Bible verses for purgatory

[Tanner9188]

Just to placate you I choose No. 1. Yes, Tanner you are right:thumbsup: Problem is that your bible has some books missing. Did you know that Jesus used the Septuagint which contains those books you believe to contain error? A couple of scripture references (many more that could be cited) that make reference to those books in error.
I know this to be off topic so I will leave it at this.

Matt 2:16 - Herod’s slaying of the innocence prophesied in Wis 11:7

Matt 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is taken from 1 Macc 1:54 and 2 Macc 8:17.

John 10:36 - Jesus uses the analogy of Hanukkah consecration to His own to the Father in 1 Macc 4:36.

Rev 17:14 - describes Jesus on a white horse and follows the same description of the Lord in 2 Macc 3:25; 11:8

In my reading of the early Church Fathers, they also made reference to those books that supposedly contain error.

Hello; Jesus is the WORD, He did not need to use any Scripture; He is the Word. Just to cover the base before, the the bold above; I know He read from Isaiah in the synagogue, but He did not need to in the broadest sense.

Even your own Church recognizes the errors; they minimize it with lengthy detail, but they acknowledge it.

Hello; Jesus never quoted anything from those books, nor did the apostles. These versus; you are demonstrating some similarities, which is not the same nor is it relevant because the ISSUE is inerrancy. If it contains error and they do; then they should be wholly rejected them. Very simple, you either live by what you say you believe or you don’t; this isn’t a game you are playing, the price of being wrong is your life forever.

You had 3 possible choices; cut and dry, you chose the correct one, then deny the truth, which tells me that you do not believe God nor take Him serious, but you will…hopefully it won’t be too late. That is my prayer for you right now.

 

[Tanner9188]

Yes.

Okay…I’ll bite…what is the error that you are referring to?

And YOU avoided the point of my post…namely, that the Catholic Church did NOT canonize anything in haste, did it?

johnankerberg.org/ankerberg-articles/apocrypha.html (You must scroll down the page “The Apocrypha” is the title and it is a short read, less than 3 minutes and the answer to you question is in the body as well; which you already know what I said was true anyway; it not called the 2nd canon without reason.

While you looking at errors; here is another chart for quick review.
biblequery.org/ At this page on the left side you will see links; click the one that says “Apocrypha?”
This might bring you directly to it: biblequery.org/apoc.htm

I’ll say the same thing on this; don’t take a sites word for it; take the information given, then check it out for yourself…than you will be equipped to make an informed decision.

God bless and happy hunting.

 

[Tanner9188]

Now who has avoided the issue?

So, let’s cut to the chase: Are you or are you not a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

**You don’t know one the primary problems with the JW’s doctrines? Just asking. They deny the deity of Jesus; therefore I restate to you the answer to your strange question. Jesus IS God. NO; I do not belong to any false religious system such as theirs or any other kind.

God bless you this moment.**

 

[LionHeart777]

Do you believe the word of God is inerrant and infallible? Choice #1: Yes I do and therefore you are correct, Tanner, and I reject the books that contain error. or #2 I believe the Bible does contain error and is fallible; but I chose to believe books known to have error as the Word of God.

Which is it; their is no middle ground or wiggle room here. Tell the truth.

May God bless you in honesty and sincerity.

Hey Tanner.

I haven’t looked into the allegations of errors that some make regarding the Deutero’s. Also, I do not know what the Catholic Church teaches regarding inerrancy/infallibility; I am not yet even a “lowly” Catechumen.

So, rather than fall into what could very well be a false dichotomy, I plead ignorance and/or uncertainty. Ignorance of the specific alleged errors in the Deutero’s and responses to them. A lack of certainty regarding Catholic teaching on the inerrancy and infallibility of Scripture. Therefore, uncertainty in what to believe.

I have read that St. Thomas Aquinas made two distinctions which I believe relate to inerrancy and or infallibility. Maybe someone w/ more knowledge on the matter can relay that.

God Bless.

 

[Kalos]

Darn good job

"Re: Purgatory: Explain Purgatory to an Evangelical

Hello,

I am a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism, and Purgatory is one of the first doctrines I accepted while still a Protestant. I hope I can be of some help.

