Biblical defense of Catholic Church to Evangelicals

[JesustheSavior]

To mat16_18 before you talk about that we the protestants don’t have any martyrs please do some research and then tell the difference between one with the other.

I will invite you to visit the voice of the martyrs and there you can not only hear there voice but see there faces and what they are willing to do in the name of Jesus,those are the ones that one day He will say well done my falthful servant and give them the crown of life that He has promised to those that will be faithful to the end.
You will find names like Maulawi Assadullah in Afghanistan decapitated for preaching the bible,Khosoro Yusefi in Iran put in jail for preaching the gospel,in Kenya Simon Ndabi Kamore they found his head in the same place were he accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior and was preaching to others about the truth with out going far Kim Sun-Il in Iraq decapitated but before that not onlw he was there as a translator but a christian that preach the truth to those that were lost.
There thousands of this martyrs that are willing to give there life for Jesus they are willing to be persecuted,torture in His name can you really compare our martyrs to your’s??you know what matt??? i can wait to go to heaven to meet this courages people that die and went thru what they have endure just is His name they are willing to lay down there life so others will not perish
So…i am proud to call my self a christian or like you call us protestant because we decided to find the truth not follwed by what a church that has been plague by deceit,lies inmorality from the very beggining i will invite you to read more about the truth of the biggining of the so call church,reasearch before you talk tell you what just read the book a woman rides the beast by Dave Hunt learn what your church is not telling you or the millions of catholics that are blind by what people who are just as sinners as you and I are,are making you believe in.
I used to be one i thank God every day that i have found the truth and that now i am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ that is a gift that He was willing to give me to lay his life so i can one day be with Him.
I hope you find that truth one day too

 

[Hananiah]

Dave Hunt is an ignoramous. His work has absolutely no credibility and can be refuted with only a few hours of research. That you actually take his book as reliable history is a testament to your spiritual blindness. Unless you repent of your false gospel which insults the justice of God you will descend into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels, along with all the other heretics who have spat in God’s face throughout the ages, even those who gave their lives for the Name of Christ.

 

[JesustheSavior]

If that is the truth that he is what you claim…then explain to me the truth about the catholic church and the inquisition…kill people in the name of God???what about how the catholic church help nazis escape from Germany and lets not go far the Duce itself after all he did was still aceppted as a member of the catholic church,why did Hitler said that he kill millions of people in the name of this church??? and still was able to attend mass???what about the book of the priest name Charles Chiniquy that wrote 50 years in the church of Rome,are those lies too???
And please explain to me how the pope can call himself the vicar of Christ here when there is no mention of that in the bible that he has that title???or that it was giving to him by God???were in the bible say’s that a human can forgive my sins???read James 1:19 and then tell me how wrong i am,read the gospels and p(name removed by moderator)oint were does it say that the pope a priest is the way to the Father??? he might be what you callhim but the truth is out there just look fo it and then tell me how wrong i am and tell those that are dying in the name of Jesus not a church that sits in richness and does nothing…can you really tell me that was one of Jesus preachings???He himself that was the son of God came to earth in the most poorest of the places the son of the Almighty was born in a stable and this so call pope sits in the vatican full of treasures are you going to denied that???what about the indulgences were those a lie too???they sold indulgences so the church can become rich and that is not Dave Hunt saying them only there is the beggining of the Lutheran movement…that is history and that you can not denied.
Were in the bible once said that people got on there knees to kiss a ring in Jesus and the apostles hands???on the contrary Jesus himself wash his disciples feet showing us what humble meant.
Am i really the blind person over here???i don’t think so i know the truth i am not blinded by what a church tells me,were in the bible tells me that i have to pray to images???on the contrary God is very specific that He is the only one that we can do that explain to me Exodus 20:4-5 and most of the bible condems idolatry wich is something that your religion teaches and were in the bible says that Mary is more than Jesus and to pray to her???did Jesus ever taught that???i don’t recall no hail Mary in the bible or put Mary before our Lord Jesus if i am blind for that may God bless my ignorace but thing i am sure i am save by the blood of Jesus Christ because thru Him and only Him will i inherit heaven and not by my works but by His grace.

