Biblical Evidence for Great Apostasy and Restoration? (Mormons)

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CAF Mormons, is there biblical evidence for a Great Apostasy of the Church established by Jesus Christ anciently, as well as a restoration of that Church? Also, how do Mormons deal with the oft-quoted Matt 16:18, which states that the gates of hell will not prevail?

Please lets keep this thread charitable and on topic so that it won’t be closed. 😃
 
CAF Mormons, is there biblical evidence for a Great Apostasy of the Church established by Jesus Christ anciently, as well as a restoration of that Church? Also, how do Mormons deal with the oft-quoted Matt 16:18, which states that the gates of hell will not prevail?

Please lets keep this thread charitable and on topic so that it won’t be closed. 😃
Apostasy and Restoration
 
The following is a direct passage from the link provided:
The Apostasy was more of a process than an event.
Which still begs the question: Where are the historical writings by any church leader at any time during this process strongly confirming such a great process occurred against Christ Church? I have yet to read a single shred of historical evidence by anyone during the past 2,000 years,let alone being exhaustive.
That can be illustrated with an analogy. If you cut someone’s head off, he still has his limbs and torso, but they are lifeless and he cannot use them. It takes time for the rest of his body to decompose and crumble to the earth. The same is true of the church. When the head was cut off, the organizational structure that the Apostles had left behind still existed, and it took time for it to degenerate into something completely alien to it. Paul in fact compares the church to a human body, where every limb is necessary for it to function properly.
Which means Christ was weak and a failure and the HS never came upon the Apostles at Pentecost.
However, since the critics often insist that we should put a date on the Apostasy, that is also possible by coming to an intelligent approximation—just as historians attempt to put an intelligent date on the fall of the Roman Empire.
But the big difference is that there are plenty of ancient sources over the years clearly showing a decline in the West. Due to wars,famine,internal and external forces, and hyper-inflation,etc,etc.On the contrary, as stated, I have yet to read ONE person or persons writing about the slow and gradual apostasy which was taking place.
If I had to put a date on the Apostasy, I would say that it occurred when the last Apostle died, or when his ministry in the church was terminated. That is when the priesthood authority was lost.
And yet there is nothing empirical or substantial to support such a process against Christ Church.
 
I would believe in the great apostasy if I found mostly evil within the Catholic Church along with a rejection of Jesus. . But I have found Christ in the Catholic Church in so many ways, …in my life through the Church, so in no way could I accept the great apostasy. No way! Anyway it has way to many flaws, just hearsay for those who desire a certain earthy power.

I once told two Mormon Missionaries that the great apostasy is each one of us each and every day when we do not place Jesus above our very selves. Of course this makes sense to a Christian since Jesus is God the eternal Son and because there is only One God. The difference between us and God to a Christian is that God is Love itself, we get to share in His love as adopted sons and daughters. Jesus will always have a position that we will never attain other than sharing in His sole position. We call it the great Gift to Creation, The reason we have His church is to bring us out of apostasy. Out of our selfish selves into Him. Only Jesus can accomplish this, has already accomplished this. Its about who chooses to live in His Victory over Satan, in and through Him…our Lord and ourGod.

It was truth that led me to become Catholic, truth that does not change or have to be justified. The church is solid as a rock and this can be easily discerned by authentic truth seekers sucb as Newt Gingrich as of late. He is a History buff. . Makes perfect sense.

2000 years of people like this had a huge part in my conversion. To think that the LDS church would not include men like this when they speak about an apostacy is mind blowing once you get to know men and women like this who placed Jesus as the center of their lives.
http://utahmission.com/pages/cJouges_page.html

You cannot sweep them under a rug…2000 years of them bringing Christ to the people in need. Plus the fact that the Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization on the face of the earth as it is Christ Himself to the people. The LDS Church is not the true church, this can easily be discerned for the truth seeker. Yet every one in the LDS church is loved just as much as anyone else. No one has a lock on the amount of Gods love. The LDS church is built on transactions, being caught up in transactions is not from God yet it can appear very good. As Catholics we can and do discover a place where there is no transactions. Just a free gift that is to be accepted with nothing given back accept our souls to Him. It is a place of true peace. Where we come to know our nothingness and the gift that is given as if were so special in the heart of God. We are

