Bible study and sola scriptura

[ericc]

It is the solemn teaching of the Church:
That Mary was conceived without Original Sin. [DS 2803].
Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, The Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 376]

Two papal dogmas are infallible – The dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, and the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Of course but our non-catholic brothers don’t subscribed to that. We need to use the same medium to communicate which they have unfortunately restrict to the Bible, only.

But if the Greek were to say that the full of grace starts at her birth, we would have the scriptural support. As it is , I know nothing about Greek.

 

[Abu]

ericc #41
Of course but our non-catholic brothers don’t subscribed to that. We need to use the same medium to communicate which they have unfortunately restrict to the Bible, only.

It is just not good enough to assume that that “medium” arose by itself out of thin air.

That is precisely why we have to express the truth that the only reason that there is a Bible is because Christ’s Catholic Church created it and guaranteed its truths. Christ gave us His Catholic Church NOT the Bible.

But if the Greek were to say that the full of grace starts at her birth, we would have the scriptural support. As it is , I know nothing about Greek.

We don’t need to know Greek – the great apologist Karl Keating says that the older translations convey that this grace is permanent and of a singular kind in keeping with the Greek which indicates a perfection of grace, and which is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches. He stresses that the sense of the Greek kecharitomene is not just “to look upon with favour, but to transform by this favour or grace.” (From René Laurentin).

 

[mackbrislawn]

The previous poster said that God gave us the Catholic Church NOT the Bible.

This is a very good point. God gave us the Catholic Church and the Church in turn wrote Christian Scripture under God’s guidance. Members of the Catholic Church wrote the New Testament by, for, and to members of the Catholic Church.

This would seem to imply that if you are not a member of the Catholic Church, the Bible is not written directly to you. You have to be a member and acquainted with Her teachings for Scripture to be understood properly. Ignorant people are highly likely to twist and misinterpret Scripture. See 2Peter 2:15,16. And Galatians 1:6-9.

 

[PJM]

Don’t discount the Old Testament as Protestant, While as you say, the New Testament completes the Old, the Old Testament predicts the new. The reason they are both included in the official canon, is that they are inseparable in understanding the fullness of God’s plan.

You simply can’t fully understand the new testament without understanding the old. For instance, many people including most Catholics don’t know why Jesus called out from the cross “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” Without the Old Testament we can only assume that he felt abandoned by God, (which many Protestants believe) but rather, by quoting the opening stanza of the 22nd Psalm, he was letting those around the cross know that as bad as it seemed right now, everything was going to turn out fine and they should all take solace in the Lord. (I’ll leave you to look up the entire psalm whose first part we always recite or sing on Palm Sunday) Take not of the conclusion!

There are many Old Testament passages quoted by Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament that many aren’t aware are quotes or where they appear.

Any study of the New Testament REQUIRES an understanding of the old for proper interpretation.

Thank God He gave us the Magisterium!

On the note of Protestants being more comfortable in the Old Testament, what better place for you to study Catholic Apologetics and evangelize than in the place where your listener is most comfortable?

Don’t discount the Old Testament as Protestant

While as you say, the New Testament completes the Old, the Old Testament predicts the new. The reason they are both included in the official canon, is that they are inseparable in understanding the fullness of God’s plan

Thank you for adding the WORD “fullness”. However I don’t ever recall my self-expressing your opening position. I have never even implied such a position.

You simply can’t fully understand the new testament without understanding the old. For instance, many people including most Catholics don’t know why Jesus called out from the cross “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” Without the Old Testament we can only assume that he felt abandoned by God, (which many Protestants believe) but rather, by quoting the opening stanza of the 22nd Psalm, he was letting those around the cross know that as bad as it seemed right now, everything was going to turn out fine and they should all take solace in the Lord. (I’ll leave you to look up the entire psalm whose first part we always recite or sing on Palm Sunday) Take not of the conclusion!

There are many Old Testament passages quoted by Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament that many aren’t aware are quotes or where they appear.

Any study of the New Testament REQUIRES an understanding of the old for proper interpretation.

Thank God He gave us the Magisterium!

