Bible verse saying a fetus isn't a human until three months

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Don’t you just love it…

If a non-Catholic asks me a question about scripture that I can’t readily answer they won’t accept “it’s someplace in the bible”, I need to give them chapter and verse.

It seems that pro-choice people are always vague about the bible because there is absolutely nothing in it that supports their position. Please ask them for the scripute passage that makes killing a fetus between conception and 3 months OK.

Iowa Mike
 
Hi fuzzybunny the pro abortionist crowd uses a text about census tax collection, to say that a child less than an month is not counted as being human,
“In Leviticus 27:6 a monetary value was placed on children, but not until they reached one month old (any younger had no value). Likewise, in Numbers 3:15 a census was commanded, but the Jews were told only to count those one month old and above - anything less, particularly a fetus, was not counted as a human person.” Since there is no more here about what is defined as a “person” than elsewhere, it means no such thing; no more so would it allow infanticide of those under a month old. Elroy forgets to mention that Lev. 27 has to do with dedicating persons to the service of the Lord, and Numbers 3 has to do with assessing for redemption money (3:49) which would support the Levites. You can’t dedicate a child to service before it is born (since that involved serving and living at the sanctuary – cf. 1 Sam. 1:21; note that there was also some flexibility in this), and you don’t need to collect taxes to support the unborn (and given the high rate of infant mortality in ancient times, with at least a third of children dying before they reached the age of 6, it would be rather crass and hurtful to collect on a baby that might not survive). The site of a contact of ours adds: “Monetary value was placed on human beings in Leviticus 27 based on the person’s ability to perform work for the tabernacle. Since children (and the elderly) are not capable of performing the same tasks as adults, it is clear why they should not be valued as highly for this type of offering. Males between the ages of 20 and 60 were valued the highest simply because of their greater abilities.” Elroy has a lot of nerve delivering accusations of reading out of context when he won’t even look into the basic background data.
tektonics.org/af/abortion01.html
elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html
 
… Also Aquinas speculated on “ensoulment” at two different points for male and female babies.
Mercygate,
I also thought of Aquinas. I tried to find the passage in his Summa but haven’t had any luck. Do you happen to know where it is? (He often cites Scripture to support his view.)

Thanks to anyone who can help.

Nita
 
Mercygate,
I also thought of Aquinas. I tried to find the passage in his Summa but haven’t had any luck. Do you happen to know where it is? (He often cites Scripture to support his view.)

Thanks to anyone who can help.

Nita
Sorry. I’ve seen it cited on these forums though. The Summa is available on line through New Advent. Try that.
 
As soon as a sperm fertilieses the ova there is life and that’s it, End of argument.
This applies to all living creatures being animals or humans, that is why abortion is murder because it is the taking of human life.
 
I believe there are 2 approaches

In interpreting a person, starting with a fetus- the true human as created by God- first with Genesis, then with other verses, each of us was counted as an unique man/woman

The culture however looked at the economical value of the person and many new set of laws created for those purposes in Lev. and Deut. Wives and children were considered properties of the baal/the lord/the master actually the husbands.

There were then many different ways in numbering the 9th Commandment. The Catholic view seemed the perfect one in separating the 9th and the 10th while other people thinking of interpreting the Bible based on history and economics, claimed that the9th and the 10th was only one.

Some people believed St Joseph wanted to divorce Mary. I like to point out that St. Joseph, after accepting the order of the Lord has celebrated the engagement ceremony but then in a great fear while looking at himself, a humble man he could not think of becoming the baal/the master/the lord/the husband of the Blessed Mother and he could never think of being called by The Lord Jesus as ABBA. He then developed a great fear and wished to be dismissed.

I like to understand the Bible following the view of Our Mother The Church
 
No, there is no such verse and if you ask her she will not be able to show it to you. Her belief belongs in Urban Legend land.
 
Hi,

Our sermon today was on the sanctity of life. One thing my minister said was that at conception the embryo has everything it needs to be human. All it needs is oxygen, nutrition and TIME.