When Mormons speak about the great apostasy it is hard as there is a blindness to what this is all about. There is no special breed of people. Just sinners, Christ and the cross.
Rich
www.utahmission.com
 
Your quotes from Isaiah are interesting. For example:

"There are plenty, both in scripture as well as in history. The apostasy was prophesied of in the Bible. The Prophet Isaiah spoke of a day when “darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people” (Isaiah 60:2). "

When we go back to Isaiah 60, beginning with verse 1, we see this:
**
1Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

2For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

3And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. **

So are you saying that Isaiah 60 is talking about an apostasy of the Church? Who is the “thee” referred to in verse 2, and what is verse 1 saying that “the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee”? To me, this is not talking about a future apostasy of the Church at all.

Also, how do you understand Amos 3:7 (“Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”) in the context of Hebrews 1:1-2 ( *1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;*"), which shows a contrast in how God spoke in the past (“unto the fathers by the prophets”) and the last days (“spoken unto us by his Son”)?

Finally, who is the “man of sin…the son of perdition” referred to in 2 Thess 2:3 (“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”)

Thanks.
 
Your quotes from Isaiah are interesting. For example:

"There are plenty, both in scripture as well as in history. The apostasy was prophesied of in the Bible. The Prophet Isaiah spoke of a day when “darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people” (Isaiah 60:2)."

When we go back to Isaiah 60, beginning with verse 1, we see this:
**1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.**

So are you saying that Isaiah 60 is talking about an apostasy of the Church? Who is the “thee” referred to in verse 2, and what is verse 1 saying that “the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee”? To me, this is not talking about a future apostasy of the Church at all.
The whole of Isaiah 60 is not about the Apostasy. I never said that it was. Isaiah 60 is about the redemption of Zion in the latter days. “Thee” in verses 1 and 2 refers to, or addresses, Zion in the latter days, which we identify with the Restored Church. Verse 2 says that this restoration, or redemption, will take place at a time when “darkness shall cover the earth,” which refers to the state of the world in its apostate condition.
Also, how do you understand Amos 3:7 (“Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”) in the context of Hebrews 1:1-2 (*1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;*"), which shows a contrast in how God spoke in the past (“unto the fathers by the prophets”) and the last days (“spoken unto us by his Son”)?
Amos 3:7 implies that God chooses to always work through His prophets to operate among mankind; and where there are no prophets, an apostasy of some kind has taken place. Hebrews 1:1-2 does not mean that God has done away with prophets. It means just what it says: that whereas up to that time God had spoken through His prophets, at that time God has sent someone greater than previous prophets, which was His Son. It didn’t mean that there should be no more prophets. Jesus also was a prophet, as well as being someone greater than a prophet.
Finally, who is the “man of sin…the son of perdition” referred to in 2 Thess 2:3 (“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”)
The “man of sin” evidently refers to some anti-Christ who will appear in the world at some stage at the end time, whose identity is not clearly revealed.
 
Originally Posted by CatholicGuyNY %between%
Your quotes from Isaiah are interesting. For example:

"There are plenty, both in scripture as well as in history. The apostasy was prophesied of in the Bible. The Prophet Isaiah spoke of a day when “darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people” (Isaiah 60:2)."

When we go back to Isaiah 60, beginning with verse 1, we see this:
1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.