 

[theMutant]

I haven’t had the chance to read all of the posts in this thread yet but I thought I’d quickly recommend “A Textual Concordance of the Holy Scriptures” (possibly “Holy Bible”) available from TAN publishers. It is an excellent quick reference for a biblical defense of Catholic beliefs.

 

[JesusIsTheWay]

JesustheSavior:

If that is the truth that he is what you claim…then explain to me the truth about the catholic church and the inquisition…kill people in the name of God???what about how the catholic church help nazis escape from Germany and lets not go far the Duce itself after all he did was still aceppted as a member of the catholic church,why did Hitler said that he kill millions of people in the name of this church??? and still was able to attend mass???what about the book of the priest name Charles Chiniquy that wrote 50 years in the church of Rome,are those lies too???
And please explain to me how the pope can call himself the vicar of Christ here when there is no mention of that in the bible that he has that title???or that it was giving to him by God???were in the bible say’s that a human can forgive my sins???read James 1:19 and then tell me how wrong i am,read the gospels and p(name removed by moderator)oint were does it say that the pope a priest is the way to the Father??? he might be what you callhim but the truth is out there just look fo it and then tell me how wrong i am and tell those that are dying in the name of Jesus not a church that sits in richness and does nothing…can you really tell me that was one of Jesus preachings???He himself that was the son of God came to earth in the most poorest of the places the son of the Almighty was born in a stable and this so call pope sits in the vatican full of treasures are you going to denied that???what about the indulgences were those a lie too???they sold indulgences so the church can become rich and that is not Dave Hunt saying them only there is the beggining of the Lutheran movement…that is history and that you can not denied.
Were in the bible once said that people got on there knees to kiss a ring in Jesus and the apostles hands???on the contrary Jesus himself wash his disciples feet showing us what humble meant.
Am i really the blind person over here???i don’t think so i know the truth i am not blinded by what a church tells me,were in the bible tells me that i have to pray to images???on the contrary God is very specific that He is the only one that we can do that explain to me Exodus 20:4-5 and most of the bible condems idolatry wich is something that your religion teaches and were in the bible says that Mary is more than Jesus and to pray to her???did Jesus ever taught that???i don’t recall no hail Mary in the bible or put Mary before our Lord Jesus if i am blind for that may God bless my ignorace but thing i am sure i am save by the blood of Jesus Christ because thru Him and only Him will i inherit heaven and not by my works but by His grace.

WOOHOO!!! Amen to that!!!

Listen up people!! This is NOT fiction!! This is hidden and ignored truth!

 

[GoodME]

Hananiah:

The Catholic Church is a necessary means of salvation, and no one can be saved outside of her, with no exceptions. The only way to join the Catholic Church is through baptism.

I have not understood this to be the position of the Church. There is a page on this site that I believe covers this:

catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

It references the CCC 846 and 847, which describes a normative necessity for being Catholic to be saved, but does describe some “outs” that may be possible.

Wasn’t there a priest ex-communicated in the 1930’s (A famous cartoonist; his name escapes me) that continued to teach errantly that salvation was impossible outside the Church? Maybe I have my story confused?

Let me know what you think.

 

[DenRat]

JesustheSavior:

If that is the truth that he is what you claim…then explain to me the truth about the catholic church and the inquisition…kill people in the name of God???

Which inquisition? The first was in 1184 in southern France. The Roman Inquisition began in 1542. The Spanish Inquisition, began in 1478.

The inquisistion does not prove illigitimacy of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church contains all kinds of sinners and some have even held positions in high authority within the Church heirarchy. Read Acts 20:29 and Matt. 7:15 to see that Christ and Paul both warned us that there would be wolves among the Church leaders. Judas was the first of many.

