Who are those people writing the book with their hands? Open up your New Testament. (I said “your New Testament” to keep in line with your accusatory tone regarding the Qur’an which you keep saying is mine somehow though I can’t imagine how.) They write THE BIBLE with their own hands. That means that they don’t write with inspiration or revelation from God. It’s not a very difficult concept. Stop trying to confound the matter, it is much more simple than you imagine.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Such a weak argument from a scripture believed to be miraculous indeed! There was none to translate at that time or were all translators on a strike? Besides, it is questionable that the Koran’s language is pure and clear Arabic.

It is not questionable to the Arabs, and was not questionable at the time of Muhammad either.

Who decided that some of his supposed miracles were to appear in the Koran? Show me the verses that says Mohammad miraculously split the moon as well as the one that regards Mohammad’s supposed transfer to Jerusalem as one of his miracles.

54:1-3 about the moon–that would be the chapter called Al-Qamar (i.e., the Moon). And 17:1 about the journey to Jerusalem, in the chapter called Israa’ (Night Journey.) God decided what is in the Qur’an.

If it is up to you, I shall never get those answers

Not answers, questions. The three questions the Jews asked of Muhammad to see if he was a prophet or not. Or did you forget already?

Anyway, question 1: To tell them about a group that isolated themselves and fell asleep. Question 2: To tell them about a man who had traveled to the east and to the west. Question 3: To tell them the meaning of the Spirit.

Now try reading Surat al-Kahf to find the answers.

 

[Angelos]

I’m not surprised that you’re confused. I guess you expected that when you mentioned the Sabians I would follow a different kind of reasoning. But I don’t know who they are and neither do you. So what can we say about them other than we don’t know about them? We can say that God will judge them, just like he will judge Jews and Christians, Muslims and everyone else too. This is a very basic tenet of Islam.

You are surprisingly consistent with irrelevance! The reason I mentioned Sabians was to make you see that it is impossible to restrict the concept “People of the Book” to a certain group that supposedly received the divine message from first hand.

Your conclusion does not proceed logically from your presumption. The reason I stated those short, simple sentences three times each was to really hammer in the point. It seems I failed to do so. It is also quite apparent that despite all this discussion you haven’t been able to determine yet who the People of the Book are.

Neither can you determine yet who the people of the book are although that concept is derived from your Scripture.

Yes, the Jews were chosen above other peoples. But salvation was never only for Jews. They were sent many more messengers than any other nation–but they weren’t the only nation to receive mesesngers. God created all of mankind, and God can forgive all of mankind. The distinction of “people of the Book” is different than “Jews” and “Christians.” If people accepted Jesus as a prophet, whether he was sent to them or not, then they became People of the Book because they accepted the revelation. See?

You are being evasive and off-topic again by forcing me to focus on the term “messenger” rather than revelation. Fruitless efforts of yours fail to change the fact that three of the four divine revelations in Islamic faith were sent to Jews alone, no other nation. According to this edited view of yours, all Christians and Jews are the People of the Book, right?

I think that you haven’t really even read my posts.

This is my sentence actually!

Who was given the Gospel? Who was GIVEN the Injeel? Let me give you a hint, I’ve already told you.

So was the Torah given to Jews according to your scripture! What makes you define the Injeel as an oral message different than the Koran, a written and supposedly preserved revelation?

The beliefs of Muslims are based on the Qur’an. The reason Muslims believe God revealed to Moses, to David, to Jesus etc is because the Qur’an says so. The reasons Muslims don’t trust what is in the hands of Christians and Jews is because the Qur’an says they have altered it. End of story.

For the 4th time you put forward the same claim that Jews and Christians have altered the revelation and you do this with no specific evidence from your scripture!

 

[Angelos]

The Jews of Arabia said they had altered the story about Isaac and Ishmael, to make Isaac seem the one who Abraham was going to sacrifice, when in fact it was Ishmael (as Muslims believe.) It was Jews who told the Muslims that Jews had changed the story.

