Biblical Basis for Mary's Perpetual Virginity

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rocky
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
One problem w/ the idea that Mary took a vow of virginity in the Protoevangelic James writing: Apparently there were such virgins dedicated to serving at the Temple. She apparently lived in Nazareth however, quite a distance from the Temple in Jerusalem. Some research into ancient Jewish custom may reveal more but it would seem service in the Temple would be difficult and limited due to the travel required. An adult would likely have to have been with Mary and taken several days off of chores to do so. Problematic but not insurmountable.

I don’t have the reference but I’ve heard there is a prophecy about Mary (in Ezkiel I think) which refers to the womb closing forever after the birth of the Messiah.

The absence of siblings when Jesus was 12 at the Temple, and at the Canaan wedding, and at the foot of the cross all suggest the possibilty/probablity that the siblings were half brothers and sisters. Surely living siblings would have been with their mother at the foot of the cross. Surely, Jesus would not have given his mother to St. John at the foot of the cross to be cared for, had living siblings been around.

Finally there is the argument about the Ark of the Covenant and the incredibly detailed instructions for making it pure, clean, and guarded and cared for, as it carried the manifestations of God, 10 commandments, Aaron’s staff and manna (Eucharist precurser). Purity was demanded by God and only the Levites were permitted to touch it and serve as priests. Mary is the new Ark of the Convenant requiring the parallel purity.

As far as I know the Bible doesn’t expressly declare virginity but it is deducted from several biblical verses. Haven’t had a chance to do the research but an excellent source would be the church declaration on the virginity of Mary - not sure if it was a council or Papal declaration.
 
So a young girl is betrothed, engaged to be married, and an angel appears and tells her she is to bear a son, and it very much sounds like the boy will be the long anticipated Messiah.

I would expect a reply something along the lines of “Wow! Cool! I can hardly wait!”
But no, she says, “How can this be?”
Normally when you get greeted by an angel, you would say something along the lines of “OH COOL! AN ANGEL!”. But Mary was a bit spooked:

The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.

Troubled reception —> Troubled reply. Makes perfect sense.
 
There is no historical basis for the idea of Temple Virgins, this is something borrowed from Greek and Roman ideas and thrown into the protoevangelium of James.

Quite right that Luke is not Jewish literature…Luke wasn’t even Jewish.
 
No I am not incorrect. I am very correct here in interpreting the Greek properly. You can’t interpret the Greek out of context because it leads to false interpretations. This is the problem with the article in addition to too many assumptions being made by the author. Then the author uses questions to try and make a point such as how can a carpenter support multiple children?

Sounds like you are pretty sure of yourself, and I totally respect that. I guess I’ll just leave it up to the scholars to bandy different ideas about. For me personally, I’ll just stick with my faith in the C.C. I’m out of the debate—have to go to work anyway.

Just one thing though before I go; don’t you think God would create Mary in a sinless state considering the following…

How bad is sin? God condemned Satan to an eternal hell for pride (Is 14:12-15; Matt 25:41). God condemned mankind to an eternal hell for Adam eating the fruit from a forbidden tree (Gen 2:16-17; 3:1-7; Rom 5:12-14). And He drowned the entire world in a flood of water, without regard to age or sex, for their sin and wickedness (Gen 7:21-23).

How bad is sin? The LORD annihilated seven nations of Canaan for abominable atrocities like adultery and sodomy, two sins glamorized in America (Lev 18:1-30; Acts 13:19). A man was stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath (Num 15:32-36). And God killed a man and his wife in church for fudging their giving (Acts 5:1-11).

How bad is sin? God required capital punishment for disrespectful children (30:17; Deut 27:16). He required the death penalty for adultery (Lev 20:10), and He measures even the desire for another woman as adultery (Matt 5:28). He considers unjust anger and cruel words as implicit murder (Matt 5:21-26). And He counts the violation of one precept as breaking the entire law, for even one transgression is of infinite evil (Jas 2:10-11).

How bad is sin? In order for God to accept any man in His presence, He had to send His only begotten Son to be tortured to death in a substitutionary payment for sin! In the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth, we clearly see God’s hatred for sin, for He forsook His beloved Son, when the sins of the elect were laid to His charge (Matt 27:46). God is able and willing to love His elect, only because He views them in Christ Jesus (Eph 1:3-6).

Sometimes God lets men get away with sin for a while to deceive them, but He warns about His judgment and wrath for such presumption (Ps 50:21-22). The Jews thought they were rid of Jesus of Nazareth, but He brought the Roman armies just 40 years later to kill over one million in the city of Jerusalem alone and level their city to the ground.