C.S. Lewis gives an explanation something like this one:
When we die, we will stand before God and He will say to us, “You are free to enter here; no one will say anything about your condition, but would you like to clean up first?” We will look down and see that we are covered in dirt and scabs, that our clothes are torn and tattered, and (worst of all!) that our hair is an absolute mess. So, we will say, “Clean me, please!” The process of peeling off the dirty clothes, scouring off the grime and dirt, picking the scabs off the healed wounds, having our hair made neat, and being fitted with the finest clothing will be that process of purgatory.

No one is perfect when he dies, even though we all ought to strive for perfection in this life. Inevitably, bad habits formed and vices buried deep will not be gone at the moment of death. However, in Heaven we will all be perfect. Purgatory is the process of working out those imperfections. This is not a punishment any more than the training of a dog is a punishment; it is an education, and we will beg for it so that the lens through which we see God (nothing less than our whole soul) may be perfectly clean and bright in order that we may see Him as He really is.

As a Protestant, this explanation made a lot of sense to me. I hope it helps."

Darn good job

PJM, your explaination for purgatory makes no logical sense whatever. So if its a place were one is to be cleaned-up and perfected for heaven, then please explain why it is so urgent for Catholics to pray for their relatives and others to be quickly released? Why indulgences? You say that purgatory is beneficial while everthing that you Catholics do is a witness that purgatory is something to be avoided at all costs. Do you not see that this is patently absurd?

What then is my hope of heaven? It is the promise of God in His word. I have no confidence in some fabled place between earth and heaven. If I am not trusting Christ for perfection now, why would I trust Him later? Christ Himself is my hope of glory, not purgatory. Col. 1:21-23 says “And you who were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled, In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblaimable and unreproveable in His sight: If ye continue in the faith…and be not moved away from the HOPE of the gospel…”

Lets apply just a little logic. What will ascend to heaven? Not my flesh, but my born-again spirit. And this spirit which is a new creation, does not sin, see 1Jn. 3:9. It was made perfect and therefor there is no reason for it not to be received in heaven. What of the soul? That is a different case. The soul has not been reborn, it must be redeemed but all the evidence I see in the Bible points to the need to redeem it in our earthly life now and not wait for a later time. I think even Catholics know that we are “already saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved” Our spirit is already saved. We need to work on saving our soul in this life and our body will be saved at the second coming. “In your patience ye shall win your souls” (Lk.21:19). “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls”(1Pt.1:9). I find nothing in scripture that points to working out a salvation after death.

As to C.S. Lewis, he may be a good writer, but he has no credentials as a theologian.

 

[dpgreen]

Lets apply just a little logic. What will ascend to heaven? Not my flesh, but my born-again spirit. And this spirit which is a new creation, does not sin, see 1Jn. 3:9. It was made perfect and therefor there is no reason for it not to be received in heaven.

The problem is that Paul tells us that some of us are not perfect when we die so must undergo a purging fire. For you to use 1 Jn 3:9 to bolster the argument that we do not sin after we have been born again, is to disregard scripture that clearly tells us that if we say we are without sin, then we are liars. Collecting all of what scripture says in context helps.

What of the soul? That is a different case. The soul has not been reborn, it must be redeemed but all the evidence I see in the Bible points to the need to redeem it in our earthly life now and not wait for a later time.

If we fully love Christ then we would not need to enter a purifying fire. However, most of us still cling to things of this world, so, therefore, need a clean up before we meet our master.

I think even Catholics know that we are “already saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved” Our spirit is already saved. We need to work on saving our soul in this life and our body will be saved at the second coming. “In your patience ye shall win your souls” (Lk.21:19). “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls”(1Pt.1:9). I find nothing in scripture that points to working out a salvation after death.

Firstly, you contradict yourself. Saved, being saved and will be saved. Then you say we are already saved.

Notice Luke 21:19 says you SHALL win your souls. 1 Peter 1:9 - receiving not received. They are talking about salvation in the future.

Before discussion on the scriptural basis for indulgences and praying for our dead brothers and sisters in Christ is entered upon, no-one has addressed the scripture presented in the case for purgatory. What is Paul talking about in Corinthians and indeed the other scriptures? It seems to clearly contradict your position of salvation.