This is no doubt speaking about Jesus, how the gentiles will be included. About His coming, His teaching, His Passion, death and glorious resurrection…His Catholic Church will spread this good news to all nations. This is the restoration. You can’t steal this and bear false witness about His Church. Your Church is breaking the Commandments (bearing false witness) in this. I beleive you already know this, can face it, and choose it willingly. What Jesus did on the cross for us is not a game to us. Its very much real and very much alive. Striaight foreward. No Spin

*. *

*Deeply In Christ *
 
Hegesippus is quoted by Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History 150 AD
the church continued until then as a pure virgin and uncorrupt virgin: whilst if there were any at all attempted to pervert the sound doctrine of the saving gospel, they were yet skulking in dark retreats; but when the sacred choir of apostles became extinct, and the generation of those that had been privileged to hear their inspired wisdom had passed away, then also the combination of impious errors arose by fraud and delusions of false teachers. These also, as there were none of the apostles left, henceforth attempted, without shame to preach their false doctrine against the gospel of truth
 
The operative word there is “attempted”. If you would really read Eusebius (instead of downloading out-of-context quotes from anti-Catholic websites), you would see that he understood that the Catholic Church is Jesus’ own Church, and the heretics Eusebius wrote about could never subvert the true gospel.
 
The operative word there is “attempted”. If you would really read Eusebius (instead of downloading out-of-context quotes from anti-Catholic websites), you would see that he understood that the Catholic Church is Jesus’ own Church, and the heretics Eusebius wrote about could never subvert the true gospel.
Me? Really read? I could teach a class on it…if only I had the time. Sigh…

The question is not whether Eusebius believed that. Of course he did. Why would you think I thought otherwise? The quote reflects Hegesippus and his view.
Therefore was the Church called a virgin, for she was not as yet corrupted by worthless teaching
Is this better reflection of what Hegesippus believed…after all…that is who we are talking about.
 
The whole of Isaiah 60 is not about the Apostasy. I never said that it was. Isaiah 60 is about the redemption of Zion in the latter days. “Thee” in verses 1 and 2 refers to, or addresses, Zion in the latter days, which we identify with the Restored Church. Verse 2 says that this restoration, or redemption, will take place at a time when “darkness shall cover the earth,” which refers to the state of the world in its apostate condition.
The torture to which you subject this verse by reading it in reference to a restored Christian Church after a period of complete apostasy is seen from its immediate preceding context:

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. (Is. 59:20-21)

Verse 59:21 should make it very hard to read a total apostasy into 60:1-2, because it teaches of the proclamation of Christ throughout all generations. While that does not in itself formally contradict the Great Apostasy, it does put constraint on whether we should jump to the conclusion that any form of total loss should be read into the very next verses. We are here reminded of God’s covenant fidelity, of the persistence of the gospel message through all time, and should interpret the following verses in that light. Given such context, why is it natural to understand the “darkness” in 60:2 in referred to a complete lack of priesthood authority or anything else for that matter? Since we have just been assured that the darkness will not eclipse the proclamation of the coming messiah, there is no warrant to assume that is does eclipse anything else, let alone the priesthood, which is not even a topic of discussion here.

Of course, to even make the above argument grants you more than you deserve, because there is specific evidence in the rest of the preceding context to interpret the darkness in reference to pre-Christian Israel, in Isaiah’s own time, who speaks as follows to the Israelites of his day:

Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness. None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. (59:1-4)

After a few more verses of this kind of teaching, Isaiah explains the darkness:

Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but* we walk in darkness**. We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men. * (59:9-10)

The darkness then, which the coming of the Redeemer dispels, is not a future apostasy, but a present state of ignorance. Despite the strength of the language used to describe Israel’s present darkness, it is evident that a state of total apostasy is not in existence, for the simple reason that Isaiah is there prophesying these things. The text tells a story not just about an apostasy, but about an authoritative teacher living during the apostasy, a teacher whose words do not fail.