He read through an article stating what a fetus has at each stage. At 21 days it already has a spinal cord and braincells forming.😃

I dont know how someone could deny this to be nothing yet.:eek:

Just my or my minister’s two cents
 
Aquinas on Human Ensoulment, Abortion and the Value of Life.
www2.franciscan.edu/plee/aquinas_on_human_ensoulment.htm
Q: St.Thomas Aquinas didn’t believe human life begins at conception. He taught that ensoulment doesn’t occur until several weeks later (delayed animation). How does this square with current Catholic teaching against abortion from the time of conception?
A: Notwithstanding his belief in delayed animation and ensoulment, Aquinas still taught that abortion was wrong from the moment of conception. He believed it to be a mortal sin expressive of a homicidal will, even if in the early stages of pregnancy, as he thought, homicide isn’t actually committed.
Aquinas’s opposition, then, squares perfectly with the Church’s teaching, even if there’s a difference between why Aquinas thought abortion was wrong and why Catholic theologians and moralists today think it is.
Why did Aquinas believe ensoulment happened some time after conception? Because he accepted the science of his day, which taught the theory of the spontaneous generation of life (the idea that life spontaneously arises from non-living matter).
As applied to human reproduction, this theory suggested the (apparently) non-living elements contributed by each parent–“fetal matter” in the case of the mother and seminal fluid in the case of the father–were transformed from non-living matter successively into vegetative, animal, and finally human life.
Each of these stages was thought to come about by the infusion of a soul: vegetative life by the infusion of a vegetative soul, animal life by the infusion of an animal soul, and human life by the infusion of a human soul.
Since, according to Aquinas, the soul is the form of the body–that which gives life and makes an organism the kind of creature it is–if an organism possesses distinctively human qualities, we can concluded it possesses a human soul.
Because early scientists observed nothing distinctively human at primitive stages of human development (they knew nothing of genetics and possessed no microscopes), it was concluded no human soul was present.
Modern biology has shown the conceptus does have distinctively human traits. It is living and possesses a human genetic code to guide its growth and development. If Aquinas had had the benefits of this knowledge, his principles would have led him to conclude ensoulment occurs at conception.
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9108qq.asp

google.com/search?hl=en&q=Aquinas+ensoulment
 
The following is found in the case
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
492 U.S. 490
Webster v. Reproductive Health Services
law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0492_0490_ZX1.html

No. 88-605 Argued: April 26, 1989 — Decided: July 3, 1989

JUSTICE STEVENS wrote as follows: …
My concern can best be explained by reference to the position on this issue that was widely accepted by the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church for many years. The position is summarized in a report, entitled “Catholic Teaching On Abortion,” prepared by the Congressional Research Service of the Library of Congress. It states in part:

The disagreement over the status of the unformed as against the formed fetus was crucial for Christian teaching on the soul. It was widely held that the soul was not present until the formation of the fetus 40 or 80 days after conception, for males and females respectively. Thus, abortion of the “unformed” or “inanimate” fetus (from anima, soul) was something less than true homicide, rather a form of anticipatory or quasi-homicide. This view received its definitive treatment in St. Thomas Aquinas, and became for a time the dominant interpretation m the Latin Church.

For St. Thomas, as for mediaeval Christendom generally, there is a lapse of time – approximately 40 to 80 days – after conception and before the soul’s infusion. . . .

For St. Thomas, “seed and what is not seed is determined by sensation and movement.” What is destroyed in abortion of the unformed fetus is seed, not man. This distinction received its most careful analysis in St. Thomas. It was the general belief of Christendom, reflected, [p568] for example, in the Council of Trent (1545-1563), which restricted penalties for homicide to abortion of an animated fetus only.

C. Whittier, Catholic Teaching on Abortion: Its Origin and Later Development (1981), reprinted in Brief for Americans United for Separation of Church and State as Amicus Curiae 13a, 17a (quoting In octo libros politicorum 7.12, attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas). If the views of St. Thomas were held as widely today as they were in the Middle Ages, and if a state legislature were to enact a statute prefaced with a “finding” that female life begins 80 days after conception and male life begins 40 days after conception, I have no doubt that this Court would promptly conclude that such an endorsement of a particular religious tenet is violative of the Establishment Clause.

In my opinion the difference between that hypothetical statute and Missouri’s preamble reflects nothing more than a difference in theological doctrine. The preamble to the Missouri statute endorses the theological position that there is the same secular interest in preserving the life of a fetus during the first 40 or 80 days of pregnancy as there is after viability – indeed, after the time when the fetus has become a “person” with legal rights protected by the Constitution. [n13] To sustain that position as a matter of law, I believe Missouri has the burden of identifying the secular interests that differentiate the first 40 days of pregnancy from the period immediately [p569] before or after fertilization when, as Griswold and related cases establish, the Constitution allows the use of contraceptive procedures to prevent potential life from developing into full personhood. Focusing our attention on the first several weeks of pregnancy is especially appropriate, because that is the period when the vast majority of abortions are actually performed.