 

[Kalos]

QUOTE=dpgreen;5660073]The problem is that Paul tells us that some of us are not perfect when we die so must undergo a purging fire. For you to use 1 Jn 3:9 to bolster the argument that we do not sin after we have been born again, is to disregard scripture that clearly tells us that if we say we are without sin, then we are liars. Collecting all of what scripture says in context helps."

Thankyou for your careful reply dp,
Of course we all still sin in this life. Not even the greatest saint would claim to be without sin. Yet you still must deal with other verses like Heb.10:14 states that we have been “perfected forever” (past tense). Or Rm. 8:30 “…and whom He justified, them He also glorified.”(also past tense) Paul then adds in v.33, “Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?” These things certainly cannot apply to our sinfull flesh of our imperfect soul which is of the old creation. It can only be applied to our redeemed spirit. Scripture states that there are three ways in which we sin: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life. These things apply to the body, not the spirit. So I still need to ask, how can it be that the spirit still needs further purification?

QUOTE"If we fully love Christ then we would not need to enter a purifying fire. However, most of us still cling to things of this world, so, therefore, need a clean up before we meet our master".

Yes, but it is the body that clings, not the spirit. For some reason, you feel youmust keep confusing the spiritual with the earthly. Col. 3:3 states that “our life[zoe] is hid with Christ in God.” this is present tense and it could not be possible if we had any sin at all, so how can i explain it? there is no contradiction if it applys not to the sinfull flesh, but only to the spirit which which has no sin.

QUOTE"Firstly, you contradict yourself. Saved, being saved and will be saved. Then you say we are already saved."

This is not a contradiction. It is what the Bible says. first check out Jn. 5:24. Jesus plainly says, “He that…hath everlasting life[present tense] and shall not come unto condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”(past tense or actually past perfect in the Greek if i remember correctly) This means i am saved now.

QUOTE"Notice Luke 21:19 says you SHALL win your souls. 1 Peter 1:9 - receiving not received. They are talking about salvation in the future."

Yes dp, it is a future salvation which shall be revealed when Christ returns, but we must work to gain it now. If one waits untill after death to win his soul, it will have been too late. this is the “being saved”. The future salvation applies to our body which will be entirely renewed at the second coming. Phil.3:21, “Who shall change[future] our vile body…”

QUOTE"Before discussion on the scriptural basis for indulgences and praying for our dead brothers and sisters in Christ is entered upon, no-one has addressed the scripture presented in the case for purgatory. What is Paul talking about in Corinthians and indeed the other scriptures? It seems to clearly contradict your position of salvation.

OK, i think that’s 1Cor.3 your talking about. Perhaps the thing that captures our attention here is the allusion to fire and that turns the mind to Purgatory. Yet is this consistent with the context?
For clarity, i want to use a modern Catholic text and i have a Jerusalem Bible here i will quote from. The pericope is vs.10-15. Building is the action in view here. “Everyone doing the building must work carefully” v.10b. This clearly makes a connection that its about what we do in this life, not the afterlife.
Next we learn that it will be “…revealed when the day comes. That day will begin with fire.” v.13. What day? That certain special day can only be what the bible elsewhere refers to as “The Day of the Lord” or the second coming. This is clearly future, but Purgatory is now according to Catholic tradition so that is a contradiction. The fire here only begins at “That day”.
Further, we see that it will “test the quality of each man’s work” v.13b. You must admit that Purgatory is about corrective action or cleansing as you say and not a quality test. Another contradiction.

Next we see that there may be two possible outcomes. V.14 " If his structure stands up to it, he will get his wages". Or the other possibility is that "if it is burned down he will be the loser"v.15. This is clearly about getting a reward or losing it. Purgatory is about getting cleaned up from sins. Another contradiction. Everyone going through Purgatory will eventually acheive the same outcome. They would all gain from it. Another contradiction.

OK, your turn.

 

[dpgreen]

QUOTE=dpgreen;5660073]The problem is that Paul tells us that some of us are not perfect when we die so must undergo a purging fire. For you to use 1 Jn 3:9 to bolster the argument that we do not sin after we have been born again, is to disregard scripture that clearly tells us that if we say we are without sin, then we are liars. Collecting all of what scripture says in context helps."