Now, you may have been sold a bill of good about the numbers of people who were killed during the inquisition. However, many of those numbers have been exagerated by anti-Catholics. Actually, no one knows the exact number of people who were killed druing the three inquisistions but it is estimated to be in the thousands over several centuries. However, it is not, as some fundamentalists claim, 95 million because the population in the areas of the inquisition were no where near those numbers in that time of history.

What do you think the existence of the Inquisition demonstrates? That Catholics are sinners? Yes, we are. If we weren’t then we wouldn’t need Jesus Christ as our Savior. Do some people abuse their authority? Yes. Do some people become so zealous they go overboard? Yes. But these charges could be made about anyone or any faith or in any institution. That doesn’t make the institution wrong. Use the US Government as an example. Just because we had bad legislators, presidents, and judges, does that mean that our system of government is illigitimate?

It’s easy to see how those who led the Inquisitions could think their actions were justified. See Deuteronomy 17:2-5 where God commanded formal, legal inquiries (inquisitions) to be held to expose heresies.

(continued on next post)

 

[DenRat]

I don’t know of him. He’s probably a disgruntled ex-priest or disgruntled ex-Catholic. There are those. So, what is your point?

And please explain to me how the pope can call himself the vicar of Christ here when there is no mention of that in the bible that he has that title???

There is no mention in the bible of the Trinity but almost every Christian believes in the Trinity. Read Matt. 16:18-19 to see that Jesus built his church on Peter (Rock). Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. What he binds on earth is bound in Heaven. What Peter looses on earth is loosed in Heaven. This is clear authority Jesus gave to Peter. Like Jesus, Peter’s natural life on earth ended and he was succeeded by Linus, etc. all the way to Pope John Paul II today. Also see: John 21:17 that Peter is chief shepherd. All throughout Acts you will see Peter leading the crowds, heading meetings, etc. and is always mentioned first in the Gospels and in Acts when the apostles are mentioned by name.

or that it was giving to him by God???were in the bible say’s that a human can forgive my sins???read James 1:19 and then tell me how wrong i am,read the gospels and p(name removed by moderator)oint were does it say that the pope a priest is the way to the Father???

God forgives your sins but through a priest. Apostles were given authority by Jesus to forgive and retain sins. See John 20: 22-23, 2 Corinthians 5:17-20, James 5:13-16, and Matt. 16:19. I read James 1:19 and it says, “Know this, my dear brothers: everyone should be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath,…” What does this say to your objection to forgiveness of sins by confession to a priest?

he might be what you callhim but the truth is out there just look fo it and then tell me how wrong i am and tell those that are dying in the name of Jesus not a church that sits in richness and does nothing…can you really tell me that was one of Jesus preachings???He himself that was the son of God came to earth in the most poorest of the places the son of the Almighty was born in a stable and this so call pope sits in the vatican full of treasures are you going to denied that???

So the Vatican is built beautifully and has many one-of-a-kind, beautiful paintings and artifacts. Did you know that the Catholic Church is the biggest international charities to the poor?

what about the indulgences were those a lie too???they sold indulgences so the church can become rich and that is not Dave Hunt saying them only there is the beggining of the Lutheran movement…that is history and that you can not denied.

Again, see the response to the inquisition. There have been bad leaders in the Church but that doesn’t make the church invalid.

(continued on next post)

 

[DenRat]

Were in the bible once said that people got on there knees to kiss a ring in Jesus and the apostles hands???on the contrary Jesus himself wash his disciples feet showing us what humble meant.

We honor those who give their lives (not necessarily literally die but sacrifice family, material goods, etc.) to serve Christ, the Church, and all of us by their sacrifice. Did you never read about the woman who touched the hem of Jesus garment and was cured? How about the people who wanted to be in the shadow of Peter?

Am i really the blind person over here???i don’t think so i know the truth i am not blinded by what a church tells me,were in the bible tells me that i have to pray to images???