As a secular matter, there is an obvious difference between the state interest in protecting the freshly fertilized egg and the state interest in protecting a 9-month-gestated, fully sentient fetus on the eve of birth. There can be no interest in protecting the newly fertilized egg from physical pain or mental anguish, because the capacity for such suffering does not yet exist; respecting a developed fetus, however, that interest is valid. In fact, if one prescinds the theological concept of ensoulment – or one accepts St. Thomas Aquinas’ view that ensoulment does not occur for at least 40 days – a State has no greater secular interest in protecting the potential life of an embryo that is still “seed” than in protecting the potential life of a sperm or an unfertilized ovum.

(one more post due to limit)
 
(continued)
There have been times in history when military and economic interests would have been served by an increase in population. No one argues today, however, that Missouri can assert a societal interest in increasing its population as its secular reason for fostering potential life. Indeed, our national policy, as reflected in legislation the Court upheld last Term, is to prevent the potential life that is produced by “pregnancy and childbirth among unmarried adolescents.” Bowen v. Kendrick, 487 U.S. 589, 593 (1988); accord, id. at 602. If the secular analysis were based on a strict balancing of fiscal costs and benefits, the economic costs of unlimited childbearing would outweigh those of abortion. There is, of course, an important and unquestionably valid secular interest in “protecting a young pregnant woman from the consequences of an incorrect decision,” Planned Parenthood of Central Mo. v. Danforth, 428 U.S. 52, 102 (1976) [p570] (STEVENS, J., concurring in part and dissenting in part). Although that interest is served by a requirement that the woman receive medical and, in appropriate circumstances, parental, advice, [n14] it does not justify the state legislature’s official endorsement of the theological tenet embodied in §§ 1.205.1(1), (2).

The State’s suggestion that the “finding” in the preamble to its abortion statute is, in effect, an amendment to its tort, property, and criminal laws is not persuasive. The Court of Appeals concluded that the preamble “is simply an impermissible state adoption of a theory of when life begins to justify its abortion regulations.” 851 F.2d at 1076. Supporting that construction is the state constitutional prohibition against legislative enactments pertaining to more than one subject matter. Mo.Const., Art. 3, § 23. See In re Ray, 83 B.R. 670 (Bkrtcy Ct., ED Mo.1988); Berry v. Majestic Milling Co., 223 S.W. 738 (Mo.1920). Moreover, none of the tort, property, or criminal law cases cited by the State was either based on or buttressed by a theological answer to the question of when life begins. Rather, the Missouri courts, as well as a number of other state courts, had already concluded that a “fetus is a ‘person,’ ‘minor,’ or ‘minor child’ within the meaning of their particular wrongful death statutes.” [p571] O’Grady v. Brown, 654 S.W.2d 904, 910 (Mo.1983) (en banc). [n15]

Bolstering my conclusion that the preamble violates the First Amendment is the fact that the intensely divisive character of much of the national debate over the abortion issue reflects the deeply held religious convictions of many participants in the debate. [n16] The Missouri Legislature may not inject its endorsement of a particular religious tradition into this debate, for “[t]he Establishment Clause does not allow public bodies to foment such disagreement.” See County of Allegheny v. American Civil Liberties Union, Greater Pittsburgh Chapter, post at 651 (STEVENS, J., concurring in part and dissenting in part).

In my opinion, the preamble to the Missouri statute is unconstitutional for two reasons. To the extent that it has substantive impact on the freedom to use contraceptive procedures, it is inconsistent with the central holding in Griswold. To the extent that it merely makes “legislative findings without operative effect,” as the State argues, Brief for Appellants 22, it violates the Establishment Clause of the First [p572] Amendment. Contrary to the theological “finding” of the Missouri Legislature, a woman’s constitutionally protected liberty encompasses the right to act on her own belief that – to paraphrase St. Thomas Aquinas – until a seed has acquired the powers of sensation and movement, the life of a human being has not yet begun. [n17]
 
Sorry. I’ve seen it cited on these forums though. The Summa is available on line through New Advent. Try that.
Thanks. I have the Summa and scanned through the section on Man, but didn’t spot it. Tried New Advent and also did a google search. For some reason 40 days seemed like it was the time period for one of the genders. But must not have been, because a search on “forty” didn’t find it. Thanks again.