Thankyou for your careful reply dp,
Of course we all still sin in this life. Not even the greatest saint would claim to be without sin. Yet you still must deal with other verses like Heb.10:14 states that we have been “perfected forever” (past tense). Or Rm. 8:30 “…and whom He justified, them He also glorified.”(also past tense) Paul then adds in v.33, “Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?” These things certainly cannot apply to our sinfull flesh of our imperfect soul which is of the old creation. It can only be applied to our redeemed spirit. Scripture states that there are three ways in which we sin: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life. These things apply to the body, not the spirit. So I still need to ask, how can it be that the spirit still needs further purification?

QUOTE"If we fully love Christ then we would not need to enter a purifying fire. However, most of us still cling to things of this world, so, therefore, need a clean up before we meet our master".

Yes, but it is the body that clings, not the spirit. For some reason, you feel youmust keep confusing the spiritual with the earthly. Col. 3:3 states that “our life[zoe] is hid with Christ in God.” this is present tense and it could not be possible if we had any sin at all, so how can i explain it? there is no contradiction if it applys not to the sinfull flesh, but only to the spirit which which has no sin.

QUOTE"Firstly, you contradict yourself. Saved, being saved and will be saved. Then you say we are already saved."

This is not a contradiction. It is what the Bible says. first check out Jn. 5:24. Jesus plainly says, “He that…hath everlasting life[present tense] and shall not come unto condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”(past tense or actually past perfect in the Greek if i remember correctly) This means i am saved now.

QUOTE"Notice Luke 21:19 says you SHALL win your souls. 1 Peter 1:9 - receiving not received. They are talking about salvation in the future."

Yes dp, it is a future salvation which shall be revealed when Christ returns, but we must work to gain it now. If one waits untill after death to win his soul, it will have been too late. this is the “being saved”. The future salvation applies to our body which will be entirely renewed at the second coming. Phil.3:21, “Who shall change[future] our vile body…”

QUOTE"Before discussion on the scriptural basis for indulgences and praying for our dead brothers and sisters in Christ is entered upon, no-one has addressed the scripture presented in the case for purgatory. What is Paul talking about in Corinthians and indeed the other scriptures? It seems to clearly contradict your position of salvation.

OK, i think that’s 1Cor.3 your talking about. Perhaps the thing that captures our attention here is the allusion to fire and that turns the mind to Purgatory. Yet is this consistent with the context?
For clarity, i want to use a modern Catholic text and i have a Jerusalem Bible here i will quote from. The pericope is vs.10-15. Building is the action in view here. “Everyone doing the building must work carefully” v.10b. This clearly makes a connection that its about what we do in this life, not the afterlife.
Next we learn that it will be “…revealed when the day comes. That day will begin with fire.” v.13. What day? That certain special day can only be what the bible elsewhere refers to as “The Day of the Lord” or the second coming. This is clearly future, but Purgatory is now according to Catholic tradition so that is a contradiction. The fire here only begins at “That day”.
Further, we see that it will “test the quality of each man’s work” v.13b. You must admit that Purgatory is about corrective action or cleansing as you say and not a quality test. Another contradiction.

Next we see that there may be two possible outcomes. V.14 " If his structure stands up to it, he will get his wages". Or the other possibility is that "if it is burned down he will be the loser"v.15. This is clearly about getting a reward or losing it. Purgatory is about getting cleaned up from sins. Another contradiction. Everyone going through Purgatory will eventually acheive the same outcome. They would all gain from it. Another contradiction.

OK, your turn.

 

[lindalout49]

Please could someone explain this to me, what the word Paradise means when Jesus told one of the two guys that were also on crosses at Jesus crucifixion. Jesus told the one guy that He would see him in paradise that day. So where is Paradise?

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpgreen
It is helpful to read beyond verse 14. In verse 15 we see that the MAN not the work suffers loss, although he is still saved, but only as through fire.

Cachonga writes: “Sure, AFTER his WORKS are burned up! Where does it say the MAN went through the fire? Notice that the others whose works are not burned up (even though they went through the same fire as the works that were burned up) receive a reward.”