While certainly agreeing that in reading the bible:

1. The ENTIRE Bible ought to be prayerfully read
2. I maintain that Post Resurrection Salvation history is found in the NT
3. Further, the NT fulfills, completes, perfects the OT

On the note of Protestants being more comfortable in the Old Testament, what better place for you to study Catholic Apologetics and evangelize than in the place where your listener is most comfortable

Thank you for noting the Protestant emphasis on the OT. WHY do you suppose that is my friend?
It is precisely because Jesus was shockingly clear and precise on His intent to establish precisely and only what He set out to do {based, or founded on a continuation of OT Tradition of always only:
One True God {the 1st Commandment}
One Set of Faith beliefs {Eph. 4:1-7}
One Chosen People; which Jesus terms “MY CHURCH” Mt 16:18; John 17:17-20 & Mt 28:19-20 as evidence of this fact.

1. One need not be an Exegetist to grasp the New-Covenant-Faith {Eph 4:1-7 & Mt 28:19-20} that Jesus desired replace that of the OT Chosen people; and hence instituted an entirely NEW hierarchy to introduce and teach this New {overriding but not voiding the OT Covenants} set of Faith beliefs that we can term the Process for NT Salvation that is God approved.
2. I completely agree that it is BEST to read and be familiar with the ENTIRE bible; that said I still maintain for novice bible readers, to begin with the NT, so that the OT makes far more sense.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[michaelhager]

PJM…

I think we’re pretty much in agreement over all. The fact that as a Protestant I was taught many of the Old Testament stories that our Catholic youth seem to be quite ignorant of today, was a great help in comprehending the relationship of the Old Testament to the New and the value of the Old Testament as the buildup of the completion of God’s covenants in the New Testament.

The fact is, neither subset of biblical texts is complete without the other. It has been a source of wonder to me that I can tell you the basics of nearly all the Old Testament bible stories; Moses and the Red Sea, the Ten Commandments, Jonah and the Whale, Sampson and Delila, David and Goliath, Joseph and the coat of many colors, and on and on, but I was never to my recollection taught the significance of those stories in the context of their connection to the New Testament.

What I learned of the New Testament was simply that Jesus Saves, Accept him and be saved, Love your neighbor, be good, and kind, help others.

It wasn’t until I began to study the Bible through the lens of the Early Church Fathers, and the teachings of the Catholic Church that it was all put together as an amazing whole truth of God’s plan for us.

Yes, the New Testament is a great place to start. Learn first about Jesus and His sacrifice for us, but then study the Old Testament and really learn WHY this is important.

 

[PJM]

PJM…

I think we’re pretty much in agreement over all. The fact that as a Protestant I was taught many of the Old Testament stories that our Catholic youth seem to be quite ignorant of today, was a great help in comprehending the relationship of the Old Testament to the New and the value of the Old Testament as the buildup of the completion of God’s covenants in the New Testament.

The fact is, neither subset of biblical texts is complete without the other. It has been a source of wonder to me that I can tell you the basics of nearly all the Old Testament bible stories; Moses and the Red Sea, the Ten Commandments, Jonah and the Whale, Sampson and Delila, David and Goliath, Joseph and the coat of many colors, and on and on, but I was never to my recollection taught the significance of those stories in the context of their connection to the New Testament.

What I learned of the New Testament was simply that Jesus Saves, Accept him and be saved, Love your neighbor, be good, and kind, help others.

It wasn’t until I began to study the Bible through the lens of the Early Church Fathers, and the teachings of the Catholic Church that it was all put together as an amazing whole truth of God’s plan for us.

Yes, the New Testament is a great place to start. Learn first about Jesus and His sacrifice for us, but then study the Old Testament and really learn WHY this is important.

Well done my friend Michael, thank you

God Bless,

Patrick

 

[michaelhager]

Actually there is theological support for that. But that would be for another thread.

Try this link to a PowerPoint I used in a teaching to our Men’s Bible Study group. Bible Teachings about Mary

 

[PJM]

Try this link to a PowerPoint I used in a teaching to our Men’s Bible Study group. Bible Teachings about Mary

GREAT SITE, thanks:thumbsup:

 

[spina1953]

I just wanted to say that as a craddle Catholic from a long time ago, in catholic grade school we read and learned many of the OT sories, which in turn helped us to understand better the NT. I agree that it seems that in this day and age Catholic youths are not being taught as well as in times past. Michaelhager andPJM have it down pat!

