Biblical Non-Catholic positon on confession question

  • Thread starter Thread starter Learningconvert
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Learningconvert

Guest
Okay, I’m looking for some help in an on-going debate that I”m having with an Anti-Catholic relative. I’m looking for scripture that supports the Non-Catholic position on confessing sins. I’m aware that the catechism states that we can pray straight to God under certain conditions and with a perfect act of contrition. However, my protestant relatives state that “you don’t need the Church for forgiveness of sins”. I’m aware of many Catholic scriptures that support the Sacrament of Confession. But when I asked for biblical evidence which supports going straight to God to confess the response I got was “l’ll get back with you”.

I’ve been doing some scripture searching of my own. The only passage that I find that is close to supporting the Non-Catholic position is Mark 11:25

Mark 11:25
“Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgression”

But I’m not sure this passage explicitly states or implies that we can confess straight to God. This passage seems to be saying that we need to forgive others in order to receive forgiveness from God. This is echoed in other spots in the bible.

Can anyone explain the biblical arguments that Non-Catholics make to support their claim of going straight to God to confess their sins? Would the Lord’s Prayer be their proof text for their position? I want to be prepared for the responses that I may get. Is their position biblical or is this a tradition of men that they have accepted?

Thanks in advance!
 
Okay, I’m looking for some help in an on-going debate that I”m having with an Anti-Catholic relative. I’m looking for scripture that supports the Non-Catholic position on confessing sins. I’m aware that the catechism states that we can pray straight to God under certain conditions and with a perfect act of contrition. However, my protestant relatives state that “you don’t need the Church for forgiveness of sins”. I’m aware of many Catholic scriptures that support the Sacrament of Confession. But when I asked for biblical evidence which supports going straight to God to confess the response I got was “l’ll get back with you”.

I’ve been doing some scripture searching of my own. The only passage that I find that is close to supporting the Non-Catholic position is Mark 11:25

Mark 11:25
“Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgression”

But I’m not sure this passage explicitly states or implies that we can confess straight to God. This passage seems to be saying that we need to forgive others in order to receive forgiveness from God. This is echoed in other spots in the bible.

Can anyone explain the biblical arguments that Non-Catholics make to support their claim of going straight to God to confess their sins? Would the Lord’s Prayer be their proof text for their position? I want to be prepared for the responses that I may get. Is their position biblical or is this a tradition of men that they have accepted?

Thanks in advance!
How about Ps 32:1-5. I think it was Clement who said when writing about this passage that is what God wants. He wants His people to confess their sins to Him.

God bless.
 
Okay, I’m looking for some help in an on-going debate that I”m having with an Anti-Catholic relative. I’m looking for scripture that supports the Non-Catholic position on confessing sins. I’m aware that the catechism states that we can pray straight to God under certain conditions and with a perfect act of contrition. However, my protestant relatives state that “you don’t need the Church for forgiveness of sins”. I’m aware of many Catholic scriptures that support the Sacrament of Confession. But when I asked for biblical evidence which supports going straight to God to confess the response I got was “l’ll get back with you”.

I’ve been doing some scripture searching of my own. The only passage that I find that is close to supporting the Non-Catholic position is Mark 11:25

Mark 11:25
“Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgression”

But I’m not sure this passage explicitly states or implies that we can confess straight to God. This passage seems to be saying that we need to forgive others in order to receive forgiveness from God. This is echoed in other spots in the bible.

Can anyone explain the biblical arguments that Non-Catholics make to support their claim of going straight to God to confess their sins? Would the Lord’s Prayer be their proof text for their position? I want to be prepared for the responses that I may get. Is their position biblical or is this a tradition of men that they have accepted?

Thanks in advance!
Do keep in mind that going to confession is going to God with our sins. We’re not so much going to the priest as a man as we are going to him as an alter Christus - a stand in for Christ, who has been sent by Jesus just as the Father sent Jesus (John 20:21).

Also, the Church encourages us to examine our consciences daily and confess our sins directly to God in addition to receiving absolution for our sins (primarily mortal sins) through the Sacrament of Penance.
 
Okay,
I’m looking for some help in an on-going debate that I”m having with an Anti-Catholic relative. I’m looking for scripture that supports the Non-Catholic position on confessing sins.
But when I asked for biblical evidence which supports going straight to God to confess the response I got was “l’ll get back with you”.
 