I don’t know where in the bible it tells you to pray to images. Catholics don’t. We have statues for saints we honor. It’s no different from having photos of family and friends and people we admire.

on the contrary God is very specific that He is the only one that we can do that explain to me Exodus 20:4-5 and most of the bible condems idolatry wich is something that your religion teaches and were in the bible says that Mary is more than Jesus and to pray to her???

Again, our bible (the one the Catholic Church canonized, BTW) doesn’t say that Mary is more than Jesus. We do honor the Blessed Virgin Mother as she points us to her son.

did Jesus ever taught that???i don’t recall no hail Mary in the bible

See Luke 1:28, 42, 48 (Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.) Very biblical.
We ask her to pray for us as we believe she is in Heaven and can ask her son to have mercy on our souls, especially when we die.

or put Mary before our Lord Jesus if i am blind for that may God bless my ignorace but thing i am sure i am save by the blood of Jesus Christ because thru Him and only Him will i inherit heaven and not by my works but by His grace.

Yes, Jesus died for our sins and I, too, hope to get to heaven by God’s gift of grace, though his son, Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. However, I don’t take it for granted because not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit heaven (Matt 7:21) and God will repay each of us according to our works (Rom 2:5-8). Therefore, I am working out my salvation one day at a time, knowing that only through God’s grace will I be able to even hope for eternal life in Heaven.

God Bless,
Denise

 

[Hananiah]

GoodME:

I have not understood this to be the position of the Church. There is a page on this site that I believe covers this:

That essay doesn’t draw the proper distinctions. It is true that some people who have not been formally initiated into the institutional Catholic Church can be saved. However such people absolutely must be made spiritual members of the Catholic Church through baptism. The title of that page “Salvation Outside the Church” is misleading, and I dare say heretical.

There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

It references the CCC 846 and 847, which describes a normative necessity for being Catholic to be saved, but does describe some “outs” that may be possible.

I’ll repeat the relevant portion of my previous post:

Where the teaching gets a bit complicated is with people who never hear the gospel and never really have an opportunity to accept or reject the Catholic Church, for example with people who live in predominantly Muslim countries. It is Catholic teaching that we can hold out hope that somehow God will make it possible for such persons to recieve a baptism by desire and thus join the Catholic Church and be saved. How He might do this is something we cannot know; perhaps He might send an angel or grant a vision, or He might just use something more mundane like the ordinary operation of grace on the soul. But the point is, such persons are led by God to embrace truth (even if they’re not exactly sure what it is) and reject error, and are not saved as Muslims, Buddhists, etc. but as Catholics (it is assumed that if such a person were to hear the gospel, he would exclaim “So THAT’s what I’ve been looking for!”)

Wasn’t there a priest ex-communicated in the 1930’s (A famous cartoonist; his name escapes me) that continued to teach errantly that salvation was impossible outside the Church? Maybe I have my story confused?

I believe you are referring to Fr. Feeney. What sets him and his followers apart from most orthodox Catholics is that they believe that sacramental water baptism is the only way to enter the Church. They do not believe that in extraordinary circumstances God will replace it with a baptism of blood or desire. Fr. Feeney was excommunicated not for this position per se, but for disobedience. The Holy Office did denounce his writings, but 20 years later he was canonically reinstated and the Holy Office explicitly allowed him and his followers to retain their rigorist interpretation of the dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

 

[metal1633]

JesustheSavior:

If that is the truth that he is what you claim…then explain to me the truth about the catholic church and the inquisition…kill people in the name of God???what about how the catholic church help nazis escape from Germany and lets not go far the Duce itself after all he did was still aceppted as a member of the catholic church,why did Hitler said that he kill millions of people in the name of this church??? and still was able to attend mass???what about the book of the priest name Charles Chiniquy that wrote 50 years in the church of Rome,are those lies too???

Yes they are lies.

