Biblical Discipline?

[maximus]

Biblical Discipline

My wife and I have started new discipline rules for our toddler and we have been relying on some methodologies from group that stresses discipline from a gentle approach, i.e. timeouts they are an evangelical group that list this approach as biblical. Personally, I do not fuss much about the term “biblical approach;” I guess is what people in the Evangelical world use as an “imprimatur”. Anyway, I was communicating via email with an Evangelical friend about this group since Evangelical circles tend to network widely with each other and I was curious if this person knew about this particular one. This person had recommended some resources and had a curious question about timeouts he asked if I considered them biblical? I was puzzled by the question and check briefly via the web the resources that were recommended. To make things sort it seems that in strict fundamentalist circles the term “biblical parenting” is associated with these verses from Proverbs 13:24, 22:15, 23:13, 23:14, and 29:15

He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child;
The rod of correction will drive it far from him.

Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.

You shall beat him with a rod
And deliver his soul from hell.

The rod and rebuke give wisdom,
But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.

So there is a sort of “biblical spanking” movement out there and I guess some of the main proponents are the Pearls http://gospeltruth.net/children/pearl_tuac.htm and a Dr. Ted Tripp http://www.booksonthepath.com/product/00237/ShepherdingaChildsHeart.aspx
I am curious what is known about them, I know the Pearls are somewhat controversial and a death might have been attributed to the use of their methodologies. Also if there is a Catholic equivalents of what may appear to be potentially an over the top ideology?

 

[monicatholic]

she spanks each child two or three times–usually with her hand on top of a diaper. Other than misaligning the child’s spine, it seems to have no effect.

When we speak of consistently rewarding every transgression with a switching (not a karate chop to the lower backbone), this mother can only see herself as further brutalizing children for whom it will do no good.

maximus,

we have ten kids. all of the smaller ones and most of the older ones are kind, considerate, get along well with others, are very helpful and responsible. our smaller children are obedient to us, while our older ones follow the fourth commandment by seeking our counsel and considering our guidance. i rarely say anything twice. (of our four adult kids, we’ve one adult son who needs round the clock prayer)

i’ve never had to spank a child still in diapers-- whether over the diapers (as the ineffective mom described above) or on a bare behind. though i nursed all but one of them and one was a biter, i never had to pull his hair to get him to stop biting, as the site suggests. when one of our babies at nine months reaches for her dad’s glasses, he removes the glasses and waits till baby is older to teach her, “no touch.”

i’m very uncomfortable with the sites consistent attempt to demonstrate a correlative between training a child and training an animal.

this sample sounds like madness to me. i never had to resort to such underhanded tactics to teach my children obedience. notice how the mother is (again) portrayed as a dope and the baby is portrayed as aggressor.

maximus, i’m uncertain if you’re considering this, but please don’t do this to your baby. tell your friends to reject these tactics.

The mother clumsily holds her cereal bowl at arms length as she wrestles her infant for supremacy. When she places the bowl out of the baby’s reach, he is taught it is off limits only if it is out of reach. To train him, place the bowl within easy reach. When he reaches out, say “No” and thump his hand. He will pull his hand back, momentarily look alarmed and again reach out. Repeat the process of saying “No” in a calm voice and thumping the hand. After several times, you can eat in peace.

When “No” and a thump occur simultaneously, several times, on different occasions, the voice command alone soon becomes sufficient to mold behavior. Again, keep in mind, the baby is not being punished, just conditioned. The thump is not a substitute rod. It is reinforcement to the obedience training.

to his own kid-- four months old. is this a joke?

One of our girls who developed mobility early had a fascination with crawling up the stairs. At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of “No” with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree.

Such was her fascination with climbing that four or five sessions had not made her stop. The thought of further spankings was disconcerting, so I conceived an alternative. After one more spanking, I laid the switch on the bottom step. We later observed her crawl to the stairs and start the ascent, only to halt at the first step and stare at the switch. She backed off and never again attempted to climb the stairs, even after the switch was removed.

what might have happened had baby girl continued to climb? an 18 inch switch of 1/2 inch diameter? what a vile solution. we used a baby gate. much more gentle and tremendously more reliable.

Jesus, who was alike to your baby and my baby in ALL things (except sin), must have been innocently explorative with an age-appropriate attention span, too. might Mary have switched his legs?

please maximus, reject your friend’s suggestions to these techniques. better to fly by the seat of your pants than to resort to this…

that evangelical baby raising (babywise etc.) commands such attention and respect from catholic parents is an astonishing and sad puzzle to me. try instead anything by Dr. Ray Guarendi or the Discipline Book by Dr. william Sears.

