Biblical Basis for the Timelessness of God?

[Tiberius1701]

I’m a recent convert from Calvinism, and I’m discussing theology with an old Calvinist friend of mine. We were talking about the Eucharist, and I tried to explain that it’s not a re-killing of Christ because God is outside of time and He can connect each and every Mass with the very same, single sacrifice of Jesus’ Body and Blood on the Cross by, in Star Trek terms, warping the space-time continuum. Problem is, he all but denies that God is outside of time. My wife and I have run into this sort of a communication problem with him before, and the more we talk, the more I think he just plain believes that God is bound by linear time. (Makes no sense to me - after all, how can God be bound by something He Himself created? But…)

As a Calvinist, he’s of course staunchly Sola Scriptura, so, does anyone know of a passage that talks about God’s extemporal nature? Or about Jesus’ Sacrifice as happening “before the world began” or something like that? My wife swears she read a verse like that the other day, but we can’t find it…

 

[passus]

You can deduce God’s transcendence of time logically:

The Bible says that every perfect gift is “from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow” (James 1:17).

A perfect being cannot undergo change. If God is truly perfect, then it makes sense that there is no higher perfection to which He can possibly aspire. There is no progression to His existence or ultimate goal of His being because God’s very existence is the ultimate goal of His being. And that is by virtue of His divinity, for any being less perfect would not be (truly) God.

Furthermore, change is an event. Something must precipitate change, change occurs, and then the period after the change is unlike the period prior to the change with regard to whatever change took place. For any change to take place would require some form of time or division of time to allow for the distinction of that event. If God is an infinite being, though, whose existence knows absolutely no beginning and absolutely no end, how can you partition His existence in such a way? An existence so divided would not be infinite.

In addition, you might look at a Bible verse like:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Perhaps a way to say it would be “Time is inside of God” rather than “God is outside of time”. If God is eternal and omnipresent, as I believe nearly all monotheists believe, He cannot possibly be bound to time. He exists everywhere at every moment simultaneously. There is not past for God, there is no future for God. He simply is. Hence the name “I AM”. He existed before He created the universe and thus everything by which we measure time was created by God. I am having a hard time understanding how a Christian could believe that God is in some way bound to time. Here is a link to a philosophical article on time and eternity with some scriptural references. By the way, when I truly contemplate the eternal nature of God, the plan of salvation which included His incarnation becomes even more astounding. I mean, what a burden it must have been for the Son just to enter into time and space! Wow.

I think the verse your wife was trying to think of is from Revelation 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

Here are some more verses that might help:

Is 57:15 For thus says the high and lofty one
who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy:

Jer 23:23
Am I a God near by, says the Lord, and not a God far off? 24Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them? says the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? says the Lord.

Acts 1:7
It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His power.

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, 25nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things.

Col 1:16
For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers. All things were created by him and in him. 17 And he is before all: and by him all things consist.

Ps 138:7-12
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy face?
8 If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.
9 If I take my wings early in the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea:
10 Even there also shall thy hand lead me: and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 And I said: Perhaps darkness shall cover me: and night shall be my light in my pleasures.
12 But darkness shall not be dark to thee, and night shall be light all the day: the darkness thereof, and the light thereof are alike to thee.

Hope that helps. But I suspect that the scales on your friends have more to do with the teaching on the Eucharist than on God’s eternal nature. He may think that the Church cannot offer the same true Sacrifice that occurred on Calvary because we are in time. But all things are possible with God!

PS. Welcome home!

 

[Tiberius1701]

Excellent stuff, guys. Thanks. The issue of willfully ignoring God’s timelessness first came up years ago when arguing about Predestination, actually, so I’m pretty sure it’s not just because of his issues with the Real Presence.

Right now, we’re trying to get him to show us where Scripture teaches Sola Scriptura, so I don’t think we’ll be touching on this point for a little while, but I’ll take all the ammo I can get, since I think limiting God in this way is a major handicap in his thinking. I’ll obviously also welcome any prayers as I continue discussions with him.

 

[incense]

You might ask this on the philosophy list also.

I don’t have a solid enough grasp to explain it to others, but through reason alone, one can see that God is master of time. He is the “necessary being”. Everything else is dependant on him, or a “contingent being”.

Unless your friend is just being contrary, he needs to think a little more about who God is. I think he might enjoy being the master/definer of God thru his own interpretation/control of scripture, but even he might be unaware of his lack of obeisance.

 

[Mark77]

**Thank you, Prayer Warrior, for enlightening me; "Perhaps a way to say it would be “Time is inside of God” rather than “God is outside of time”.

That is a great way to express the Truth that everything we can comprehend is a mere infinitesimal fraction of the Infinite Love that God is.
**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[ryanoneil]

’But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day,’ (2 Peter 3:8).

How clearer could we be told that God is not subject to human time? Of course, God is necessarily aware of it and in fact He has ordained a time schedule for this earth, yet He Himself is not subject to any such schedule within His own existence. This verse is not saying that time just moves more slowly for God, it says that God inhabits eternity in which ‘a day’ and ‘a thousand years’ are pretty much meaningless terms! God is not subject to time’s restraints and he is not a slave to it.

How can Christ’s once for all sacrifice be applied to all those who lived and died before Christ’s Advent if God is bound by linear time?