Even if we granted you the liberty of applying this verse typologically to the Christian Church – which is a valid possibility – consistency would demand a typological application of the Isaiah’s active presence during the apostasy as well, thereby undermining the LDS argument. In fact, the citation of Is 60:2 in D&C 112:23 refers in the present tense to a time *after *the Restoration, in which a prophet is alive as well.
Amos 3:7 implies that God chooses to always work through His prophets to operate among mankind; and where there are no prophets, an apostasy of some kind has taken place. Hebrews 1:1-2 does not mean that God has done away with prophets. It means just what it says: that whereas up to that time God had spoken through His prophets, at that time God has sent someone greater than previous prophets, which was His Son. It didn’t mean that there should be no more prophets. Jesus also was a prophet, as well as being someone greater than a prophet.
You overstate the Catholic position. What Hebrews 1:1-2 shows is not that there are no more prophets (since more books of the Bible were written after Hebrews) but rather that Jesus, by virtue of being the Son, fulfills all prophecy in his very person, simply by being the Son of God among us. That is the sense in which he is the definitive prophet, not because he receives the greatest revelation for us, but because he himself is the thing revealed, embodying all revelation and literally showing us the Father. This brings to an end the period in which the diverse speech of prophets is a normative way for God to speak, the period in which Amos lived. It is thus a false standard to assume that continuance of prophecy is a necessary element in the human administration of the Church. That the Pope does not claim to be a prophet is hence not evidence against Catholicism. Christ’s headship of the Church in itself constitutes the fullness of prophecy.
 
The torture to which you subject this verse by reading it in reference to a restored Christian Church after a period of complete apostasy is seen from its immediate preceding context:
Isaiah by all accounts is not an easy book to understand or to interpret, and you and I could be arguing forever about the rights and wrongs of its interpretation without ever coming to an agreement; and I would rather not go down that road.
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. (Is. 59:20-21)
Verse 59:21 should make it very hard to read a total apostasy into 60:1-2, because it teaches of the proclamation of Christ throughout all generations.
The mistake you are making here is that you are trying to read Isaiah as though it were a continuous narrative, which it isn’t.
While that does not in itself formally contradict the Great Apostasy, it does put constraint on whether we should jump to the conclusion that any form of total loss should be read into the very next verses. We are here reminded of God’s covenant fidelity, of the persistence of the gospel message through all time, and should interpret the following verses in that light. Given such context, why is it natural to understand the “darkness” in 60:2 in referred to a complete lack of priesthood authority or anything else for that matter? Since we have just been assured that the darkness will not eclipse the proclamation of the coming messiah, there is no warrant to assume that is does eclipse anything else, let alone the priesthood, which is not even a topic of discussion here.
Of course, to even make the above argument grants you more than you deserve, because there is specific evidence in the rest of the preceding context to interpret the darkness in reference to pre-Christian Israel, in Isaiah’s own time, who speaks as follows to the Israelites of his day:
Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness. None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. (59:1-4)
After a few more verses of this kind of teaching, Isaiah explains the darkness:
Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but* we walk in darkness***. We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men. (59:9-10)
The darkness then, which the coming of the Redeemer dispels, is not a future apostasy, but a present state of ignorance. Despite the strength of the language used to describe Israel’s present darkness, it is evident that a state of total apostasy is not in existence, for the simple reason that Isaiah is there prophesying these things. The text tells a story not just about an apostasy, but about an authoritative teacher living during the apostasy, a teacher whose words do not fail.
The two “darkness”es mentioned in 59:9 and 60:2 refer to two different things. They don’t refer to the same phenomenon. In 59:9 it refers to the chastisement of Zion in her exiled condition, which the Lord allowed to come upon them because of their transgressions. In 60:2 it refers to the redemption of Zion from her exiled condition at the time when the rest of the world is in a darkened state of Apostasy.

Continued … /
 
/… Continued
Even if we granted you the liberty of applying this verse typologically to the Christian Church – which is a valid possibility – consistency would demand a typological application of the Isaiah’s active presence during the apostasy as well, thereby undermining the LDS argument. In fact, the citation of Is 60:2 in D&C 112:23 refers in the present tense to a time after the Restoration, in which a prophet is alive as well.
Interesting that you should mention that. From a Mormon perspective, the citation of Isaiah 60:2 in D&C 112:23 is the definitive proof that it refers to the apostasy. It describes the state of the world at the time of the Restoration, and indeed after it. “Darkness” (meaning spiritual darkness) still covers the earth as a result of the Apostasy, notwithstanding the “light” that has burst upon the world as a consequence of the Restoration. Since you were knowledgeable enough about LDS doctrine to quote that scripture, allow me to quote you another passage from the D&C that is actually an inspired translation of a New Testament passage, and is a prophecy about the Restoration:

D&C 45:

27 And the love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound.
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;
29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.
30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That “darkness” unfortunately still “convers the earth,” notwithstanding the Restoration, because they “receive not the light”.
You overstate the Catholic position. What Hebrews 1:1-2 shows is not that there are no more prophets (since more books of the Bible were written after Hebrews) …
Well, I was responding to his post, in which that was the meaning he appear to put on that scripture.
… but rather that Jesus, by virtue of being the Son, fulfills all prophecy in his very person, simply by being the Son of God among us.
I don’t agree that Jesus fulfilled “all” of prophecy in His person. There are many prophecies (both Old and New Testament prophecies) whose fulfillment still lies in the future. Jesus didn’t fulfill all of those. But He did fulfill the Law of Moses. That would be a true statement to make.
That is the sense in which he is the definitive prophet, not because he receives the greatest revelation for us, but because he himself is the thing revealed, embodying all revelation and literally showing us the Father. This brings to an end the period in which the diverse speech of prophets is a normative way for God to speak, the period in which Amos lived. It is thus a false standard to assume that continuance of prophecy is a necessary element in the human administration of the Church. That the Pope does not claim to be a prophet is hence not evidence against Catholicism. Christ’s headship of the Church in itself constitutes the fullness of prophecy.
That is something that we might disagree with. After the death of Christ the Christian Church was led by the Twelve Apostles, who were also prophets, and had a direct hotline by prophetic revelation with God. There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that that should come to an end.
 
The mistake you are making here is that you are trying to read Isaiah as though it were a continuous narrative, which it isn’t.
A point of order here. From what Bible did the Mormons use to derive their interpretations of Old and New Testament Scripture? That would be a King James Bible.

Did you know that the modern chapter and verse parsing found in Bibles today was NOT present in any text until around 1560?

That is in dispute with the Great Apostasy because (1) *someone in authority *was present to make decisions on the Bible’s indexing and (2) all Christian faiths adopted this nomenclature. Further, (3) someone still in authority after John’s death compiled the Scriptures we venerate, starting around 393.

The Bible is not a collection of soundbites as chapter/verse numbering would have many believe. In fact, that was impossible until 1560. Before then, the Scriptures were read as a collective narrative for centuries and still is in orthodox circles of Christianity. Otherwise it is very, very easy to take Scripture totally out of context.

To accept the Great Apostasy is to fully reject Scripture, which was compiled in written form centuries after John and centuries before Mormonism. If not the Catholic Church, what Christian authority does a Mormon accept that “kept the pieces together” until Mr. Smith went to New York?
 
I have said it before and I will say it again…for there to be the Apostasy that Mormons need, Jesus would have to be a weak, cruel, liar.

I cannot accept that.

If one looks at Christian History from Jesus till now, you will find plenty of evidence that God still controlled His Church.

True, you will also find plenty of evidence that man sometimes ignored God’s will and sinned…but God still controlled.

When Gos makes a promise, He keeps it. He never gave up on his chosen people. Even when they rejected him.

God did not desert us. He did not leave us.

The Apostasy that the Mormons need never happened.
 
Mr. More
Was God weak, cruel and a liar in the Old Testament? God clearly showed the Hebrews and they still ignored him. Thats biblical. The “gates of hell” has nothing to do with doctrinal error. How could it? Its soteriological.
Look, the issue is your interpretation of Matthew not Christ’s words. Your approach is emotional but it lacks clarity and ignores the rest of scripture. Several churches in Revelation had committed apostasy before John was even dead. Thats a fact. Your interpretation of what Christ said would happen is the problem. But he warned us of this!
 
I have said it before and I will say it again…for there to be the Apostasy that Mormons need, Jesus would have to be a weak, cruel, liar.
I cannot accept that.

If one looks at Christian History from Jesus till now, you will find plenty of evidence that God still controlled His Church.

True, you will also find plenty of evidence that man sometimes ignored God’s will and sinned…but God still controlled.