 

[maximus]

Thanks Monicathoic,

No way am I considering what appears to be child abuse under the guise of being so called “Biblical”, but I am curious about what opinions exist out there on the topic. My reaction to this is the same as yours. I have a three year old that my wife and I are in the process of teaching discipline, but with timeouts and non-violent methods. It was shocking to me coming across this stuff.

God Bless

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

COME WHEN I CALL YOU
One father tells of his training sessions with each new toddler. He sets aside an evening for “booty” camp, which is a boot camp for toddlers. The child of ten to twelve months is left alone to become deeply interested in a toy or some delightful object. From across the room or just inside the other room, the father calls the child. If he ignores the call, the father goes to him and explains the necessity of immediately coming when called, and then leads him to the father’s chair. The child thus led through these paces is being programmed.

He is returned to the toy and left alone long enough to again become engrossed. Another call, and, if no response, the father gives a patient explanation and demonstration of the desired response. The parent, having assured himself of the child’s understanding, once again sets up the situation and calls the child. This time, if there is not an immediate response the child is lightly spanked and lectured. The father continues this throughout the evening until the child readily and immediately responds to a summons. Thereafter, until the child leaves home, he is expected to drop everything and come upon the first call. As long as the parents remain consistent, the child will consistently obey. This “obedience training” is carried out in the utmost patience and concentration. The spanking should not be viewed as punishment, but as reinforcement to commands.

Oh my goodness. A 10 month old little baby does not have the attention span to be able to pay attention to a toy and a command by a father. What would be so wrong with the dad going over, picking up the child and giving the child affection and love instead of, “come hear or I’ll spank you”

And a lecture? To a 10 month old? Really? My seven year old gets glassy eyed at a lecture. Ten months.

I don’t like this at all…makes me sad.

Also the above scenario with the cereal bowl…It is so totally alien for me to not allow a child access to his own food. When my kids started solids, they had their own spoon they would wave around, and attempt to get it into the bowl. Both my children were pretty good at feeding themselves with a spoon and fork by the time they were 18 months old/

I would suggest running away from those websites…so sad

 

[Larowyn]

Wow, looks like child abuse is becoming more acceptable in some circles.

I think Sirach has a long explanation of how children should obey their parents, and it’s nothing like that.

 

[duskyjewel]

Holy ****! Hitting a four month old with a stick?! With anything?!

I am a user of and believer in appropriate spanking. This stuff is DISGUSTING.

I will never understand why some people are so invested in being at war with their children. Why, in particular, do some protestant/evangelical types get SO bound up in totally inappropriate expectations and punishments for even the youngest of children? And they attach God’s name to these atrocities… would this be where cynical young people with no use for religion come from? Reminds me of the Ezzos approach, and you know, NONE of their kids talk to them at all anymore?

This is not discipline or love. It is hatred, abuse, and control heaped upon the youngest and most innocent souls among us.

Can’t we reinstate firing squads? Seriously… some of these people… I weep to think why God might allow precious babies to face such things, but I suppose He has His reasons which are way above my intelligence. Free will is a gift, but we sure do make it a pernicious one sometimes…

 

[monicatholic]

maximus,

thank you for your reply.

discerning people MUST remember that these are not the only options:
inept parent/ reckless kid
OR
autocratic parent/ obedient kid.

God does NOT treat His children that way. I won’t treat His children that way, either.

 

[Thinks4Himself]

Obviously it was a crazy person who wrote the proverb, beat your kid with a rod and save him from hell…I refuse to accept God approves this nonsense, so why did he allow such junk to be placed in the bible when its obvious only the Fred Phelps types love this sickness?

Talk to any kid/adult who was raised like that and the odds 99.999% of the time they grow into people who HATE religion. So again, why did God allow this junk?

 

[Ruthie]

Sheesh.

Using the Bible as an excuse for child abuse… horrible. Jesus didn’t say, “Make the little ones suffer to come to Me.” What are these people thinking?

Sure, “spare the rod and spoil the child” has a bearing. But discipline does not mean violent punishment , either physically or mentally.

Those trained with violence will use violence to train.

Ruthie

 

[kevinsgirl]

Wow…those quotes made me tear up. I believe in discipline…but hitting a 4 month old with a switch?

 

[Larowyn]

Jesus would totally do that. IT’S IN THE BIBLE LOLZ

 

[Litcrit]

I haven’t had the courage to look at the sites, what little was cited here was enough to make me cry.