REPLY: The verse says the man is saved as thru fire. Note the passage:

"11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. [1 Cor 3:11-15]

What is “the Day” refer to? It is Judgement Day. And how will we be judged? According to Romans 2:6 we will be judged according to our works:

“For he will render to every man according to his works:” [Romans 2:6]

So the man is being judged by his works and those works of wood hay and straw are burned away from him leaving him with only the purified gold, silver and precious stones. He is purified, made clean and this occurs after his death for that is when he is judged. So where in protestant theology is this purifying fire that man is subjected too. Revelation 21:27 says of heaven, the New Jerusalem:

“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” [Rev 21:27] According to protestant theology no one can enter heaven because everyone is unclean. Even the slightest sin damns a protestant to hell. But that, we know from scripture is not a correct theology for 1 John 5:17 tells us:

“All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.” [1 John 5:17]

So there is sin that is not deadly, that is, sin that does not damns one to hell. But any sin is unclean. So how can we correlate 1 John 5:17 with Revelation 21:27? Or how can one enter heaven with this sin that is not mortal unless one is cleansed or purified first before entering heaven. Protestants have nothing in their theology about a purifying fire. The only fire in protestantism is hellfire and that is for the damned but here is a man who is saved and experiences a saving fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpgreen
If God has forgive us ALL our transgressions (I’m supposing you are suggesting past, present and future sins), then why does 1 John 5:16 tell us that there are some sins that we should pray for. Some sin leads to death (mortal). John 20:21-23 also tells us that sins must be confessed. Jesus is not talking to pagans, He is talking to ones who already believed in Him. That confession must be heard so that the sin can either be retained or forgiven (v23).

Cachonga writes: "Matt 5:26 is the last verse of a parable. What is the lesson of the parable? "

REPLY: There is no parable. Jesus is talking about judgement and how the Pharisees perceived it and how it really is. And the judgement is either heaven or hell but Jesus mentions prison. The prison mentioned is purgatory. It cannot be heaven or hell because Jesus says one can get out of it after paying every penny. No one can get out of hell nor heaven for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpgreen
If God has taken care of our impurities then why do we still suffer from the effects of sin? Seems like God hasn’t taken care of them enough.

Cachonga writes: “Sounds like you’re suggesting that Jesus lied when he said “It is finished.” (John 19:30)”

REPLY: When Jesus said it was finished He was referring to His work of salvation. Obviously the work of the church had to go on or else the Great Commission is the epitome of faciousness. So Jesus doesn’t say everything is finished only “IT” is finished. That "IT"is His salvific work on the cross.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpgreen
Maccabbees is a strong witness for prayers for the dead. Even though Protestants dismiss this book, it still provides evidence as to how the Jews practiced their faith. We must remember also that Jesus quoted from the Septuagint which contained the books of Maccabbees.

Cachonga writes: “Aside from the question of canonicity (which is not the topic of this thread), there is still the problem of verse 40 (“Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain.” 2 Mac 12:40 emphasis added). I admit I am no expert, but I don’t think that idolatry can be forgiven under the law (if I’m wrong, please provide the OT reference). If this sin cannot be forgiven under the law, then of what value was the sacrifice offered for them? For that matter, can anyone give any OT reference to making a sin offering for someone who has died?”

REPLY: Canonicity is by the same authority as the 27 books of the NT. Deny one and you deny them all. For 1100 years the deuteros were canonical. Luther threw them out. When you can show me where Luther had the authority to do that then canonicity will be an issue. Until then the deuteros are canonical. As for idolatry being forgiven under the law it is not the unpardonable sin. And while idolatry is punished by physical death we can not be sure it is eternal death. Obviously Judas Maccabee thought it was forgiveable under the law for he took up an offering for a sin offering:

“43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.” [2 Mac 12:43]

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbinson
I believe the concept of purgatory (a place or perhaps a time of purification) is scriptural. Admittedly, the “word” isn’t used (nor is “trinity”) and the concept appears in verses that could be interpreted differently. But that is true of many verses of scripture and thus why there are 30,000 plus protestant denominations (each interpretating the same verses “differently”).

Cachonga writes: “I would like to see what scriptures you think teaches this doctrine. So far, I haven’t seen anything in the verses presented that convinces me.”

REPLY: Well unless you can explain where in protestant theology you find a man going to heaven unclean or where in protestant theology where a man is saved by a purifying fire or even the need for a purifying fire for the saved. Protestantism falls on his face in answering these questions or explaining these scriptures.

