Bible study and sola scriptura

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ontheway
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well said, and I second the Agape site, our Men’s Bible Study has been using it for about four years now. See if you can’t steer your group towards the study on Salvation History. It will take you through most of the Old Testament and highlights the wealth of evidence that the Savior is coming. You will be amazed at how it ties the entire bible into a single unified work of the Holy Spirit.

God bless!
THANKS:thumbsup:

I am well aware of the OT connection [myself]🙂

I generally steer away from BUT do not avoid the OT; because I find that a great many Protestants are more in their “comfort-zone” there, than in the NT. And as the NT completes, fulfills and perfects the OT; as well as clearly express our Blessed Lords fulfilled-desire for One

God [1st Commandment]
Faith [Mt. 28:19-20]
& Church [His New “chosen people” [Mr 16; 18-19]

It is my prayer that some may be assisted by the Holy Spirit to actually be enabled to rightly understand God’s truth

God Bless,
Patrick
 
THANKS:thumbsup:

I am well aware of the OT connection [myself]🙂

I generally steer away from BUT do not avoid the OT; because I find that a great many Protestants are more in their “comfort-zone” there, than in the NT. And as the NT completes, fulfills and perfects the OT; as well as clearly express our Blessed Lords fulfilled-desire for One

God [1st Commandment]
Faith [Mt. 28:19-20]
& Church [His New “chosen people” [Mr 16; 18-19]

It is my prayer that some may be assisted by the Holy Spirit to actually be enabled to rightly understand God’s truth

God Bless,
Patrick
Don’t discount the Old Testament as Protestant, While as you say, the New Testament completes the Old, the Old Testament predicts the new. The reason they are both included in the official canon, is that they are inseparable in understanding the fullness of God’s plan.

You simply can’t fully understand the new testament without understanding the old. For instance, many people including most Catholics don’t know why Jesus called out from the cross “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” Without the Old Testament we can only assume that he felt abandoned by God, (which many Protestants believe) but rather, by quoting the opening stanza of the 22nd Psalm, he was letting those around the cross know that as bad as it seemed right now, everything was going to turn out fine and they should all take solace in the Lord. (I’ll leave you to look up the entire psalm whose first part we always recite or sing on Palm Sunday) Take not of the conclusion!

There are many Old Testament passages quoted by Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament that many aren’t aware are quotes or where they appear.

Any study of the New Testament REQUIRES an understanding of the old for proper interpretation.

Thank God He gave us the Magisterium!

On the note of Protestants being more comfortable in the Old Testament, what better place for you to study Catholic Apologetics and evangelize than in the place where your listener is most comfortable?
 
The Latin Vulgate and the Douay Bible in English.👍
I should have been more clear, something like a study Bible? I have a PDF of the Haydock Bible, but a physical copy is outside of my budget for the time being (unless someone will sell me a used copy:)
 
Don’t discount the Old Testament as Protestant, While as you say, the New Testament completes the Old, the Old Testament predicts the new. The reason they are both included in the official canon, is that they are inseparable in understanding the fullness of God’s plan.

You simply can’t fully understand the new testament without understanding the old. For instance, many people including most Catholics don’t know why Jesus called out from the cross “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” Without the Old Testament we can only assume that he felt abandoned by God, (which many Protestants believe) but rather, by quoting the opening stanza of the 22nd Psalm, he was letting those around the cross know that as bad as it seemed right now, everything was going to turn out fine and they should all take solace in the Lord. (I’ll leave you to look up the entire psalm whose first part we always recite or sing on Palm Sunday) Take not of the conclusion!

There are many Old Testament passages quoted by Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament that many aren’t aware are quotes or where they appear.

Any study of the New Testament REQUIRES an understanding of the old for proper interpretation.

Thank God He gave us the Magisterium!

On the note of Protestants being more comfortable in the Old Testament, what better place for you to study Catholic Apologetics and evangelize than in the place where your listener is most comfortable?
My friend, you would do well to reread post #22

Other than that, it’s a great post:thumbsup:

What you calim as my position is NOT:D
 
My friend, you would do well to reread post #22

Other than that, it’s a great post:thumbsup:

What you calim as my position is NOT:D
I apologize, I didn’t mean to “correct” your position, actually more to clarify it. We are actually pretty much of a same mind. However, as a converted ex-protestant I am constantly aware of the biblical misunderstanding of many protestants and I find that to put any less value on one book over the other is generally a great mistake of omission of the full value of the complete texts.
I generally steer away from [emphasis added] BUT do not avoid the OT; because I find that a great many Protestants are more in their “comfort-zone” there, than in the NT
Peace Brother!
 
