Biblical evidence Peter no Pope

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allischalmers

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I know everyone is going to jump on this one but here go’s. According to Jewish custom at the Passover meal (and in this case the Last Supper in the upper room), the person of most importence sat at the right hand of and next to the host preceeding around the table to the right by each person of lesser importence with the person of least importence on the left of the host. John 13:23 tells us that John wes the one sitting a Jesus (who was the Host) right side.
So if Peter was all that importent would not he be the one sitting next to Jesus on his right

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
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allischalmers:
So if Peter was all that importent would not he be the one sitting next to Jesus on his right
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Jesus had already told the apostles the first would be last and the last would be first. Was he just re-emphasizing that lesson?
 
My first inclination is to laugh hysterically, but I’ll take you seriously just to show that this isn’t what the Bible says but what you (or someone else) have invented. The passage to which you refer is John 13:23-25:
One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was lying close to the breast of Jesus; so Simon Peter beckoned to him and said, “Tell us who it is of whom he speaks.” So lying thus, close to the breast of Jesus, he said to him, “Lord, who is it?”
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There is no mention of who was sitting on Jesus’ left or right. And no reference to anyone’s position in any of the other Gospel accounts. So, bang! goes your theory. :rolleyes:
 
St. John is usually identified as the “disciple whom Jesus loved.” If he IS in that position, it would seem to indicate that ultimately it is divine love and not necessarily the holding of legitimate (divinely-held) authority to govern that brings one closest to God.
 
Hmmm, let’s see here. You will accept “Jewish custom” to prove that Peter wasn’t the Pope, but you won’t accept 2000 years of Christian Tradition that says that he was?

This is me throwing my hands up in the air!

Forever Christ’s.
Jane Frances
 
Biblical Evidence Otherwise (thanks to Mr. Armstrong)
The Catholic doctrine of the papacy is biblically-based, and is derived from the evident primacy of St. Peter among the apostles. Like all Christian doctrines, it has undergone development through the centuries, but it hasn’t departed from the essential components already existing in the leadership and prerogatives of St. Peter. These were given to him by our Lord Jesus Christ, acknowledged by his contemporaries, and accepted by the early Church. The biblical Petrine data is quite strong and convincing, by virtue of its cumulative weight, especially for those who are not hostile to the notion of the papacy from the outset. This is especially made clear with the assistance of biblical commentaries. The evidence of Holy Scripture (RSV) follows:
  1. Matthew 16:18: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”
The rock (Greek, petra) referred to here is St. Peter himself, not his faith or Jesus Christ. Christ appears here not as the foundation, but as the architect who “builds.” The Church is built, not on confessions, but on confessors - living men (see, e.g., 1 Pet 2:5). Today, the overwhelming consensus of the great majority of all biblical scholars and commentators is in favor of the traditional Catholic understanding. Here St. Peter is spoken of as the foundation-stone of the Church, making him head and superior of the family of God (i.e., the seed of the doctrine of the papacy). Moreover, Rock embodies a metaphor applied to him by Christ in a sense analogous to the suffering and despised Messiah (1 Pet 2:4-8; cf. Mt 21:42). Without a solid foundation a house falls. St. Peter is the foundation, but not founder of the Church, administrator, but not Lord of the Church. The Good Shepherd (John 10:11) gives us other shepherds as well (Eph 4:11).
  1. Matthew 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . .”
The “power of the keys” has to do with ecclesiastical discipline and administrative authority with regard to the requirements of the faith, as in Isaiah 22:22 (cf. Is 9:6; Job 12:14; Rev 3:7). From this power flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution, baptismal discipline, the imposition of penances, and legislative powers. In the Old Testament a steward, or prime minister is a man who is “over a house” (Gen 41:40; 43:19; 44:4; 1 Ki 4:6; 16:9; 18:3; 2 Ki 10:5; 15:5; 18:18; Is 22:15,20-21).
  1. Matthew 16:19 “. . . whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
“Binding” and “loosing” were technical rabbinical terms, which meant to “forbid” and “permit” with reference to the interpretation of the law, and secondarily to “condemn” or “place under the ban” or “acquit.” Thus, St. Peter and the popes are given the authority to determine the rules for doctrine and life, by virtue of revelation and the Spirit’s leading (Jn 16:13), and to demand obedience from the
Church. “Binding and loosing” represent the legislative and judicial powers of the papacy and the bishops (Mt 18:17-18; Jn 20:23). St. Peter, however, is the only apostle who receives these powers by name and in the singular, making him preeminent.
  1. Peter’s name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Mt 10:2; Mk 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the “first” (10:2). Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.
  2. Peter is almost without exception named first whenever he appears with anyone else. In one (only?) example to the contrary, Galatians 2:9, where he (“Cephas”) is listed after James and before John, he is clearly preeminent in the entire context (e.g., 1:18-19; 2:7-8).
  3. Peter alone among the apostles receives a new name, Rock, solemnly conferred (Jn 1:42; Mt 16:18).
  4. Likewise, Peter is regarded by Jesus as the Chief Shepherd after Himself (Jn 21:15-17), singularly by name, and over the universal Church, even though others have a similar but subordinate role (Acts 20:28; 1 Pet 5:2).
  5. Peter alone among the apostles is mentioned by name as having been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his “faith may not fail” (Lk 22:32).
  6. Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to “strengthen your brethren” (Lk 22:32).
  7. Peter first confesses Christ’s divinity (Mt 16:16).
  8. Peter alone is told that he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation (Mt 16:17).
  9. Peter is regarded by the Jews (Acts 4:1-13) as the leader and spokesman of Christianity.
  10. Peter is regarded by the common people in the same way (Acts 2:37-41; 5:15).
  11. Jesus Christ uniquely associates Himself and Peter in the miracle of the tribute-money (Mt 17:24-27).
  12. Christ teaches from Peter’s boat, and the miraculous catch of fish follows (Lk 5:1-11): perhaps a metaphor for the pope as a “fisher of men” (cf. Mt 4:19).
 