Cahonga writes: “In regard to the “30,000 plus protestant denominations”, I have addressed this before in other threads. I would like to know what your source is for this claim! I have heard it from many RC apologists, and the only reference I’ve ever heard of is the World Christian Encyclopedia. If this is your source, then I strongly suggest you check it out carefully. This particular source shows over 33,000 “Christian” denominations (including several Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness denominations, etc…, plus over 2/3rds are “non-denominational). Among the 33,000+ denominations you will find 781 Orthodox Catholic denominations, and 242 Roman Catholic denominations. Seems to me that either your source counts denominations in a way that you would not accept for your own Church, or your Church is more fragmented than you think! Add to that the fact that not all of these denominations even try to pretend that they rely on Sola Scripture, and your assertion appears to fall flat (unless you have a different source, which I would love to check out, if true). However, if your source is the World Christian Encyclopedia, then I suggest you either stop spreading the lie of “33,000+ ‘protestant’ denominations”, or explain which of the 242 Roman Catholic denominations (or 781 Orthodox Catholic denominations) is the “one true Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”!”

REPLY: The number is not important. If there were only two protestant denominations there would be too many. How can you explain Lutherans disagreeing so violently on Baptism. And doing so using the same abridged edition of the scriptures and all the while claiming inspiration of the Holy Spirit. You guys got the Holy Spirit talking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time. Maybe you can explain how Lutherans say yes to infant baptism while Baptists say no to it. Care to answer?.

 

[lindalout49]

Could someone help me out here, this has troubled me for sometime. Where is the Paradise that Jesus refers to when He is on the cross?

 

[dpgreen]

Thankyou for your careful reply dp,
Of course we all still sin in this life. Not even the greatest saint would claim to be without sin. Yet you still must deal with other verses like Heb.10:14 states that we have been “perfected forever” (past tense). Or Rm. 8:30 “…and whom He justified, them He also glorified.”(also past tense) Paul then adds in v.33, “Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?” These things certainly cannot apply to our sinfull flesh of our imperfect soul which is of the old creation. It can only be applied to our redeemed spirit. Scripture states that there are three ways in which we sin: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life. These things apply to the body, not the spirit. So I still need to ask, how can it be that the spirit still needs further purification?

I guess your comment “…you still must deal with other verses like Heb 10:14…” is exactly what the CC says about salvation. We must look at ALL the verses that tell us that salvation is a past, present and future event. We should look at all verses collectively and in context. We receive our initial justification at baptism, then our sanctification is an ongoing event.

To your comment that only the body sins, the spirit is perfected at our justification, I’m not completely sure what you mean by that. Firstly, if a man steals something, it is the hand that takes what is not his. However, where did the hand get permission to take what was not his? If our souls are perfected, then why do we still sin and why does Jesus tells us that we must be perfect. If he has already perfected us, then His comment seems absurd.

Yes, but it is the body that clings, not the spirit. For some reason, you feel youmust keep confusing the spiritual with the earthly. Col. 3:3 states that “our life[zoe] is hid with Christ in God.” this is present tense and it could not be possible if we had any sin at all, so how can i explain it? there is no contradiction if it applys not to the sinfull flesh, but only to the spirit which which has no sin.

I don’t think I’m confusing spiritual with earthly at all. Please indicate to me where in scripture it tells us that the spirit has no sin.

This is not a contradiction. It is what the Bible says. first check out Jn. 5:24. Jesus plainly says, “He that…hath everlasting life[present tense] and shall not come unto condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”(past tense or actually past perfect in the Greek if i remember correctly) This means i am saved now.

Remember all of scripture pertaining to salvation needs to be considered. Paul was working out his salvation with fear and trembling. He did not think he was saved now.

Yes dp, it is a future salvation which shall be revealed when Christ returns, but we must work to gain it now. If one waits untill after death to win his soul, it will have been too late. this is the “being saved”. The future salvation applies to our body which will be entirely renewed at the second coming. Phil.3:21, “Who shall change[future] our vile body…”

Here you expose your misunderstanding of what purgatory is. Purgatory is NOT a place where we can win our souls. That was either done on earth or not. If not, we go to hell. Purgatory is the front porch of heaven where we wipe clean our feet before we enter our host’s home. We can do nothing for ourselves in purgatory. It is the work of Christ that purifies us.