 

[PJM]

I just wanted to say that as a craddle Catholic from a long time ago, in catholic grade school we read and learned many of the OT sories, which in turn helped us to understand better the NT. I agree that it seems that in this day and age Catholic youths are not being taught as well as in times past. Michaelhager andPJM have it down pat!

Thank you & Continued Blessings,

PJM

 

[TCEL]

I once heard on EWTN that only catholics consider Mary as “all generations shall call me blessed”. They give no importance to the Manificat.

A little off-topic, but my husband is an exception. He didn’t know his Bible super well as a Protestant, so he was surprised when I pointed out that verse to him. He didn’t know it was in there, and he said it made a big impact on him.

 

[Lnam22]

Factually, it isn’t and cannot be because there are thousands of different sects all teaching something different.

There is no difference between the sects that differ, and the members of the Catholic Church who also differ. Today, there is no authority except the Holy Spirit Who wrote the scripture, and the scriptures themselves. So our only recourse can be to go to the scripture and seek guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church removes itself from consideration as authoritative by the fact it is in opposition to the doctries Paul received from Christ only. The 12 apostles did not teach Gentiles but only Israel.

That is because Jesus gave us His Catholic Church, not the Bible, and only She has collected and authorised the Sacred Scriptures, which cannot be interpreted to suit whims and fancies

As I said above, the Catholic church has no authority to claim it is before the bible, since it disagrees with what the bible contains…

It is the solemn teaching of the Church:
That Mary was conceived without Original Sin. [DS 2803].
Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, The Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 376]
Two papal dogmas are infallible – The dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, and the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

On the basis of “conceived without original sin” God could have done the same with the children of our first parents and none of us would be sinners and the death, burial and resurrection of God’s beloved Son would not have had to occur. Mary was as everyone else and needed to be saved as do we.

 

[spina1953]

Hi Lnam 22, I have to disagree with your statement for the most part aside from the statement of many different sects all interpreting Scripture according to their own understanding. That said It seems to me from reading much history of the early Christianity the Catholic Church has prized the Scriptures as one of the major sources of her faith. Scriptures [Bible] has never been optional for the Church, but has been an indispensable aid in understanding and celebrating her faith. After the invention of the printing press the Church suffered through some dark times. This had the effect on the Church’s attitude toward Scripture. The Bible was used as a weapon by Christian against Christian, each arguing that his own particular interpretation of the Bible’s words was the only correct meaning.

 This issue of interpretation is a key one because there is a difference between what Scripture says and what Scripture means. To read is to interpret, and many individuals interpret Scripture in a way that is contrary to what the Church taught at a particular time Scripture then became a source of division instead of unity 

One thing one I think remember is that with few exceptions, many of the writers of what we now consider sacred Scripture of the Old and New Testaments did not think of themselves as inspired writers. They were member of the communities in which they lived or traveled to and from and their oral and written writings were an expression of those communities in action. it was a process of listening to God's word in history and in the religious experience of the nation, of reflecting on that word, of telling the story, and of handing on the message to later generations of the community

   It was to the Catholic Church to decide which books and writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit and guided by the same Holy Spirit compiled what is now the Bible;books containing  that which is inspired by the Holy Spirit and so it is to the Catholic Church herself to decide what Scripture says and means. Sure anyone can read and interpret Scripture and claim they are being guided by the Holy Spirit but the truth is no one really knows for sure if they really are being guided by the Holy Spirit, but one thing is a fact, and that is the Catholic Church has always relied on the Holy Spirit when it comes to faith and morals and has never changed what had been revealed to her from Christ and the Apostles.

 

[Abu]

Lnam22 #52
Today, there is no authority except the Holy Spirit Who wrote the scripture, and the scriptures themselves. So our only recourse can be to go to the scripture and seek guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church removes itself from consideration as authoritative by the fact it is in opposition to the doctries Paul received from Christ only. The 12 apostles did not teach Gentiles but only Israel.

Perhaps your grave errors arise from a poor knowledge of the Sacred Scriptures which books you have only because the Catholic Church decreed which books make up the Sacred Scriptures.

As to only teaching Gentiles, try listening to Christ Himself:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build MY Church.” (Mt 16:18)

Jesus, having given His authority to St Peter, confirmed: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15).

**"All power in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And, behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” **(Mt 28: 18-20).

Jesus is not supporting the multitudinous errors of others, here, but guaranteeing His truths in His Church for all time, for the whole world.