 

[Hananiah]

JesustheSavior:

If that is the truth that he is what you claim…then explain to me the truth about the catholic church and the inquisition…kill people in the name of God???

Well, God commanded Inquisitions in the Old Testament:

"While Israel remained at Shittim, the people began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab. For they invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods. So Israel joined themselves to Baal of Peor, and the LORD was angry against Israel. The LORD said to Moses, 'Take all the leaders of the people and execute them in broad daylight before the LORD, so that the fierce anger of the LORD may turn away from Israel.’ So Moses said to the judges of Israel, ‘Each of you slay his men who have joined themselves to Baal of Peor’" (Numbers 25:1-5).

Here’s the principle: if someone starts preaching a false religion (whether Canaanite paganism or Protestantism) and leading the children of God astray and towards eternal damnation, it is the responsibility of the pastors of God’s flock to stop him. First and foremost they should attempt to convert and save the person who is preaching the false religion. Failing this, they should either cut off his means of communication or render his arguments impotent by educating the faithful about the fallacies of his reasoning, biblical exegesis, etc. But if even this fails and the false teacher is still leading souls to hell, the pastors might have no recourse but to execute him.

With regard specifically to the Spanish Inquisition, if you are getting your information from Dave Hunt you probably are grossly misinformed as to the number of people executed, and the brutality of the executions. The Spanish Inquisition was actually one of the most humane courts in Medieval Europe. It executed people only as a last resort. Only a few thousand people died.

what about how the catholic church help nazis escape from Germany

More lies. Don’t believe everything you read.

and lets not go far the Duce itself after all he did was still aceppted as a member of the catholic church,why did Hitler said that he kill millions of people in the name of this church??? and still was able to attend mass???

I’ll let Rabbi David Dalin answer this charge for me.

In critically assessing what actions Pius XII might have taken, but did not take, on behalf of the Jews of Europe, his defenders and critics alike point to his “failure” to excommunicate Hitler and other Nazi party leaders. Indeed, many of the Pope’s “defenders,” including this writer, wish (and believe) that papal excommunication should have at least been attempted. Such sentiments notwithstanding, there is abundant evidence to suggest that the excommunication of Hitler would have been a purely symbolic gesture, and would not have accomplished what its proponents hoped for. Hitler, Himmler and other Nazi leaders were, to be sure, baptized Catholics who were never excommunicated. Had Pius XII excommunicated them, his critics claim, such an act might have prevented the Holocaust, or significantly diminished it. On the contrary. There is much evidence to suggest that a formal order of excommunication might very well just have achieved the opposite.

 

[Hananiah]

When Don Luigi Sturzo, the founder of the Christian Democratic movement in wartime Italy, was asked by Leon Kubovny, an official of the World Jewish Congress during the Holocaust era, why the Vatican did not excommunicate Hitler, he recalled the cases of Napoleon and Queen Elizabeth I of England, “the last time a nominal excommunication was pronounced against a head of state.” Pointing out that neither of them had “changed their policy after excommunication,” he feared, Sturzo wrote Kubovny, “that in response to a threat of excommunication,” Hitler would have even killed more Jews than he had. Writers and scholars familiar with Hitler’s psychology share Sturzo’s fear, believing that any provocation by the Pope, such as an order for excommunication, “would have resulted in violent retaliation, the loss of many more Jewish lives, especially those then under the protection of the Church, and an intensification of the persecution of Catholics.” This is, I believe, a compelling argument that cannot be ignored. It is one, moreover, that is supported by the testimony of Jewish Holocaust survivors, such as Marcus Melchior, the former Chief Rabbi of Denmark, who attests that “if the Pope had spoken out, Hitler would probably have massacred more than six million Jews and perhaps ten times ten million Catholics, if he had the power to do so.”
catholicleague.org/pius/dalinframe.htm

what about the book of the priest name Charles Chiniquy that wrote 50 years in the church of Rome,are those lies too

I haven’t read the book, so I don’t know. If you would be so kind as to tell me what charges he makes against the Holy Catholic Church I would be more than happy to answer them.