OK, i think that’s 1Cor.3 your talking about. Perhaps the thing that captures our attention here is the allusion to fire and that turns the mind to Purgatory. Yet is this consistent with the context?
For clarity, i want to use a modern Catholic text and i have a Jerusalem Bible here i will quote from. The pericope is vs.10-15. Building is the action in view here. “Everyone doing the building must work carefully” v.10b. This clearly makes a connection that its about what we do in this life, not the afterlife.
Next we learn that it will be “…revealed when the day comes. That day will begin with fire.” v.13. What day? That certain special day can only be what the bible elsewhere refers to as “The Day of the Lord” or the second coming. This is clearly future, but Purgatory is now according to Catholic tradition so that is a contradiction. The fire here only begins at “That day”.
Further, we see that it will “test the quality of each man’s work” v.13b. You must admit that Purgatory is about corrective action or cleansing as you say and not a quality test. Another contradiction.

That day which Paul refers to is our individual judgment day when we die. Look at the text. It talks of each man’s work. It is not the general judgment when Christ comes again.

Next we see that there may be two possible outcomes. V.14 " If his structure stands up to it, he will get his wages". Or the other possibility is that "if it is burned down he will be the loser"v.15. This is clearly about getting a reward or losing it. Purgatory is about getting cleaned up from sins. Another contradiction. Everyone going through Purgatory will eventually acheive the same outcome. They would all gain from it. Another contradiction.

The text does not contradict itself. The text is not about one losing a reward and one receiving it. Both receive the reward. However, one has to suffer before he eventually receives it. Please read the text again.

OK, your turn.

Over to you.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Could someone help me out here, this has troubled me for sometime. Where is the Paradise that Jesus refers to when He is on the cross?

I don’t know if there is an official answer. I saw a discussion today that made a good case for it being Abraham’s Bosom. Luke 16:22-23

22* The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom

The abode of those awaiting the opening of Heaven. This is often referred to as the Limbo of the Fathers.

 

[inkaneer]

Could someone help me out here, this has troubled me for sometime. Where is the Paradise that Jesus refers to when He is on the cross?

Well we know it isn’t heaven because Jesus did not ascend to the Father until after the resurrection anfd he tolfthe good thief, Dismas, that he would be in paradise “this day”. The Creed says Jesus “descended into hell…” Here we need to be careful as many people get confused about this and think of hell only as the abode of the damned. There is another type of hell for the OT saints who were not damned but could not enter heaven. This ‘hell’ was called “The bosum of Abraham” by Jesus or the “Limbo of the Fathers” meaning the OT fathers. On the cross Jesus referred to it as “Paradise”. So it was to this ‘hell’ that Jesus descended. With the resurrection this part of hell was no longer necessary as the gates of heaven were opened. However, one still needed to be clean to enter heaven and so a purgation as spoken of in 1 Cor 3:15. is needed.

 

[Cashue]

We don’t actually need any verses in the bible to support purgatory becasue as you rightly said “the bible’s authority rests on the authority of the Catholic Church” in other words, without the church we would have no bible without the Holy Catholic church the bible would have nothing to “rest” on and would collasp.

Since the bible cannot exist without the Church but the church can exist without the bible (it’s not the CHURCH that rests on the bible but the bible that rest ON the church) why would any teaching NEED the bible if it has the church?

Even though other posters have posted the many verses that speak about purgatory, this point must be hightlighted for all good catholics to have spiritual priorities.

 

[inkaneer]

We don’t actually need any verses in the bible to support purgatory becasue as you rightly said “the bible’s authority rests on the authority of the Catholic Church” in other words, without the church we would have no bible without the Holy Catholic church the bible would have nothing to “rest” on and would collasp.

Since the bible cannot exist without the Church but the church can exist without the bible (it’s not the CHURCH that rests on the bible but the bible that rest ON the church) why would any teaching NEED the bible if it has the church?

Even though other posters have posted the many verses that speak about purgatory, this point must be hightlighted for all good catholics to have spiritual priorities.

This is true. We tend to get caught up in the “sola scriptura trap” when dealing with protestants. But even scripture tells us that it is the church that is “the pillar and bulwark of truth” [1Timothy 3:15].