Jesus warned dissenters: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).

 

[PJM]

=Lnam22;13723810=Abu;13635085]Factually, it isn’t and cannot be because there are thousands of different sects all teaching something different.
There is no difference between the sects that differ, and the members of the Catholic Church who also differ. Today, there is no authority except the Holy Spirit Who wrote the scripture, and the scriptures themselves. So our only recourse can be to go to the scripture and seek guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church removes itself from consideration as authoritative by the fact it is in opposition to the doctries Paul received from Christ only. The 12 apostles did not teach Gentiles but only Israel.

That is because Jesus gave us His Catholic Church, not the Bible, and only She has collected and authorised the Sacred Scriptures, which cannot be interpreted to suit whims and fancies

On the basis of “conceived without original sin” God could have done the same with the children of our first parents and none of us would be sinners and the death, burial and resurrection of God’s beloved Son would not have had to occur. Mary was as everyone else and needed to be saved as do we.

The Catholic Church removes itself from consideration as authoritative by the fact it is in opposition to the doctrines Paul received from Christ only. The 12 apostles did not teach Gentiles but only Israel

1st my friend WELCOME TO CAF:thumbsup:

2nd the color you choose while beautiful is VERY difficult to read & BOLD IT

3td. We live only a few miles apart: I live in Edgewater

4th While I am open to ALL opinions; I AM So, ONLY when supported by FACTS; which are missing from your post.

It is for example HISTORICAL FACT that today’s Catholic Church “birthed” the bible; meaning that it was the Early Catholics [BECAUSE NO OTHER CHRISTIAN FAITH EVEN EXISTED UNTIL THE GREAT EASTERN SCHISM OF 1054 AD]; & it was the first Catholics The APOSTLES} who along with a few of their first “students” that AUTHORED the ENTIRE New Testament {I’m NOT shouting here;; only adding emphasis for the sake of clarity}

The BIBLE came from the Catholic Church; NOT the RCC from the bible:thumbsup:
As far as your views of bible self interpretation and guidance from the Holy Spirit; how;s that working out is reality? There are numerous Christian faiths, EACH having it;s own “understanding” of just what the Bible teaches. So is the HS TEACHING different “truths” or is just one of the many Protestant churches & .correct & the rest are in error?

As to your claim that their is “NO DIFFERENCE” between the sects:shrug:
THEN perhaps you can explain WHY they exist if their are no “differences” between them?
5th. As for

The Catholic Church removes itself from consideration as authoritative by the fact it is in opposition to the doctries Paul received from Christ only. The 12 apostles did not teach Gentiles but only Israel

Mt. 10: 5-6

[5] These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not.[6] But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Which IS OVERRIDDEN BY Mt 28:19-20
[19] “Going therefore, teach YOU all nations;{the ENTIRE WORLD} baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

Jn 17:17-20
[17] “Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19] And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me”

6th

As I said above, the Catholic church has no authority to claim it is before the bible, since it disagrees with what the bible contain

“Authority”

We have the FACTS;

Jesus Dies in AD 30-36 time period

the BIBLE was NOT fully authored until the END of the 1st Century or VERY early 2nd Century. Therefore without THEE Catholic Church there WOULD NOT be a bible; which FYI, the NT was FULLY authored by the early Catholics who were the ONLY Christians in existence anywhere in the world WHEN the Bible was historically authored & assembled. And it WAS today’s CC that determined the “Canon” of the bible in the early 4th Century.

7th If you’d care to dispute this with FACTS, I and no doubt many others will be happy to engage you in a dialog:thumbsup:

8th

On the basis of “conceived without original sin” God could have done the same with the children of our first parents and none of us would be sinners and the death, burial and resurrection of God’s beloved Son would not have had to occur. Mary was as everyone else and needed to be saved as do we.

Actually NOT. Such an action would have required GOD to ignore His necessary Divine Justice; which even GOD cannot do in this instance. Man is given a mind, intellect and FREEWILL so that We CAN choose. Actions have consequences.

SPACE is limited on this FORUM so if you’d like further facts send me a private message

God Bless you,

 

[Church_Militant]

There is no difference between the sects that differ, and the members of the Catholic Church who also differ. Today, there is no authority except the Holy Spirit Who wrote the scripture, and the scriptures themselves.