 

[theMutant]

In addition to DenRat’s excellent points in response to JesusIsTheWay and JesusTheSavior, I would also add the question about all of those killed by Protestants. Sorry, but if you’re going to use sticks like the inquisition to beat us with you will find that those same sticks hit you back. The Reformers killed many in the name of God so, according to you, they obviously could not have been presenting the true faith as well, right? Catholics and others were killed in many Protestand countries after the Reformation. I am not justifying these actions, I’m simply pointing out that you are being logically inconsistent and that it is nothing new.

Do you claim that as Christians we must accept that there are only 66 books to the Bible and, specifically, only the 66 books in your bible? Can you name one passage of Scripture that teaches this? Can you name one passage of Scripture that lists the books we are to accept? By what authority do you make such a declaration? Why should I accept that the writing we call the Gospel of Matthew is one of the Gospels or that it was even written by someone named Matthew? By what Scriptural authority do you make such a claim?

 

[pacersFan]

theMutant:

Do you claim that as Christians we must accept that there are only 66 books to the Bible and, specifically, only the 66 books in your bible? Can you name one passage of Scripture that teaches this? Can you name one passage of Scripture that lists the books we are to accept? By what authority do you make such a declaration? Why should I accept that the writing we call the Gospel of Matthew is one of the Gospels or that it was even written by someone named Matthew? By what Scriptural authority do you make such a claim?

Very nice! It only takes a little research to discover how important the Catholic Church has been in the history of the Bible. In my opinion, a good place to start is “Where We Got the Bible… Our Debt to the Catholic Church” by Henry Grahm.

 

[steve_b]

JesustheSavior:

If that is the truth that he is what you claim…then explain to me the truth about the catholic church and the inquisition…kill people in the name of God???what about how the catholic church help nazis escape from Germany and lets not go far the Duce itself after all he did was still aceppted as a member of the catholic church,why did Hitler said that he kill millions of people in the name of this church??? and still was able to attend mass???what about the book of the priest name Charles Chiniquy that wrote 50 years in the church of Rome,are those lies too???
And please explain to me how the pope can call himself the vicar of Christ here when there is no mention of that in the bible that he has that title???or that it was giving to him by God???were in the bible say’s that a human can forgive my sins???read James 1:19 and then tell me how wrong i am,read the gospels and p(name removed by moderator)oint were does it say that the pope a priest is the way to the Father??? he might be what you callhim but the truth is out there just look fo it and then tell me how wrong i am and tell those that are dying in the name of Jesus not a church that sits in richness and does nothing…can you really tell me that was one of Jesus preachings???He himself that was the son of God came to earth in the most poorest of the places the son of the Almighty was born in a stable and this so call pope sits in the vatican full of treasures are you going to denied that???what about the indulgences were those a lie too???they sold indulgences so the church can become rich and that is not Dave Hunt saying them only there is the beggining of the Lutheran movement…that is history and that you can not denied.
Were in the bible once said that people got on there knees to kiss a ring in Jesus and the apostles hands???on the contrary Jesus himself wash his disciples feet showing us what humble meant.
Am i really the blind person over here???i don’t think so i know the truth i am not blinded by what a church tells me,were in the bible tells me that i have to pray to images???on the contrary God is very specific that He is the only one that we can do that explain to me Exodus 20:4-5 and most of the bible condems idolatry wich is something that your religion teaches and were in the bible says that Mary is more than Jesus and to pray to her???did Jesus ever taught that???i don’t recall no hail Mary in the bible or put Mary before our Lord Jesus if i am blind for that may God bless my ignorace but thing i am sure i am save by the blood of Jesus Christ because thru Him and only Him will i inherit heaven and not by my works but by His grace.

Each one of these charges could be answered very easily, one at a time. Are you ready to roll up your sleeves and discuss?