I do not want hearsay! These are apparently one of the speculations you have learned from an Imam! I know what you would say to me if I claimed to hear Muslims say some parts of the Koran are misleading and scientifically wrong! Nevertheless, I do not know why your beloved scripture – the final supreme revelation(!) – is unaware of those Jews blurting the significant secret to Arabs. In the current Koran the child Abraham decides to offer as a sacrifice is Isaac, not Ishmael. Ishmael is an innovation that does not occur in the Koran until Medina period. Ishmael is suddenly made one of Abraham’s sons after Mohammad’s migration!

This doesn’t even make sense. Muslims believe that God revealed the Qur’an VERBATIM. It is not the words of man in the Qur’an, only the words of God.

You do not understand my point again! The Koran knows better than you that not every word used by Jews/Christians necessarily refer to their quotation from the Bible! Don’t you really know that Jews and Christians can speak and read without reciting the Bible? How can you claim that the words they change from their right places are the words of the Bible/revelation? However, I understand that is what you are expected to do in order to keep the pot boiling.

Ehh? Would you believe me if I posted verses from the Bible? Neither will I take you as an authority on the Qur’an.

You should have said this at the beginning of our discussion then!

Have you ever thought that it’s difficult to see the sun because the sky is in the way? I really didn’t know you had so much difficulty understanding things. Who are those people writing the book with their hands? Open up your New Testament. (I said “your New Testament” to keep in line with your accusatory tone regarding the Qur’an which you keep saying is mine somehow though I can’t imagine how.) They write THE BIBLE with their own hands. That means that they don’t write with inspiration or revelation from God. It’s not a very difficult concept. Stop trying to confound the matter, it is much more simple than you imagine.

Is this really the best of yours? Each time you come up with something worse. Now I still wonder who writes the Bible with their hands? Do you happen to know some people writing the Bible with their hands today? How can you say that the writers of the Old and New Testament wrote the books with no inspiration? The first Koran was written by hands too if necessary to remind you! Do you believe that a divine hand wrote the verses on parchments/animal skins/ stones/ leaves?

Further, you still could not answer my questions about the context of the verse u recurrently posted! Reading into the Koran is not the same as providing evidence, dear sister! It is apparent even from the present tense marker of the verb “write” in that verse that Mohammad’s scribes did not mean a general and permanent distortion of the book in question (probably the Torah since the verse coming before it explicitly talks about some illiterate Jews). Neither does the verse state that the fake copies of the book replaced the original one nor does it warn Muslims about distortion. What you deliberately fail to see is that **2:79 **refers to the evil people fabricating some stories and attributing them to God. Such books written by such crooked people we designate as APOCRYPHAL and do not accept as a part of sacred scripture. Spurious writings exist – this is what the Koran reiterates – but they cannot take the place of the original scriptures. So stop worrying!

If the Koran had really meant the distortion of the Bible by similar verses – you somehow ignore the fact that verbal alterations can never harm the original copies -, it would have done it more overtly and much earlier! Actually, the real and only reason Koran mentions people misreading the book or faking the revelation is its anti-Semitic tone, which made its way into the Koran after Mohammad’s controversies and contentions with Jews of Arabia! This also explains why Allah changed his mind in the course of his revelation: **10:94 **He asked Mohammad to consult Jews in order to be sure about the revelation whereas in **2:75-79 **He declared Jews as dishonest people that do not respect even their faith!

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Angelos]

It is not questionable to the Arabs, and was not questionable at the time of Muhammad either.

To the Arabs I know, it IS questionable, it WAS questionable for many people at the time of Mohammad too! Study a book that lists all the foreign words borrowed by the Koran.

54:1-3 about the moon–that would be the chapter called Al-Qamar (i.e., the Moon). And 17:1 about the journey to Jerusalem, in the chapter called Israa’ (Night Journey.) God decided what is in the Qur’an.

In the Koran I have and check, Mohammad’s name does not occur in the sentence talking of the split moon as an apocalyptic sign. Have you got a different Koran? You mean the night journey that no one else but Mohammad witnessed? Do you really call that hypothetical transfer a miracle?