  1. Peter was the first apostle to set out for, and enter the empty tomb (Lk 24:12; Jn 20:6).
  2. Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mk 16:7).
  3. Peter leads the apostles in fishing (Jn 21:2-3,11). The “bark” (boat) of Peter has been regarded by Catholics as a figure of the Church, with Peter at the helm.
  4. Peter alone casts himself into the sea to come to Jesus (Jn 21:7).
  5. Peter’s words are the first recorded and most important in the upper room before Pentecost (Acts 1:15-22).
  6. Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas (Acts 1:22).
  7. Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, so he was the first Christian to “preach the gospel” in the Church era (Acts 2:14-36).
  8. Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12).
  9. Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) emphatically affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11)!
  10. Peter’s shadow works miracles (Acts 5:15).
  11. Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40).
  12. Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6).
  13. Peter is the first to receive the Gentiles, after a revelation from God (Acts 10:9-48).
  14. Peter instructs the other apostles on the catholicity (universality) of the Church (Acts 11:5-17).
  15. Peter is the object of the first divine interposition on behalf of an individual in the Church Age (an angel delivers him from prison - Acts 12:1-17).
  16. The whole Church (strongly implied) offers “earnest prayer” for Peter when he is imprisoned (Acts 12:5).
  17. Peter presides over and opens the first Council of Christianity, and lays down principles afterwards accepted by it (Acts 15:7-11).
  18. Paul distinguishes the Lord’s post-Resurrection appearances to Peter from those to other apostles (1 Cor 15:4-8). The two disciples on the road to Emmaus make the same distinction (Lk 24:34), in this instance mentioning only Peter (“Simon”), even though they themselves had just seen the risen Jesus within the previous hour (Lk 24:33).
  19. Peter is often spoken of as distinct among apostles (Mk 1:36; Lk 9:28,32; Acts 2:37; 5:29; 1 Cor 9:5).
  20. Peter is often spokesman for the other apostles, especially at climactic moments (Mk 8:29; Mt 18:21; Lk 9:5; 12:41; Jn 6:67 ff.).
  21. Peter’s name is always the first listed of the “inner circle” of the disciples (Peter, James and John - Mt 17:1; 26:37,40; Mk 5:37; 14:37).
  22. Peter is often the central figure relating to Jesus in dramatic gospel scenes such as walking on the water (Mt 14:28-32; Lk 5:1 ff., Mk 10:28; Mt 17:24 ff.).
  23. Peter is the first to recognize and refute heresy, in Simon Magus (Acts 8:14-24).
  24. Peter’s name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together: 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon, and 6 as Cephas). John is next in frequency with only 48 appearances, and Peter is present 50% of the time we find John in the Bible! Archbishop Fulton Sheen reckoned that all the other disciples combined were mentioned 130 times. If this is correct, Peter is named a remarkable 60% of the time any disciple is referred to!
  25. Peter’s proclamation at Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41) contains a fully authoritative interpretation of Scripture, a doctrinal decision and a disciplinary decree concerning members of the “House of Israel” (2:36) - an example of “binding and loosing.”
  26. Peter was the first “charismatic”, having judged authoritatively the first instance of the gift of tongues as genuine (Acts 2:14-21).
  27. Peter is the first to preach Christian repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38).
  28. Peter (presumably) takes the lead in the first recorded mass baptism (Acts 2:41).
  29. Peter commanded the first Gentile Christians to be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).
  30. Peter was the first traveling missionary, and first exercised what would now be called “visitation of the churches” (Acts 9:32-38,43). Paul preached at Damascus immediately after his conversion (Acts 9:20), but hadn’t traveled there for that purpose (God changed his plans!). His missionary journeys begin in Acts 13:2.
  31. Paul went to Jerusalem specifically to see Peter for fifteen days in the beginning of his ministry (Gal 1:18), and was commissioned by Peter, James and John (Gal 2:9) to preach to the Gentiles.
  32. Peter acts, by strong implication, as the chief bishop/shepherd of the Church (1 Pet 5:1), since he exhorts all the other bishops, or “elders.”
  33. Peter interprets prophecy (2 Pet 1:16-21).
  34. Peter corrects those who misuse Paul’s writings (2 Pet 3:15-16).
 