I think he is going to bring the passage in ps ‘have mercy on me o lord in your mercy’ to prove asking God for forgiveness. Asking God for mercy is in line with CC teaching, the priest is Gods representative and a representative of d people frm whom u ask forgiveness.
Peace
 
Whatever argument your relatitive might put up the bible is CLEAR.

Jn 20:23 (to the apostles Jesus says) Those whose sins you forgive are forgiven, those whose sins you retain they are retained.

One cannot forgive sins that are unknown and so confession is necessary. One ought to confess your sinfulness to God and implore His mercy, as the Psalmist does. However the Jewish people also made sin offerings at the temple (so even for the Psalmist, this was not the only step in seeking God’s mercy. Jesus abolished the temple sacrifice (with his own death on the cross), likewise he instituted a new priesthood, through the Apostles.

The Apostles have directed us (through the church) that all serious sin must be confessed to a priest otherwise they are retained.
 
Mark 11:25
“Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgression”
This was said to the Jews, who would stand in front of the presence of God in the second Temple in Jerusalem. The same position of praying, today, is seen often in the Maronite rite as they stand before the tabernacle with hands outstretched (orans position).

The advice of Mark is also augmented by another one in Matthew:

Matth 5:23 If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath anything against thee;
Matth 5:24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother, and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift.

These are two faces of the same issue; grudges damage man; and since God is in man, he is upset by divisions and has these things done to him.

The typical prayer directly to God argument pre-supposes that these passages in Mark and Matthew “stand” before an invisible God, and that there is no more temple.

I believe there is a psalm which I sometimes hear cited which says, “Against you alone O’ God have I sinned.”

There is an “invisible” church confusion with many so that the saying of Jesus about being “within” people can also be used to rationalize just making ammends to an invisible Jesus who doesn’t receive actual sacrifices other than “praise” anyhow.
They don’t see that their sins are still condemned in a temporal, physical way.

In contrast, The Catholic faith is a Sacramental one; we recognize that God is in union with the “least” in the kingdom often meaning even those whom would normally be assumed non-christian. God became man – means that to be forgiven by God also requires forgiveness by man. Otherwise, God within the other never receives forgiveness in THEM.

When we damage Christs body here on earth; the sin can be forgiven – but the damage is still here, in the present body of Christ on the earth. IT is also, therefore within the person’s body who sinned – for everyone on earth shares in the communion which was damaged. We sin against God, therefore we sin against everyone including ourselves who are in union with God.

Although Praying to the invisible God can obtain a mercy or forgiveness, is does not change that the one sinning has been infected and is weakened – and that their weakness is a burden on their human community who also forgives them implicitly, but with real consequences to the health of the community.

A closed communion really reflects this aspect of healing more than whether or not a sinner is forgiven who goes to communion without confession after mortal sin. They who are that sick also sicken the body that bears their sin; and that is not just Jesus Christ in his glorified body in heaven, but us down here too.

Fr. Jim Stenge in Scappoose, once commented in a homily that a person could have perfect contrition, therefore BE forgiven of the Mortal sin – and then disobey the church and go to communion before confession; Going to communion like that is just disobeying the church in a disciplinary matter, and therefore venial sin.

Techinically, he is probably right – and yet he himself is quite ill in the body, and he never mentioned whether or not he understood that the mortal sin does not BECOME venial because it is forgiven, but that both the venial AND the mortal sin consequences are are added together into the union of communion.

God is with us – Emmanuel – means quite literally that he is HERE bearing what we do; and we can either let him bear it alone – or we can share his burden. That is why the priest on earth is a representative who helps people decide HOW to carry the burden of the forgiveness of sins; No mere man can carry it all alone; and when Chirst took on the sins of the world for all times – he took them on in Eucharistic form and in incarnational form in the very bodies we have that are baptized on this earth in the still journeying form toward the final resurrection that has no more burden of sin.

I often hear priests substituting for Fr. Stenge saying “what a good priest you have” and so forth. Let me agree; but I worry for him on the same count. The greatest love seems to be to take all the sins of one’s neighbor on oneself; and perhaps he thinks that he is able to do this indefinitely – so that he teaches in his homily a didactic that is really a bit ignorant; (Not sinful); For it seems to leave the congregation ignorant – and he takes our place.