Not answers, questions. The three questions the Jews asked of Muhammad to see if he was a prophet or not. Or did you forget already?

Anyway, question 1: To tell them about a group that isolated themselves and fell asleep. Question 2: To tell them about a man who had traveled to the east and to the west. Question 3: To tell them the meaning of the Spirit.

Now try reading Surat al-Kahf to find the answers.

These three were really selected by Jews who wanted to test Mohammad? What were their criteria?

Question 1) Jews asking Mohammad to relate a purely Christian story? The story of the 7 sleepers(a story that was considered a legend by many!)? OMG This is almost a miracle in itself!

Question 2) Jews asking Mohammad to relate the story of the famous Alexander the Great? What did that specific group of Jews have to do with the Hellenistic Emperor?

Question 3) The answer to this question cannot be found in the chapter named AL Kahf! Such a question is present in the previous chapter named Isra:

17: 85. They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.

More, there is no evidence in the Koran that the story of the 7 sleepers was a question asked by a group of people although it is true that the other 2 questions were narrated on the request of some curious people.

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

 

[inJESUS]

Angelos, welcome back !! great posts…

As to people writing things and claiming they are from God, well this has nothing to do with Bible corruption…it has to do with anyone writing anythin and claiming it is from God…any Jew or Christian or Muslim can do this…it has nothing to do with textual corruption of the Bible…it could even refer to the Talmud…one thing is clear…there is not one single Quranic verse that talks about TEXTUAL corruption but about corruption of meaning…on the contrary, Muhammad urged Jews and Christians to abide by their books…

 

[inJESUS]

Question 1)

Jews asking Mohammad to relate a purely Christian story? The story of the 7 sleepers(a story that was considered a legend by many!)? OMG This is almost a miracle in itself! one of the legends attributed to God, among others.

Question 3)

The answer to this question cannot be found in the chapter named AL Kahf! Such a question is present in the previous chapter named Isra:

17: 85. They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little. i see he did not even answer this question… the meaning is : i don’t know.

 

[dolphinlove]

Although im galavanting around europe at the moment, i had a niggling urge to get on here… and i know why…
welcome back Angelos and InJesus!
Its good to see you are back hard at work defending the true faith!
God bless you both…
:grouphug:

Booklover, :hug3:
Thats a special one for you my friend!

 

[Sister_Amy]

As to people writing things and claiming they are from God, well this has nothing to do with Bible corruption…it has to do with anyone writing anythin and claiming it is from God…any Jew or Christian or Muslim can do this…it has nothing to do with textual corruption of the Bible…it could even refer to the Talmud…one thing is clear…there is not one single Quranic verse that talks about TEXTUAL corruption but about corruption of meaning…on the contrary, Muhammad urged Jews and Christians to abide by their books…

This is a very misleading post. Christians and Jews are supposed to not abide by their “books” as you say but to judge by what God has revealed and that alone.

 

[Sister_Amy]

My question was: “Who was given the Injeel?”
And this was your reply:

So was the Torah given to Jews according to your scripture! What makes you define the Injeel as an oral message different than the Koran, a written and supposedly preserved revelation?

And it’s not the right answer. I mean, you totally missed the point. I will say it again. The Injeel was given to Jesus. Not to the Jews, but to Jesus. I was that specific and yet you couldn’t ansewr it. According to the Qur’an, the Injeel was given to Jesus. Let that sink in.

The Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad–the word itself means recitation–something that is recited. It was not revealed from Heaven in written form, but it was recited and memorized and written down, and preserved by God. This is all very simple.

For the 4th time you put forward the same claim that Jews and Christians have altered the revelation and you do this with no specific evidence from your scripture.

Don’t be silly, I have provided numerous ayaat to back up this claim from the Qur’an. Simply saying otherwise is counterfactual. And I’ll do so again, the aya below is talking about the Children of Israel, mentioned in 5:12.

5:13 But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.