One of the greatest character traits of the Lord Jesus Christ was His love of righteousness and hatred of sin (Ps 45:7; Heb 1:8-9). For this glorious attribute, the blessed God honored Him far above all other men. From His example, we can see that nobility of spirit and approval before God is in direct proportion to love of virtue and hatred of sin.

David wrote, “For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man” (Ps 5:4-6).

David wrote again, “The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD’S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright” (Ps 11:4-7).

…Do you really think God (“neither shall evil dwell with thee”) would allow His only begotten Son to be one with sinful flesh after such harsh things the bible says about sin and God’s extreme abhorrence of it?

Just as the New Covenant surpasses the Old, so the new Ark of the Covenant (The Blessed Mary) is superior to the old. The old Ark contained the word of God inscribed on stone tablets, but the new Ark contained the Incarnate Word of God. The old Ark held the Law that could not justify, but the new Ark held Jesus Christ Who Himself is the eternal New Covenant with God; He Who justifies and saves. Moses placed the manna from the desert before the Tablets in the old Ark of the Covenant, but the new Ark was the repository of the true Manna, the Bread come down from heaven, Jesus Christ the Son of God. The old Ark was made of inanimate materials, but the new Ark is the greatest human person whoever has or ever will live - she whose soul has been adorned by God with a superabundance of the choicest graces.

The Israelites had a great reverential fear for the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Only the priests were allowed to touch it. The Lord struck down Oza for touching the Ark when the Israelites were moving it to Jerusalem (2 Kings 6:6-7). And the Ark of the Covenant proved to be a blessing for Obededom and all his household when it stayed in his house for three months (2 Kings 6:10-11). How much more then is love, respect and honor due to the new Ark of the Covenant - the Magnificent Mother of God. For it is through Mary’s fiat that we have received such a glorious Savior Who redeemed us by His Holy Cross and nourishes us with His Body and Blood.👍
 
…Do you really think God (“neither shall evil dwell with thee”) would allow His only begotten Son to be one with sinful flesh after such harsh things the bible says about sin and God’s extreme abhorrence of it?
Its the mind that sins, not the flesh. so there is no such thing as sinful flesh.
 
No I am not incorrect. I am very correct here in interpreting the Greek properly. You can’t interpret the Greek out of context because it leads to false interpretations.
Then we are to presume, of course, that the early Church Fathers were also wrong because they interpreted the Greek wrong, and you are right because you have the Greek right? So, what made you exactly better than early Christians? Of course, this isn’t directly connected to the issue at hand, but such a claim makes one astounded that, forgive me for saying this, it smacks of arrogance.
 
Then we are to presume, of course, that the early Church Fathers were also wrong because they interpreted the Greek wrong, and you are right because you have the Greek right?
Did the “church fathers” say that Mary’s reply indicates a vow of abstinence?
 
This whole thing is REALLY SIMPLE!!!

Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit. If she were to have sex with any man it would make her an adulteress. Why do you think we call St. Joseph, her “most chaste spouse”. Of course she was ever virgin. Either that or she was - um - something I won’t even suggest. 😊 And that is not an option.

This doesn’t have to be so complicated.

~Liza
 
Did the “church fathers” say that Mary’s reply indicates a vow of abstinence?
Not that I know of, though that was never considered by the Church Fathers (correct me if I am wrong on this) independently; rather, they looked at the whole event and not just fixed on certain parts of it.
 
**
Its the mind that sins, not the flesh. so there is no such thing as sinful flesh.
**

No such thing as sinful flesh???

It was Peter’s biggest problem. Jesus told Peter: “Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The flesh is weak. That is our biggest problem.

Being of flesh and blood is not in and of itself wrong. Jesus also became flesh. “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).

Even after His resurrection, Jesus told his disciples: “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have” (Luke 24:39). “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory” (1 Timothy 3:16).

There is nothing wrong with having a body of flesh, but the problem is that our bodies have strong desires which tempt us to sin via the mind. “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death” (James 1:13).

“Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world – the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life – is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever” (1 John 2:15-17).

The desires of our flesh relate only to things that are temporal, to temporary things, to things that will pass away.

Jesus said: “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63).

It is only through Christ that we can escape the consequences of the sins we commit in the flesh. As Paul told the believers at Rome: “But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts” (Romans 13:14).

In chapter seven he had explained the tremendous problem we have because of the desires of the flesh.