When Gos makes a promise, He keeps it. He never gave up on his chosen people. Even when they rejected him.

God did not desert us. He did not leave us.

The Apostasy that the Mormons need never happened.

Thanks Sir Thomas….
The evidence for me would be my own journey to Christ by going directly to the RCIA to learn first hand what Catholics believed by Catholics.
This is the way it really should be done.

One year later after most of my questions had been asked and answered, with an exit sign above the door I stayed and was baptized.

I found my savior there coming through many of theCatholics including the many Saints I studied. 2000 years of them. It is where my relationship with Christ really took off.

The humility found in this Church, at its core is very humbling and real. As one recent convert said its almost too much Jesus 24/7. The Great Apostasy makes absolutely no sense at all. Like those who promote it are better breed of people, smarter. I don’t want to come off harsh here but grow up just came to mind. If you make an honest study of Catholic History you will not find a total apostasy. You have to know this.

Its easy to point at others, harder to look into the mirror, face to face with such a sinner as myself. Yet Christ becomes larger when one can do this. With Jesus, the Mass, Eucharist, Confession, our Mother, the Communion of Saints all of the dots came together for me. It all forms the One Body of Christ. I heard it once explained like this: You have this beautiful stained glass window with 7 marvelous panes. You feel blessed to have it all. Other sects have removed some of the panes missing the wisdom of the complete 7. I have found Jesus and I found him in the Catholic church. I understand the Holy Trinity in a way that I can sense it much better than I could ever explain it. I understand the importance of Confession because I have witnessed its power from Christ, how it has changed me regarding my own sin, in knowing that in spite of my fallen nature Jesus loves me like no other lover. I have the Crucifix to ponder that keeps me looking straight ahead. My Church is a garden that contains both good grain and weeds. Both are in me, I know this. Its why I attend Mass. Making a charge of Apostasy from what Christ established goes right down with bearing false witness along with Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You can continue to hide behind what you have been taught and believe in this second hand gossip or you can do what I I myself did. Walk into the Catholic Church and start asking questions face to face.

“True, you will also find plenty of evidence that man sometimes ignored God’s will and sinned…but God still controlled.

When God makes a promise, He keeps it. He never gave up on his chosen people. Even when they rejected him.

God did not desert us. He did not leave us.”

This is why I make Crosses here in Utah, on the crossbeam it reads “I AM with you always”
I am Catholic and I very much know He is with me. Without Him I would be nothing. Not nothing like it is something…….I mean nothing!
Rich
www.chooseyourcross.com
 
A point of order here. From what Bible did the Mormons use to derive their interpretations of Old and New Testament Scripture? That would be a King James Bible.
True.
Did you know that the modern chapter and verse parsing found in Bibles today was NOT present in any text until around 1560?
Okay, and how does that affect the discussion I was having?
That is in dispute with the Great Apostasy because (1) *someone in authority *was present to make decisions on the Bible’s indexing
Not necessarily; why should it?
and (2) all Christian faiths adopted this nomenclature.
I am not sure that they all did; but let’s suppose they did; that proves what?
Further, (3) someone still in authority after John’s death compiled the Scriptures we venerate, starting around 393.
Again, not necessarily. What constitutes scripture had been pretty well established as a matter of tradition among Christians long before that date. The councils merely ratified or formalized what Christians had been regarding as scripture by popular tradition for centuries earlier.
The Bible is not a collection of soundbites as chapter/verse numbering would have many believe. In fact, that was impossible until 1560. Before then, the Scriptures were read as a collective narrative for centuries and still is in orthodox circles of Christianity. Otherwise it is very, very easy to take Scripture totally out of context.
In my discussion with Soren I was referring specifically to that passage of Isaiah he was discussing, not the whole of the Bible. That passage is poetry, it is not meant to be read like a narrative story. Whether it is divided up into chapters and verses or not is irrelevant. The chapter and verse divisions are convenient for reference purposes. Nobody thinks of chapters and verses in the Bible as though they were autonomous units.
To accept the Great Apostasy is to fully reject Scripture, which was compiled in written form centuries after John and centuries before Mormonism.
That is a common argument brought by Catholics that has never made much sense to me.
If not the Catholic Church, what Christian authority does a Mormon accept that “kept the pieces together” until Mr. Smith went to New York?
The Catholic Church! The Catholic Church is a respectable and honorable institution that has preserved the scriptures and many Christian values, doctrines, and traditions over the centuries; and deserves credit for doing that. But it does not prove that they had the authority and the priesthood that they claimed.
 