As Jesus wrote nothing but established His Church with Peter specifically to lead Her, guaranteeing that “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven” (Mt 16:19), [Later to the Twelve, also], we have the Sacred Scriptures defined as the Word of God only on the authority of Christ’s Catholic Church, comprising 73 Books , no more and no less.

Only Christ’s Catholic Church can correctly interpret Her Sacred Scriptures.
No. Absolutely 100% false. This is trimphalism.

Anyone can correctly interpret scripture. We check our interpretation against Church teaching, writings of the Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church, encyclicals and against the living history of our faith however. If nothing contradicts then we are free to believe.

The Magisterium - teaching office - of the Church protects and guards the faith against error. The Church herself says that she has received scripture as a gift and is it’s steward, that the Church serves scripture, not the other way around. Apart from dogma, the Magisterium does not prohibit us from drawing our own conclusions about what we read.

The claim that I cannot open up the Bible and come to some understanding on my own is absolutely incorrect. Why even allow the Bible to be in private hands if we are not allowed to draw our own conclusions?

-Tim-
 
It is my understanding that yes, anyone can interpret Scripture, but by no means does that mean that one can interpret Scripture correctly. martin Luther taught that anyone can interpret Scripture correctly, yes we know that the majority of Protestant denomanations each make the claim to interpret Scripture different from each other. Catholic’s base their interpretations from what the Magisterium teaches so that one does not fall into error in their understanding of Scripture and what it says and means. The Catholic Church remains silent on the majority of Scripture until such time as something in Scripture is questioned and contested and taught different from what the Church teaches… Otherwise the catholic Church would have everyone interpreting according to what they think teaching the Church instead of the Church teaching them.
 
TimothyH #26
Originally Posted by Abu
Only Christ’s Catholic Church can correctly interpret Her Sacred Scriptures.
No. Absolutely 100% false. This is trimphalism.
False. This is foundational and should be known.

“The same Church that authenticates the Bible, that establishes its inspiration, is the authority set up by Christ to interpret His Word.”
Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, Ignatius press, 1988, p 133].

Catholic Apologetics Online
Questions and answers on Catholicism and Protestantism
“591.What special qualifications has the Catholic Church in the Interpretation of Scripture?
The Gospels are really the family papers of the Catholic Church, and she alone, possessing the family traditions, can interpret what those family papers really mean.

Whilst many Protestant leaders are prepared to sacrifice the Bible in order to appear scientific and modern, the Catholic Church consistently demands that every jot and tittle of God’s Word must be accepted in the original sense intended by God. 4. The Protestant Churches owe their separate existences to the fact that each denies that the others really know what Scripture means. 5. The Catholic Church was established by Christ as the rule of faith, and He declared that a man is to be regarded as a heathen if he will not hear the Church. The Catholic Church is the only qualified interpreter of Scripture.” [My emphasis]
[Fathers Rumble and Carty]
radioreplies.info/site-search.php?q=Interpretation+of+Scripture&db=1
 
Catholics are just as prone as Protestants to superficial interpretations so it’s essential to back this up with solid teaching. My friends used Leon-Dufour and had an extra weekly sermon and an additional monthly one, on top of the usual, plus a couple of solid days Scripture-based teaching every couple of years.

Meantime it’s quite a turn-up to have people curious about Scriptures at all I can assure you! 👍
 
False. This is foundational and should be known.

“The same Church that authenticates the Bible, that establishes its inspiration, is the authority set up by Christ to interpret His Word.”
Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, Ignatius press, 1988, p 133].

Catholic Apologetics Online
Questions and answers on Catholicism and Protestantism
“591.What special qualifications has the Catholic Church in the Interpretation of Scripture?
The Gospels are really the family papers of the Catholic Church, and she alone, possessing the family traditions, can interpret what those family papers really mean.

Whilst many Protestant leaders are prepared to sacrifice the Bible in order to appear scientific and modern, the Catholic Church consistently demands that every jot and tittle of God’s Word must be accepted in the original sense intended by God. 4. The Protestant Churches owe their separate existences to the fact that each denies that the others really know what Scripture means. 5. The Catholic Church was established by Christ as the rule of faith, and He declared that a man is to be regarded as a heathen if he will not hear the Church. The Catholic Church is the only qualified interpreter of Scripture.” [My emphasis]
[Fathers Rumble and Carty]
radioreplies.info/site-search.php?q=Interpretation+of+Scripture&db=1
Actually the Church offers guidelines on how readers are to interpret Scripture. Although any interpretation of the Church is the last word, which all believers should test their interpretations against and align their own with, this doesn’t mean that we don’t interpret. And few verses have even been officially interpreted by the Church to begin with. Mainly our own interpretations can never be at odds with Catholic doctrine.

