Bible version used by Reformed/Presbyterian

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There is an obvious “sola scriptura” issue as to which version of the Bible is to be our “Bible alone” guide. We are yet to confront that in our argument!
With the exception of KJV-onlyists, the general belief among Protestants is that translations, while valuable, are not inspired or infallible and are subject to debate over the original text itself or in its proper translation. That is why many Protestants are so keen on learning Hebrew and Greek. The NIV is widely accepted among Protestants as a generally acceptable translation for personal reading and study, but pews seem to more often be stocked with a more literal translation like the NRSV.
 
Thank you so much. I find this so interesting. I was once attracted to Sola Scriptura as supreme rule of faith in the almost Calvinistic sense (I have some Scottish Presbyterian heritage). I read/listened to debates by James White and Patrick Madrid. But my rather simple mind kept coming back to if “Bible Alone”, then which Bible? And if which Bible, then which translation? It is rather like the Canon. How do I as a simple Christian know which books are canonical?

I should say that I have enormous respect for the Reformed tradition and its emphasis on the sovereignty of God and on the ethic of vocation and work.
 
I don’t recall Jesus, or the Apostles for that matter, endorsing a specific dialect. They did use what was commonly understood by most and through the Holy Spirit the Apostles were given the gift of “tongues”, that is the ability to communicate in a language foreign to them.

Since we don’t have any original bible transcripts and only copies of them, and since Hebrew and Greek are symbolic languages where a symbol had more than one meaning, there is no translation that can claim a “perfect” status.

IMHO, you need to look a different translations and use references such as “Strong’s” ,etc to determine what is being said and within the context of where it is being said. Having Greek/Hebrew references are really helpful as well.

But to answer the question, there is no official version endorsed by the Reformed/Presbyterian.

What good is the word of God if it is given in a way that is not understood by whoever is listening to it?

Kind of like the old Catholic Church practice of giving mass in Latin only to people that did not understand Latin…

Animum debes mutare, non caelum.
 
Kind of like the old Catholic Church practice of giving mass in Latin only to people that did not understand Latin…

Animum debes mutare, non caelum.
Just an FYI, they give it to people that speak Latin as well!😃
I think the OP makes a valid point, as there is a difference between language barrier and version of the Bible. If it is to be the Sole rule of faith, there should be agreement on the translation. I perceive this as another reason sola scriptura doesn’t work.
 
Sorry to start where I began but then who read the Geneva Bible? Or was that read by Reform Christians only until the KJV became available and then the KJV became the Bible for parish life in Reform churches?

I have seen a Geneva Bible and it looks quite beautiful, but I understand that among many English Protestants there was resistance to the Geneva Bible because it attacked the King and the Bishops from a puritan perspective.
 
The Geneva Bible was, for the very first time, a mechanically printed, mass-produced Bible available directly to the general public which came with a variety of scriptural study guides and aids (collectively called an apparatus), which included verse citations which allow the reader to cross-reference one verse with numerous relevant verses in the rest of the Bible, introductions to each book of the Bible which acted to summarize all of the material that each book would cover, maps, tables, woodcut illustrations, indexes, as well as other included features — all of which would eventually lead to the reputation of the Geneva Bible as history’s very first study bible.

It came out approximately 51 years before the KJV.

reformedreader.org/gbn/igb.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Bible

Keep in mind that there is no sponsored/exclusively approved version of the Bible for what you called Reformed/Presbyterian.

This links can help you understand more of the Protestant Reformation:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation
britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/495422/Reformation
reformation.org/

Today, the ESV and NKJV are regularly used by Pastors. The ESV is gaining a lot of following in that some view it as an updated version of the RSV.

Again keeping in mind that Greek and Hebrew are very difficult languages to translate into English, or other non symbolic languages.
 
Thank you very much.

Was the Geneva Bible originally published with or without the Deuterocanonicals/Apocraphyl books?