“For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death” (Romans 7:5).

“For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God – through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin” (Romans 7:14-25).

Only in Christ can we escape from our bondage to sin.

“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors – not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God” (Romans 8:1-14).

This gives us a new outlook on life. We learn to see ourselves and others from a spiritual viewpoint. As Paul says: “Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Corinthians 5:16,17).

This does not mean that we may stop struggling, and give in to the flesh. We may not misuse the grace of God.

“For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit” (Galatians 5:13-25).

“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life” (Galatians 6:7,8).

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others” (Ephesians 2:1-3).

We must continue to struggle against the evil within ourselves. And we must separate ourselves from the evil of this world.

“Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: ‘I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.’ Therefore ‘Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.’ I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty. Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Corinthians 6:14 – 7:1).
 
The question is valid because she wasnt married.

.
New American Bible footnotes
7 [18] Betrothed to Joseph: betrothal was the first part of the marriage, constituting a man and woman as husband and wife. Subsequent infidelity was considered adultery. The betrothal was followed some months later by the husband’s taking his wife into his home, at which time normal married life began.
Mary and Joseph were married when the Angel appeared. We tend to define terms as they apply today not as they occurred then.
 
How about the idea that the translation of the original Hebrew into Greek was flawed. The Hebrew “young woman” became “virgin” in Greek. Is that any sort of problem? Just wondering.
There has been controversy among scholars about the translation and the meaning of a small section of Isaiah (Isaiah 7:14-16) containing the word “עלמה” (almah), translated variously as young woman or as virgin. Matthew, writing in Greek about the virgin birth of Jesus, quotes the Septuagint text of this passage, which uses the Greek word “παρθένος” (of which “virgin” is the correct English translation) to render the less precise Hebrew word.
 
This whole thing is REALLY SIMPLE!!!

Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit. If she were to have sex with any man it would make her an adulteress. Why do you think we call St. Joseph, her “most chaste spouse”. Of course she was ever virgin. Either that or she was - um - something I won’t even suggest. 😊 And that is not an option.

This doesn’t have to be so complicated.

~Liza
Good point, I never really looked at it like that—thanks! 👍 👍 👍
 
The flesh is weak. That is our biggest problem.
Hey even Atheists agree with that fact. The flesh is weak. But that still doesnt mean that its the flesh that sins. Its your mind, buddy.
 
Mary and Joseph were married when the Angel appeared. We tend to define terms as they apply today not as they occurred then.
Bethrothal doesnt mean sex. Consumation of marriage normally begins when the couple starts living together.

Mary’s question is still valid.

You folks keep ignoring the most important question of all

WHY WOULD MARY MAKE A VOW OF ABSTINENCE BEFORE MEETING THE ANGEL???
 
Bethrothal doesnt mean sex. Consumation of marriage normally begins when the couple starts living together.

Mary’s question is still valid.

You folks keep ignoring the most important question of all

WHY WOULD MARY MAKE A VOW OF ABSTINENCE BEFORE MEETING THE ANGEL???
Is the vow of abstinence really that important? I wouldn’t even dare claim to know nor try to refute any arguments, but my humble opinions are these.

Mary was a virgin when Angel Gabrial appeared to her and she concieved of the Holy Spirit (which is supported by scripture and what we believe in quite fundamentally … 'was concieved by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary).

So, Mary was a virgin when she concieved and gave birth to Jesus.

Further along in her marriage, it’s probably right if she and Joseph consummated their marriage, since (pls correct me if i’m wrong), a non-consummated marraige is ground for annulment?

Having relations with Joseph during their marriage did not result in any children, so Joseph did not have any offspring with Mary and Mary only had one son - Jesus who was fully human from Mary - ie in scientific terms, he had 100% of Mary’s DNA (His divine nature came from His Father - God).

Why Mary didn’t have any other children who were Jesus’ half-sibilings?
From the very little that i have managed to read about, the days Jesus was living in could be very similar to traditional Middle Eastern countries where women do not have an important place in society and would require a male (Father, Brother or Spouse) to give them their ‘place’. So when Jesus was bring crucified, he knew that after his death, Mary would become a woman who would not have any place in society, so he told his mother at the cross “woman, behold, your son.” and tJohn he said “Behold, your mother.”. John 19:26 carries on to say that from that hour the disciple (John) took her (Mary) into his home. This would fit the times, where a women needed a Father, Brother or Spouse’s home otherwise she would have no place in society and if Jesus did have any step-brothers, he wouldn’t have asked John to care for his mother Mary.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top