**III. THE HOLY SPIRIT, INTERPRETER OF SCRIPTURE

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78

112 1. Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”. Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God’s plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79
The phrase “heart of Christ” can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80

113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By “analogy of faith” we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.
**
 
I apologize, I didn’t mean to “correct” your position, actually more to clarify it. We are actually pretty much of a same mind. However, as a converted ex-protestant I am constantly aware of the biblical misunderstanding of many protestants and I find that to put any less value on one book over the other is generally a great mistake of omission of the full value of the complete texts.

Peace Brother!
AMEN!

GOD CONTINUED BLESSINGS BROTHER!👍
 
Some times I have to blush because of the fact that I find simple and forgotten truth-verses, which I ignored because I forgot to read my Bible.
On the one hand the Bible in the hands of Protestants will be the same for the readers, on the other hand it must be read of course.
It is necessary to be patient and focus on creative and exhortatory, and ignoring the difficult passages.
Of course you can not ignore the pressing issues but still the gathered should know that in this dialogue must be unity in differences.
 
Athanasiy #32
On the one hand the Bible in the hands of Protestants will be the same for the readers
Factually, it isn’t and cannot be because there are thousands of different sects all teaching something different.

That is because Jesus gave us His Catholic Church, not the Bible, and only She has collected and authorised the Sacred Scriptures, which cannot be interpreted to suit whims and fancies.
Of course you can not ignore the pressing issues but still the gathered should know that in this dialogue must be unity in differences.
There isn’t, and cannot be, “unity in differences” precisely because Christ’s own Catholic Church has been jettisoned for a do-it-yourself interpretation, ignoring Jesus own Church and the prayer of Jesus “that they may be one as We are.” [Jn 17:11].
 
Factually, it isn’t and cannot be because there are thousands of different sects all teaching something different.

That is because Jesus gave us His Catholic Church, not the Bible, and only She has collected and authorised the Sacred Scriptures, which cannot be interpreted to suit whims and fancies.

There isn’t, and cannot be, “unity in differences” precisely because Christ’s own Catholic Church has been jettisoned for a do-it-yourself interpretation, ignoring Jesus own Church and the prayer of Jesus “that they may be one as We are.” [Jn 17:11].
It all depends on the atmosphere of the meeting.
It depends also how many there ‘‘passionate to debate’’, ‘’ passionate to prove’’ Protestants.
It is also probably dependent on the religious atmosphere of the region.
In some parts of Latin America, the Catholics and Charismatics get along very well.
In other regions of North America probably has regions where Militant-Protestants are anti-Catholics.
 
I just began attending my first ever group bible study at my (Edited) parish. There is gospel reading and discussion. After a couple of sessions I am getting the feeling that some members of the group are gravitating toward a more protestant understanding of the role the Bible plays in our Catholic tradition. Am I reading too much into this, or is there potential danger of our Bible study groups becoming crypto-evangelicals? If so, is this a problem?
Possibly. However, it can be avoided if we realize that for Catholics, the Church existed before Scripture, and that the Church wrote Scripture. The People of God come first, and then from the People of God, comes Scripture. (I say People of God because the idea applies to the Old Testament as well.) Scripture was written by, to, and for the already existing Church, the ecclesia.

It seems that for most Protestants, they start with Scripture (that is, they simply assume Scripture), and from Scripture, derive their church. Church is secondary to Scripture. For the Catholic, it is the other way around. We assume Church, which is primary, and from Church derive Scripture. We can see that is the way it happened historically (which has already been pointed out in this thread). For Catholics, Jesus established His Church, taught the apostles, and the apostles in turn taught the people. In doing so, the apostles and evangelists also did some writing. These writings, which we call the New Testament, were later brought together by the Church and determined by the Church to have been inspired, and then included in the canon, or measure, of Scripture.