Isn’t the ‘rod’ supposed to be the directing tool that a shepherd uses? What shepherd hits his sheep? Would a shepherd hit a tiny little lamb? Aren’t children more precious and reasonable and likely to soon grow into being even more reasonable than LAMBS?

I can’t believe Christians are advocating this.

 

[puzzleannie]

knew I just read about this
Why I cannot spank my child. by Gregory Popcak
stophitting.com/religion/christian/10reasons.php
linked in recent (this week) answer to Catholic Q&A on EWTN re corporal punishment in schools, but principals he enunciates as basis for his idea of Christian teaching on spanking is right on the money, IMO. also links other articles and his site on related issues

here is full title
Ten Reasons I Can’t Spank
A Catholic Counselor’s Critical Examination
of Corporal Punishment

Gregory K. Popcak, MSW, LCSW
www.exceptionalmarriages.com

 

[monicatholic]

And they attach God’s name to these atrocities

these directives are a grave breach of the second commandment and a terrible misinterpretation of scripture.

maximus, tell your friend he’s wrong.

but maximus also asked for alternate books, websites etc. does anyone know of a book or website that, using Scripture, specifically AND credibly refutes these evil directives?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I haven’t had the courage to look at the sites, what little was cited here was enough to make me cry.

Isn’t the ‘rod’ supposed to be the directing tool that a shepherd uses? What shepherd hits his sheep? Would a shepherd hit a tiny little lamb? Aren’t children more precious and reasonable and likely to soon grow into being even more reasonable than LAMBS?

I can’t believe Christians are advocating this.

That is my understanding too. Such sad websites

 

[Thinks4Himself]

I haven’t had the courage to look at the sites, what little was cited here was enough to make me cry.

Isn’t the ‘rod’ supposed to be the directing tool that a shepherd uses? What shepherd hits his sheep? Would a shepherd hit a tiny little lamb? Aren’t children more precious and reasonable and likely to soon grow into being even more reasonable than LAMBS?

I can’t believe Christians are advocating this.

Because its in the BIBLE -so…why IS it in there? In the worded manner it is?

 

[monicatholic]

Thinks4Himself, please read the link provided above.

the Bible, Thinks4, can be misinterpreted and misrepresented-- especially if the reader asserts his freedom (and rightness) to interpret Scripture according to his own understanding.

Jesus gave to the Church the infallible charism to interpret Scripture. we Catholics know that, left to our own understaing, we could mess up Scripture interp. just as badly as the evangelical.

like the Ethiopian in Acts, who was presumeably a respected, trustworthy and very intelligent man as he was in charge of all the treasury belonging to the Ethiopian queen, we too need the Apostles, or those of Apostolic succession to help us interpret Scripture:

Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

“How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Acts 8: 30, 31

thanks for the helpful link, PuzzleAnnie. it should give Maximus something to work with when disputing the guy who pormoted the biblical discipline site.

 

[3Bambinos]

My understanding is that the Jewish view of the proverbial “rod” is that it is the shepard’s rod, meant to to indicate GUIDING the child, not BEATING the child. Because of this, most Orthodox Jews do not practice corporal punishment. That’s not what they understand the the OT to be advocating.

That “Biblical” parenting website makes me want to cry! I have a very spirited little one year old. I call him my monkey-baby, because he climbs on ANYTHING. I can not imagine spanking his cute little bottom! IMO kids should be kept from harming themselves and others, but apart from that, they should be encouraged to explore and be creative and nurtured. What does it say to a little baby when his or her mother spanks or swats them? Don’t try new things! Don’t explore! So sad…

 

[Chronister4673]

The most appropriate bible verses I can think of when getting a child to obey are the verses in Luke after they found Jesus in the temple.

Luke 2:51 Then he wend down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them. His mother treasured all these things in her heart.

I tell the kids, “Look, Jesus is GOD and he obeyed his mother and foster father. Don’t you think he did that to show you that you should obey your parents?”

Now my kids are older than the infants that are being talked about in the previous posts, but really at that age re-direction is a much better tool than corporal discipline. If you’re looking for a really good Evangelical discipline tactic, I recommend a strategy called tomato staking. The site for Raising Godly Tomatoes has an excellent description of the process at raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch07.asp . This site, unfortunately also advocates spanking, but I take the good and leave the bad. Read about keeping your small children close, and leave the rest behind.

I hope it’s helpful to hear about this method.

 

[kage_ar]

If you run a search, you will see that this “school” (I use that term so very loosly) of teaching has been discussed at lenght here before. It is a sad distortion of what a loving family should be.