One of my back-and-forward discussions with my Presbyterian friend is on the subject of authority and on the canon. I can accept a large part of his argument but I struggle with the Protestant/Reform explanation of the canon. I have in particular never understood the basis for eliminating books of the Bible which had been accepted for 1500 years. It seems illogical to me to say:

(1) I believe in Bible Alone as my supreme rule; and

(2) I also believe that I can edit the Bible (Alone) down to so many books

I am not trying to start a fight but my understanding is that Luther even wanted to eliminate James, Hebrews and Revelation as well (?).

I do not know if Calvin was of the same view.
 
Not sure which “Reformed” you’re looking for, but I grew up in the CRC (Christian Reformed Church) and they used the NIV amost exclusively. In high school, I collected a few other versions, but I never saw anything but the NIV in the pews.
 
The Geneva Bible included all 80 books as did the KJV (until 1885 - includes 66 books).

I believe that Luther was the first one to separate these “apocryphal” books because they were not mentioned in the Masoretic Text of the Jewish Canon.

Some more reading:

Biblical apocrypha
Masoretic Text

Maybe you can convince Patrick457 to teach me how to make really cool informative posts with links, pictures and all kinds of goodies! 😃
 
P.S. I should also add that I haven’t been in a CRC church in about… 7? years, so I don’t know if they’ve switched translations (though I doubt it).

Also, I have a couple other comments:
IMHO, you need to look a different translations and use references such as “Strong’s” ,etc to determine what is being said and within the context of where it is being said. Having Greek/Hebrew references are really helpful as well.
You should be careful with Strong’s Lexicon, though, as he definitely likes to tweek his English definitions in order to undercut the Catholic interpretation of the Bible. Petros and petra are a prime example. Strong claims that petros means “a pebble or tiny rock” whereas petra means “boulder or enormous rockface/rockwall.” (That’s not word for word as I’m at work and thus can’t quote precisely from my Strong’s Lexicon which is at home, but you get the picture.) It’s true that, in some ancient dialects of Greek, petros and petra were distinct and had these divergent definitions, however what Strong doesn’t in any way bother to mention is that this was not the case in Koine Greek (i.e. Biblical Greek), and this distinction had not been used in any spoken or written form of Greek for at least 200 years when Jesus was alive and when Matthew wrote his Gospel. Unfortunately, I don’t know of any more carefully compiled Koine Lexicon than Strong’s, and, just as unfortunately, practically every single Protestant Bible scholar accepts Strong’s definitions without question as though his was an inspired Lexicon dropped down from Heaven itself.
One of my back-and-forward discussions with my Presbyterian friend is on the subject of authority and on the canon. I can accept a large part of his argument but I struggle with the Protestant/Reform explanation of the canon. I have in particular never understood the basis for eliminating books of the Bible which had been accepted for 1500 years. It seems illogical to me to say:

(1) I believe in Bible Alone as my supreme rule; and

(2) I also believe that I can edit the Bible (Alone) down to so many books

I am not trying to start a fight but my understanding is that Luther even wanted to eliminate James, Hebrews and Revelation as well (?).

I do not know if Calvin was of the same view.
It’s been a while since I’ve read his Institues, but I believe it was Calvin who coined the “spiritual discernment” method of determining the canon (I don’t remember the actual term coined, but that one seems to fit) by which one reads the books of the Bible, spiritually “discerns” them to be positively oozing with some ineffable quality of etherial inspiredness and thus one just “knows” by their sheer ability to make one’s soul vibrate that they obviously belong in the Bible. Personally, I find this “method” (if you can call it that) one of the most profound failures of Calvin’s otherwise very logical mind (seems more like madness to me). Particularly if you’ve ever sat down and read a decent number of the historical books in Scripture. I can understand how this “method” would lead one to throw out First Maccabees (I’m reading it now and, while it’s interesting, I don’t feel particularly edified by it spiritually), but then why not, by the same logic, throw out Leviticus, or the Chronicals, or… etc. It’s the most wishy-washy, subjective, relativistic concept of “canonicity testing” I’ve ever seen…
 
I find the Maccabees books to be quite inspiring and worthy of a movie – a group of dedicated God-fearing Israelites who will not sell out to the Hellenizers and those seeking to pervert their faith. Like Joshua, there are enormous lessons for us in this salvation history.

