Bible Verses for the Real Presence

  • Thread starter Thread starter TheSpiritHeals
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
irenetoews,

He did say hey folks come on back. John 6:

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The flesh profiteth nothing. It sounds, to me, like He means that there is no point in litterally Him.

Thanks
 
Should be “there is no point in litterally eating Him.” in previious post.
 
Pan_Dulce said:
irenetoews,

He did say hey folks come on back. John 6:

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The flesh profiteth nothing. It sounds, to me, like He means that there is no point in litterally Him.

Thanks
Click to expand...
The flesh profiteth nothing

From the Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 64. The flesh profiteth nothing. Dead flesh, separated from the spirit, in the gross manner they supposed they were to eat his flesh, would profit nothing. Neither doth man’s flesh, that is to say, man’s natural and carnal apprehension, (which refuses to be subject to the spirit, and words of Christ) profit any thing. But it would be the height of blasphemy, to say the living flesh of Christ (which we receive in the blessed sacrament, with his spirit, that is, with his soul and divinity) profiteth nothing. For if Christ’s flesh had profited us nothing, he would never have taken flesh for us, nor died in the flesh for us

John 6:55-56 JB
For my flesh is REAL food and my blood is REAL drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in him.

Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 55. Jesus Christ, to confirm the notion his disciples had formed of a real eating of his body, and to remove all metaphorical interpretation of his words, immediately adds, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. … For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed;” which could not be so, if, as sectarists pretend, what he gives us in the blessed sacrament is nothing but a bit of bread; and if a figure, certainly not so striking as the manna.

Jesus is saying that his flesh and blood are real food and drink.

Did Jesus mean what he said or was He lying?
 
Pan_Dulce said:
Phyllo,

Thank you for your efforts. I would suggest that if the Real Presence has been a stumbling block this whole time that there may be something suspect about it.

I don’t understand what you mean when you say that many of His followers fell away because they knew exactly what He meant. If Jesus was telling them that they should take bread for Him to be present with them after His death, it seems to me they would have jumped at the chance. In fact, John 6:33-34 basically says just that, “For the Bread of God is the One coming down out of heaven and giving life to the world. Then they said to Him, Lord always give us this bread.” They left when they understood that He wasn’t talking about real bread but of Himself, spiritually. He says, “I am the Bread of Life.” He can nourish us spiritually. Bread can only nourish us physically.

To say it was as you say or that He is Lying is a poor argument. Obviously He doesn’t lie. But that doesn’t mean that something that is irrational is the only other option.

I do not believe that there are any mysteries in the Bible. There are answers that have not been revealed and there are answers that have been revealed for those that are willing to take the effort to look for them. There are things that do require faith and those things are told to us but God did not give us the scriptures to stump us or for us to accept irrational explanations.
Click to expand...
Pan Dulce,

So you are saying “there are no mysteries in the Bible”? Even Luther and Calvin saw that anti sacrament idea as heresy. You need to be honest with the members here about where you are coming from and your church affiliation, what you are really doing. You want us to indulge you, then I need you to be honest with us. What is there to hide? It is one thing to disagree, but you want to debate with a certain air of mystery yourself. I won’t indulge that.

Your reasonings are simply your own mind. Sola Scriptora leads to private judgment and spiritual anarchy. If you won’t come clean with where you are coming from and your church affiliation, why should we trust anything you say?

Mark
 
Re: Do this in Memory of me. The dictionary definition is exact:
Definition of MEMORY
1a : the power or process of reproducing or recalling what has been learned and retained especially through associative mechanisms.
End of the definition.
The process of reproducing. And repeating. This is my body. This is my blood…No symbolism there. This is…****** An active verb. The Lamb of God was being crucified at the same time the paschel lamb was being ritually slaughtered for the Passover meal. The blood was being poured out in both cases. Now how can Jesus do that you ask? The same way He fed 5000, turned water into wine, healed the sick, made the blind see, raised folks from the dead, walked on water and the list goes on. We can accept all of Jesus miracles but we cannot accept the miracle that He can give us His body and blood as true food and true drink as described in Jn 6?
“This saying is hard; who can accept it?” Jn 6:60
“As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.” Jn 6:66 They walked away. As many have today. Just walk away because the saying is too hard. Jesus did not call them back to correct himself or clarify his words. Sacred Tradition, The Teaching Magisterium of the Church and Scripture, all agree for over 2000 years; This truly is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Blessed Lord called the Eucharist which unifies us also as one body in the Body of Christ. :bible1:**
 
Pan_Dulce said:
po18guy,

I don’t believe we need to actually eat that which is given us from Heaven. The bread from Heaven Jesus was talking about was spiritual bread, “the words I speak to you are spirit and are life.” (John 6:63).