Notice that the Church was around for decades, centuries, teaching and evangelizing, without an integrated body of Scripture to derive doctrine from. That’s because the Church had its doctrine already, not just from Scripture, but from the direct teachings of the apostles! (See Galatians 1-8,9)

Another way to think of it is by way of context. As we know, verses of the Bible should be read in context. The surrounding verses affect the meaning of any individual verse. Taken out of context, a verse may be misunderstood. It is the same with Scripture as a whole. Scripture itself has a context. And when taken out of context, Scripture can be misunderstood. Of course we know that the context of Scripture is the Church, and when Scripture is read out of the context of Church, Scripture is misunderstood. That is evidenced by the thousands of denominations that have arisen by taking Scripture away from where it belongs, out of its context.

Taking the idea of context further, by looking at history, we see that Scripture was not meant to be read, but heard. It was an aural experience. And a collective one. Individuals did not have scrolls of Scripture, nor most likely could they read them anyway. So, to know scripture, believers had to gather together (once a week) to have scripture read to them, in the church, or in the synagogue. They heard the word of God. Their context was hearing it amongst the rest of the congregation, as a group. (Not like reading a Gideon bible in the loneliness of a motel room!)

You can see how the God-given, God-intended, way is so different from the Protestant view of the role of Scripture.

With these ideas in mind, perhaps the danger of lapsing into a non-Catholic view of how Scripture is to be used can be avoided.
 
v21337304 #5
People who maintain sola scipta, will find a lot of touble over certain concepts of the catholic faith, To give an example, there is nowhere in the bible that says Our Lady was immaculate conceived
False.

“Full of grace” is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Karl Keating remarks that these newer translations, based on the Greek, "are imperfect since they give the impression that the favour bestowed on Mary was no different from that given other women in the Bible…indistinguishable from the status of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist; or Sarah, the wife of Abraham; or Anna, the mother of Samuel * all of whom, by the way, were long childless and were ‘highly favoured’ because God acceded to their pleas to bear children.”

Karl Keating says that the older translations convey that this grace is permanent and of a singular kind in keeping with the Greek which indicates a perfection of grace, and which is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches. He stresses that the sense of the Greek kecharitomene is not just “to look upon with favour, but to transform by this favour or grace.” (From René Laurentin).

Convert from Evangelicalism, ex-Pastor David B Currie, in his book Born *Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic *thinks that St Jerome “probably did the best job of translating this passage so many centuries ago. He translated it as ‘Hail, full of grace’. The important point to notice is that Mary is not addressed by Gabriel as ‘Mary’. She is addressed as ‘full of grace’, as though that were her name. When we unpack the Greek meaning of these words, Gabriel called Mary ‘The One Most Full of God’s Gracious Gift of His Life in All Time’.”
 
False.

“Full of grace” is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Karl Keating remarks that these newer translations, based on the Greek, "are imperfect since they give the impression that the favour bestowed on Mary was no different from that given other women in the Bible…indistinguishable from the status of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist; or Sarah, the wife of Abraham; or Anna, the mother of Samuel * all of whom, by the way, were long childless and were ‘highly favoured’ because God acceded to their pleas to bear children.”

Karl Keating says that the older translations convey that this grace is permanent and of a singular kind in keeping with the Greek which indicates a perfection of grace, and which is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches. He stresses that the sense of the Greek kecharitomene is not just “to look upon with favour, but to transform by this favour or grace.” (From René Laurentin).

Convert from Evangelicalism, ex-Pastor David B Currie, in his book Born *Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic *thinks that St Jerome “probably did the best job of translating this passage so many centuries ago. He translated it as ‘Hail, full of grace’. The important point to notice is that Mary is not addressed by Gabriel as ‘Mary’. She is addressed as ‘full of grace’, as though that were her name. When we unpack the Greek meaning of these words, Gabriel called Mary ‘The One Most Full of God’s Gracious Gift of His Life in All Time’.”
To be fair, technically Mary can be full of grace and yet not be immaculately conceived. She could have been filled at a later stage. But I could be wrong. I don’t read Greek.
 
Ericc #38
To be fair, technically Mary can be full of grace and yet not be immaculately conceived. She could have been filled at a later stage. But I could be wrong
It is the solemn teaching of the Church:
That Mary was conceived without Original Sin. [DS 2803].
Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, The Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 376]

Two papal dogmas are infallible – The dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, and the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.
 
It is the solemn teaching of the Church:
That Mary was conceived without Original Sin. [DS 2803].
Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, The Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 376]

Two papal dogmas are infallible – The dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, and the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.
But the argument here has been about Scriptural support, which is admittedly sketchy- and this is one reason why the magisterium is so important in fact.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top