Thank you for the advice on Calvin. I respect Calvin’s intellect and work and I think too few Catholics take the time to grasp his work. It is sad that he left the Catholic Church and that his abilities were not harnessed for the Church’s own work.
 
I find the Maccabees books to be quite inspiring and worthy of a movie – a group of dedicated God-fearing Israelites who will not sell out to the Hellenizers and those seeking to pervert their faith. Like Joshua, there are enormous lessons for us in this salvation history.

Thank you for the advice on Calvin. I respect Calvin’s intellect and work and I think too few Catholics take the time to grasp his work. It is sad that he left the Catholic Church and that his abilities were not harnessed for the Church’s own work.
Don’t get me wrong, as a Catholic, I’m absolutely certain the Maccabees are chock full of important theological Truths on many levels. But, as a former Protestant who’d never read I Maccabees before, I had no idea what those Truths might be. And, while I certainly enjoyed it and thought it to be a fascinating story, I “felt” its divinely inspired nature stir my soul about as much as I once felt my soul stirred by a book I read in high school about the first few Roman emperors. It was fun to read and historically fascinating, but I wish I had someone reading it with me who could tell me what I’m supposed to learn from it as a Catholic.

And remember, that’s my impression after my first reading; I’m sure in the coming years (especially once the Ignatius Study Bible Old Testament is released) I’ll find it much more theologically earthshattering than I did this time. But, that’s kind of the point, isn’t it? I “felt” nothing terribly special about the book, and you “feel” very inspired by it. Yet, this kind of completely subjective, utterly relativistic feeling is supposedly the basis of deciding which books are the very Word of God??? In my humble opinion, that’s probably the most idiotic method of deciphering the canon that I’ve ever heard proposed… yet thousands upon thousands of people subscribe to it…

However, regarding the rest of Calvin’s theology, I wholeheartedly agree. He certainly had a gift for rationality, and without him perhaps the Protestant world would’ve fallen into moral debauchery far quicker than it has. But, in the end we’re left disappointedly saying with Maxwell Smart, “If only he had used his powers for good instead of evil…”
 
I have just got a new RSV-CE 2nd edition, which I am looking forward to now using for study. I have an evangelical Anglican friend who is a KJV-only person, so that is another interesting position to adopt. I can at least understand his position: he believes in sola scriptura and his sola scriptura is the KJV, which is his sole rule of faith.
 
I have just got a new RSV-CE 2nd edition, which I am looking forward to now using for study. I have an evangelical Anglican friend who is a KJV-only person, so that is another interesting position to adopt. I can at least understand his position: he believes in sola scriptura and his sola scriptura is the KJV, which is his sole rule of faith.
Yeah, it’s a position that undoubtedly seems safer and more comfortable than claiming SS while still having the “which translation???” question hanging over your head, but it begs two questions: 1) How well can you really be sure your average layperson understands/interprets a 500-years-dead dialect of English? and 2) Where does that leave the millions/billions of Christians who lived prior to the creation of the KJV and/or who didn’t/couldn’t/don’t speak/read (either modern or KJ-era) English? The KJV certainly speaks pretty plainly and unabashedly about the apostolic nature of the Church, more clearly than many modern Protestant translations, but… that just makes the KJV-only argument that much more untennable given the fact that not one Apostle spoke or wrote anything remotely akin to KJ-English…
 
Indeed. One thing I will say for Presbyterian ministers (in my experience) is that some of them have some education in ancient Hebrew and Greek, so that they can read original manuscripts of the Old Testament. There seems to be a real, seminary-level insistence on knowing ancient languages of the Bible.

This said, it did surprise me that there was no definitive Presbyterian version of the Bible. I did ask my friend about the Geneva Bible and he said no. He said that British Presbyterians would mostly use the Authorised Version (ie KJV) but that other Presbyterians would chose NIV and ESV, for example, but not the Geneva Bible.
 
My wife informs me that, when we went to our Calvinist college in the heart of the Christian Reformed denomination about 5 years ago, they were in the process of changing from NIV to the RSV for all their Religion classes. They still had NIV bibles in the chapel, but all the Religion professors asked the students to use the RSV and she thinks there were plans to replace the chapel-Bibles with RSVs too.
 
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