The reason Jesus had to be sacrificed is the same reason that animals were sacrificed - to cover sin. God does not change, therefore He had to follow His established rules. Luckily, Jesus was the final sacrifice. Nonetheless, it really was a blood sacrifice. The animals were temporary and Jesus permanent. It can be called washing away but it is the same thing.

I don’t think you can separate the doing or the remembering. It is, do this in remembrance. Both aspects are required. Also, Jesus doesn’t say that the bread and wine had become his flesh and blood. The metaphor referred to His body would be broken like he had broken the bread and then He says the wine is the blood of the New Covenant poured out for the remission of sins. The bread represents his death and the wine His blood that gets rid of our sin.

You have to read into the texts to take away that He was being that literal especially when He tells his disciples that He was speaking in a spiritual sense. If he was literal and we take the Eucharist, then we should not die as did those who ate the manna. The fact is, that Catholics die every day that have taken the Eucharist - the same fate as those that ate the manna.
Click to expand...
You forget that the One who speaks is God and He creates by the Word He speaks. So when He says, “This is my body” it is.

This is not a mystery in the sense of it is irrational. It is divine fiat. The Lord has spoken let all the Earth be silent.

It is better to take God at His Word and accept it is true simply than it is to try and pull Him down from Heaven and fit Him into a category we can understand. The one who does this falls into the peril of which St Augustine speaks when he says, “a man by his intellect may see the Celestial City but never enter it.”

It is better to first believe and then understand. Faith precedes understanding. An understanding that precedes faith cannot be called faith but rationalism. If you think the Bible allows for rationalism then I warmly invite you to explain, rationally, God’s answer to Job or His command to Abraham to slay Isaac. No these things are understood by faith. Even a great thinker like Kierkegaard acknowledged this.

However when faith precedes knowledge the knowledge we have is all the more sure. Because then our faith does not cling to our ability to understand God (Faith in knowledge) but rather our knowledge flows from the certainty of first having believed simply and received faithfully from Christ by His Church the grace He wants to give us and so grow in that grace that we may come to the knowledge of faith. A faith built on the certainty of the goodness of God and a knowledge that flows from it.

In this way a man may be delivered from believing the facts about the Faith and instead believe the Faith itself.

God Bless
 
What beautiful information I find regarding the reality of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. Regardless of the source - Catholic or non-Catholic, the reflections all offer respect to the beliefs of others. Having been born Catholic, raised Catholic, attended Catholic schools and a stint studying for the priesthood under the Claretian Fathers, I do have a firm belief that the consecrated bread and wine is the actual presence of a person, that of Jesus the Christ.

The very central core of faith for the first Apostles, handed through 2,000 years is that their friend, leader and teacher asked them to eat of His flesh, and drink of His blood - and that this was not a remembrance but a true presence - a true participation in Christ’s flesh and blood, and a sitting at the table of the Last Supper - ongoing. I fully understand that those who are not Catholic cannot justify such a concept, nor does the Apostolic Succession allow them to claim such a real presence in their “communion” services.

In my book “The Beauty of the Catholic Faith” - Amazon, Kindle I set these beliefs out very carefully. In leading RCIA groups, bible studies, retreats and the like, this subject always comes up, and I am so proud to have the power of receiving my Redeemer, physically and literally, at each Eucharistic feast I attend or lead.
 
Thank you Jerry. I remember reading this thread when it was originally posted. I have bounced back and forth between a Catholic background and a developed Fundamentalist perception. I am always open to good reading material on this subject.

It is interesting that I have not been on this site in many years, but this thread has been resurrected. (Excellent timing!)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top