This is your opinion…or perhaps what you have been taught by someone else, but you cannot support this from the Word of God because the Bible nowhere says that, but please feel free to offer whatever scriptures you think do.

So our only recourse can be to go to the scripture and seek guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Again, in your opinion, which (again) has no basis in the Word of God but you are welcome to try.

The Catholic Church removes itself from consideration as authoritative by the fact it is in opposition to the doctries Paul received from Christ only.

This of course is complete anti-Catholic rubbish though pretty commonly offered by misguided non-Catholics who neither know the scriptures nor the authentic teachings of our Catholic faith. As I told you in my thread on SS. You prove the wisdom of Bishop Fulton J. Sheen when he said,

There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church - which is, of course, quite a different thing.

The 12 apostles did not teach Gentiles but only Israel.

Irrelevant and grossly historically ignorant since the Apostle Thomas was martyred in India and is only one of the apostolic examples. Regardless…it disproves your assertion…

The fact is that all the apostles preached the Gospel to everyone. St. Luke was not an apostle and in fact was a Gentile yet they preached to him and he traveled with both Peter and Paul and we have his inspired writings as canon of the New Testament so clearly you have been misled.

As I said above, the Catholic church has no authority to claim it is before the bible, since it disagrees with what the bible contains…

Saying it twice doesn’t make it less inaccurate. But if you wish to make your case for these supposed teachings that are unbiblical then by all means come over into Apologetics and open a thread where you can show us the error of our ways. We will be happy to school you on both the Word of God and authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching and even offer you the invitation to convert.

On the basis of “conceived without original sin” God could have done the same with the children of our first parents and none of us would be sinners and the death, burial and resurrection of God’s beloved Son would not have had to occur. Mary was as everyone else and needed to be saved as do we.

God could and can do exactly anything that He pleases, and He did exactly that in the case of the Blessed Virgin Mary and you need to remember that these forums function on a one topic per thread policy and so Mary is not relevant to this discussion. Just by way of information, I will suggest that you check out the following links on Mary before having anything further to say to us about her.
Mary: “Full of Grace”
Immaculate Conception and Assumption
The Immaculate Conception in Scripture
Mary: Mother of God

 

[Pedro_1987]

Sola scriptura makes zero sense. Trust this book, but not the organization that made the book.

Infallible writings do not come from fallible churches. If the Catholic Church is fallible, then so is the Bible.

 

[michaelhager]

Sola scriptura makes zero sense. Trust this book, but not the organization that made the book.

Infallible writings do not come from fallible churches. If the Catholic Church is fallible, then so is the Bible.

Exactly!

Let us consider this quote: “There is nothing in the Bible that is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church and there is nothing in the teachings of the church that is contrary to anything in the Bible.”

Now, from the complete content of the Bible, and from the Catechism and magisterial documents, prove this to be false!

 

[PJM]

PJM…

I think we’re pretty much in agreement over all. The fact that as a Protestant I was taught many of the Old Testament stories that our Catholic youth seem to be quite ignorant of today, was a great help in comprehending the relationship of the Old Testament to the New and the value of the Old Testament as the buildup of the completion of God’s covenants in the New Testament.

The fact is, neither subset of biblical texts is complete without the other. It has been a source of wonder to me that I can tell you the basics of nearly all the Old Testament bible stories; Moses and the Red Sea, the Ten Commandments, Jonah and the Whale, Sampson and Delila, David and Goliath, Joseph and the coat of many colors, and on and on, but I was never to my recollection taught the significance of those stories in the context of their connection to the New Testament.

What I learned of the New Testament was simply that Jesus Saves, Accept him and be saved, Love your neighbor, be good, and kind, help others.

It wasn’t until I began to study the Bible through the lens of the Early Church Fathers, and the teachings of the Catholic Church that it was all put together as an amazing whole truth of God’s plan for us.

Yes, the New Testament is a great place to start. Learn first about Jesus and His sacrifice for us, but then study the Old Testament and really learn WHY this is important.

VERY WELL stated

BTW:

As a FYI: You can include either the entire post or any part of the POST by

in front of of it **

at the end of it **

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[michaelhager]

BTW:

As a FYI: You can include either the entire post or any part of the POST by

in front of of it **

God Bless you,
Patrick**

Ummm… ok, knew that… did I do something odd?