True.

Okay, and how does that affect the discussion I was having?

Not necessarily; why should it?

I am not sure that they all did; but let’s suppose they did; that proves what?

Again, not necessarily. What constitutes scripture had been pretty well established as a matter of tradition among Christians long before that date. The councils merely ratified or formalized what Christians had been regarding as scripture by popular tradition for centuries earlier.

In my discussion with Soren I was referring specifically to that passage of Isaiah he was discussing, not the whole of the Bible. That passage is poetry, it is not meant to be read like a narrative story. Whether it is divided up into chapters and verses or not is irrelevant. The chapter and verse divisions are convenient for reference purposes. Nobody thinks of chapters and verses in the Bible as though they were autonomous units.

That is a common argument brought by Catholics that has never made much sense to me.

The Catholic Church! The Catholic Church is a respectable and honorable institution that has preserved the scriptures and many Christian values, doctrines, and traditions over the centuries; and deserves credit for doing that. But it does not prove that they had the authority and the priesthood that they claimed.
Let’s see…do I bleieve Jesus, who gave the authority to what is now known as the Catholic Church or do I believe Joseph, a convicted con man? hmmmmm…what a dilemma!
 
Here are a couple observations I have as a Catholic who came out of Mormonism and lives in Utah. In Salt Lake the homeless are sent from the LDS temple away, up the hill to the Catholic Church where they have access to our Cathedral and food. In Logan Utah the homeless or those struggling who are not LDS members are sent to our Church to find help, relief. As a community each week we have a charity collection for those knocking on our door. Whom ever they may be. This is simply Gods work, we are called to step aside, to allow Him to work. Just this tells me I am in the right place as it is the way it should be, normal. At every corner I have found this truth in the Church, not something I struggle with as I once did.

How is it that a Church that Apostatized after the death of John is the largest charitable organization on the face of the earth with over 1 billion members? The LDS want to focus on the weeds within the church while denying the existence of the Most Holy Spirit. Even the LDS God bless them send relief through the Catholic Missions, even to those who are not LDS. Places where they do not want to risk the mortal family, life and limb. The Catholic Church is there…. Understandable.

Here in Utah we have refuges who have come from areas in struggle. Catholic Charities helps them find a home and then helps with rent for 1-2 months. They also have connections with companies that will hire them soon after they arrive. No church affiliation is ever established. This is the work of Christ, how it should be, how it is within His Body the Church.
At every corner I have found this truth in the Church, not something I struggle with as I once did before I became Catholic.

As to the many Catholics going about Gods work, don’t thank them or ridicule them, they are nothing more than workers in the vineyard, a link in the higher cause as its all about Jesus, about Him and what he does, what He can do. (Trinity)

As you speak about this Apostasy think about whom is on your side. The Catholic Church is not built on the fall of another Church, its built because we are all fallen. You have the freedom to continue on, to choose. Open your eyes as to what you fight against. A simple search regarding Catholic Charities should be convincing to those with open hearts, open minds, open to truth without all of those transactions.

A study of the Saints at catholiconline could be important. The light shining for those 2000 years piercing the darkness, leading them to the cross. You have to look at all of the good rather than focusing on the bad. As a people being saved we are both. This is realty, this is truth upon which I am writing. It’s a place of peace even when there is none.

Search engine
us.yhs.search.yahoo.com/avg/search?fr=yhs-avg-chrome&type=yahoo_avg_hs2-tb-web_chrome_us&p=catholic+charities

God Bless
www.utahmission.com
 
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