Nita
 
I just cited judge Stevens - He is not God
He cited St Thomas- who is not God. So I will stop here
When Jesus started to be conceived in Mary’s womb - in a matter of second - He became human - and He lived with us.
In the same manner our existence started the first second we were conceived and until the very very true day we stay together with God
1Cor 15:
20
7 8 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21
9 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.
22
For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,
23
but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ;
24
then comes the end, 10 when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.
25
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26
11 The last enemy to be destroyed is death,
27
12 for “he subjected everything under his feet.” But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him.
28
When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will (also) be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.
Thanks to all
 
A friend of mine (somewhat pro-choice, somewhat pro-life) says that somewhere in the Bible it says that after two or three months, the fetus becomes a human being, but not before that.

I am skeptical.

Does anyone know what she is referencing?
Sounds like the popular arguement used by Justice Blackmun in Roe v Wade. Get this, in our vehement “separation of churhc and state” society, the Supreme Court uses a comment by St. Thomas Aquinas refering to when he thought ensoulment took place. Pro Choice Catholics should remember as should the lawyers, courts…ect,… St Thomas was not teaching dogma, only debating a question of exactly when a child has a soul.

Biblicaly, no such verse.:dts: :dts: :dts:
 
Sounds like the popular arguement used by Justice Blackmun in Roe v Wade. Get this, in our vehement “separation of churhc and state” society, the Supreme Court uses a comment by St. Thomas Aquinas refering to when he thought ensoulment took place. Pro Choice Catholics should remember as should the lawyers, courts…ect,… St Thomas was not teaching dogma, only debating a question of exactly when a child has a soul.

Biblicaly, no such verse.:dts: :dts: :dts:
I’ve heard this before and asked the same still unanswered question, What is the chapter and verse?

Iowa Mike
 
Sounds like the popular arguement used by Justice Blackmun in Roe v Wade. Get this, in our vehement “separation of churhc and state” society, the Supreme Court uses a comment by St. Thomas Aquinas refering to when he thought ensoulment took place. Pro Choice Catholics should remember as should the lawyers, courts…ect,… St Thomas was not teaching dogma, only debating a question of exactly when a child has a soul.

Biblicaly, no such verse.:dts: :dts: :dts:
Many, many years ago St. Thomas sincerely speculates, and by confusion it turns into a serious statement!

This happens in many other areas as well. Oh, if only we would learn to listen and think clearly.
 
Dear Mike and all friends

There are NO VERSES in the Bible stating when a conceived child receive his/her soul.
St Thomas Aquinas and some Church Fathers of the Council of Trent thus raised a question that during the first 3 months - the child was seen as a ‘seed’ and then only when the child started to ‘move’ then he/she receives ‘anima’. The issue was never fully discussed and was never a dogma. The US Supreme Court however used St Thomas as a ‘witness’ because of his great influence over many dogmas of the Church.

Please review the posts I have sent earlier.

There was no sufficient scientific knowledge at St. Thomas’ time so it was thought when the child starts to to be conceived - a passive SEED he/she is . Until now there still is no scientific understanding about the mystery of LIFE. We can but see the many millions seeds from the father moving very hard in the womb of the mother to join ONE EGG of the mother. Only ONE succeeds and both they form A SEED. We then see many scientific presentations that LIFE quickly begins with clear movement of the SEED. And after about 3 months, the mother then may feel the movemment that already started when the seed was first formed. Had St Thomas seen those slides, I believed he should have declared THE SEED IS ACTIVE, IS MOVING TO FORM LIFE when Life first starts.

Until we will discover the mystery, I my self will still follow the Church’s Teaching: LIFE started when ONE of the seeds from his father tried to move and to join with the mother’s egg. A MOVING SEED it started to form LIFE. And my belief is supported with scientific studies about LIFE.

Good buy and good luck
 
One day not too long ago I was watching on television an episode of CSI-Las Vegas. The main character said that according to the Jewish faith, a fetus was human after seven days as was stated in Leviticus. I looked all over Leviticus and Deuteronomy even and could not find what some writer for the series wrote. I have to conclude the writer made up the lines for the program. But the misinformation still went out for public consumption.

mdcpensive1
 
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