  1. Peter wrote his first epistle from Rome, according to most scholars, as its bishop, and as the universal bishop (or, pope) of the early Church. “Babylon” (1 Pet 5:13) is regarded as code for Rome.
In conclusion, it strains credulity to think that God would present St. Peter with such prominence in the Bible, without some meaning and import for later Christian history; in particular, Church government. The papacy is the most plausible (we believe actual) fulfillment of this.

END
 
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allischalmers:
I know everyone is going to jump on this one but here go’s. According to Jewish custom at the Passover meal (and in this case the Last Supper in the upper room), the person of most importence sat at the right hand of and next to the host preceeding around the table to the right by each person of lesser importence with the person of least importence on the left of the host. John 13:23 tells us that John wes the one sitting a Jesus (who was the Host) right side.
So if Peter was all that importent would not he be the one sitting next to Jesus on his right

forever Baptist
allischalmers
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Could you post the group photograph of the Last Supper so we could see the order?
 
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Della:
My first inclination is to laugh hysterically, but I’ll take you seriously just to show that this isn’t what the Bible says but what you (or someone else) have invented. The passage to which you refer is John 13:23-25:
One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was lying close to the breast of Jesus; so Simon Peter beckoned to him and said, “Tell us who it is of whom he speaks.” So lying thus, close to the breast of Jesus, he said to him, “Lord, who is it?”
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
There is no mention of who was sitting on Jesus’ left or right. And no reference to anyone’s position in any of the other Gospel accounts. So, bang! goes your theory. :rolleyes:Spot on Della!

So much for the “forever Baptist” who believes “only what the Bible says.”

Peter was often shy about asking his questions probably the moreso once having been told that he would deny his Lord. It makes sense to me that he would ask John who was beloved of the Lord to pose this question. Furthermore, he may have been afraid that the answer was himself because of the prophecy of his denial.

You’ve got this one all twisted up Allis. Please be sure to teach that to all your friends and Sunday School students! They’ll be lined up at the altar to enter the Catholic Church at Easter within the next 2 years! 😃
 
Read Luke 22

24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

31"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

33But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”

34Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

35Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.

36He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’**; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“That is enough,” he replied.

http://www.shef.ac.uk/is/wilson/icimss/Slovakia01/headache.jpg

shef.ac.uk/is/wilson/icimss/Slovakia01/headache.jpg

**
Bottom Line: Jesus did not sit at the HEAD of the Table, Jesus sat in the servers position at the Table.
 
JaneFrances, you said this was from Mr. Armstrong. I would like to use this in a coversation I am having with a protestant. Could you give me a sort of Works cited kind of thing? Please and Thank you.
 
I like the explanation that Saint Peter asked Saint John to ask because He feared that Jesus was referring to Him (in regards to the denial prophecy)
Never thought of that before
Rock on 😉

Mordocai
 
Br. Rich SFO:
Could you post the group photograph of the Last Supper so we could see the order?
Click to expand...
Maybe you could borrow Dan Brown’s wallet sized snapshot?
 
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JaneFrances:
Hmmm, let’s see here. You will accept “Jewish custom” to prove that Peter wasn’t the Pope, but you won’t accept 2000 years of Christian Tradition that says that he was?

This is me throwing my hands up in the air!

Forever Christ’s.
Jane Frances
Click to expand...
LOL :rotfl: - You beat me to the punch. I was going to ask Allis to provide the bible chapter and verse that describes the jewish tradition upon which she is relying.
 
The Pope had just finished a tour of the East Coast and was
taking a limousine to the airport.

Having never driven a limo, he asked the chauffeur if he
could drive for awhile. Well, the chauffeur didn’t
have much of a choice, so the chauffeur climbs in the back
of the limo and the Pope takes the wheel.

The Pope proceeds to hop on 95 and starts accelerating to see what
the limo could do. Well he gets to about 90 mph and, WHAM !, there are
the blue lights of our friendly State Patrol in his mirror.

He pulls over and the trooper comes to his window. Well the
trooper, seeing who it was, says “just a moment please I need
to call in.”

The trooper radio’s in and asks for the chief. He tells the chief
“I’ve got a REALLY important person pulled over and I need
to know what to do.”

The chief replys “Who is it, not Ted again ?” The trooper says, "
No, even more important." The chief replys, “It’s the Governor, is it ?”,
the trooper replys “No, even more important.” “It’s isn’t
the President is it ?” “No, more important”, replys the trooper.

“Well WHO the HECK is it !”, screams the chief.

"I don’t know " says the trooper. “But he’s got the Pope as a chauffeur.”
 
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