I do believe, that he may be very loving – but also self destructive. When one takes disease on their body, it shortens how long one will live. When he gives a mortal sinner communion, power still flows out of the priest. This is a great mystery, eg: that the Devil can even use pity and love of a priest to make them give more at the wrong time and less at the right.

I wonder why, the priests do not talk more about their Homilitic between each other than they do – it seems they are almost in competition with each other. The more of us who BEAR this sin together with Christ, the lighter the burden becomes. That is the meaning of the communion of saints. But merely cheering him on as a “good” priest may also be playing into the hands of a shorter life when the servants are few.

Most people I talk to about their conception of “direct confession” have no idea of an incarnational or fleshly dimension of accepting Jesus Christ as one’s Lord and savior. They don’t recognize the value and meaning that Jesus left us with a Eucharistic communion; to them God is still invisible and only invisible until he comes again. Glory Glory Glory is their chant, and yet they can’t see him.
 
Is James 5:16 not in their Bible?

The context of James 5:16 is assuming that being in sin is a lot like being sick. If somebody is sick, he goes to the Church elders/presbyters/priests for prayers and the sacrament of anointing. If somebody has sinned, he goes to the Church elders/presbyters/priests for Confession and absolution of his sins. In either case, his sins are forgiven; so the Sacraments are similar.

"Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.

“Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved.”
 
One cannot forgive sins that are unknown and so confession is necessary. One ought to confess your sinfulness to God and implore His mercy, as the Psalmist does. However the Jewish people also made sin offerings at the temple (so even for the Psalmist, this was not the only step in seeking God’s mercy.
The reason the Jews made sin offerings is they were required to do so under the law.

The church, however, is not under law, but under grace.

I can think of only one imperative to confess sins to another, and that’s by James to “one another,” and not to a “priest, or priests.”
 
The reason the Jews made sin offerings is they were required to do so under the law.

The church, however, is not under law, but under grace.

I can think of only one imperative to confess sins to another, and that’s by James to “one another,” and not to a “priest, or priests.”
🙂

So, you’re NOT a priest – although Paul says you and I both are?
You are a priestly people…

Who else are you going to confess to?🤷
It’s just that one priest is ranked above another in wisdom and power.
 
The reason the Jews made sin offerings is they were required to do so under the law.

The church, however, is not under law, but under grace.

I can think of only one imperative to confess sins to another, and that’s by James to “one another,” and not to a “priest, or priests.”
Jesus specifically give the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles. Full Stop, Period.

The sin offering thing as nothing to do with that, it was simply demonstrating that the psalmist could not be taken to suggest that all you had to do was confess to God.

The Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession) is all about Grace. But god left the authority to administers such sacraments (Grace) to the authority of the Apostles. This passage cannot be taken to mean anything else. Do you not believe in the authority of the bible? Here scripture is clear!
 
I can think of only one imperative to confess sins to another, and that’s by James to “one another,” and not to a “priest, or priests.”
And we can easily deduce that because James wrote that, people felt motivated to confess their sins to him. And, being an Apostle, once they confessed their sins to him, we can further more deduce that (due to John 20:23) he told them their sins were either forgiven or retained. This scenario has the basic elements of sacramental confession in conjunction with Apostolic ministry.

Moreover, being a Protestant you are considering Scripture alone to being the “only imperative to confess sins to another”. But from the 2000 year old perspective of the Catholic Church, all the various Eastern Orthodox Churches and all the various Oriental Orthodox Churches, Sacred Tradition teaches that the priesthood is empowered by God to be a channel of his reconciling grace through sacramental confession.
 
I want to thank everyone who has participated in this tread to this point! From what I’ve read here I think my theory is pretty good. It seems that the non-Catholic argument for confession without a priest using scripture is pretty weak. I’m going to continue to dig on this subject. I enjoy reading your debates. I still have a lot to learn about the bible so this discussion has helped.
 
Here is another post.

biblechristiansociety.com/apologetics/two_minute#11

Why confess to a priest?

Well, the quick answer is because that’s the way God wants us to do it. In James 5:16, God, through Sacred Scripture, commands us to “confess our sins to one another.” Notice, Scripture does not say confess your sins straight to God and only to God…it says confess your sins to one another.

In Matthew, 9:6, Jesus tells us that He was given authority on earth to forgive sins. And then Scripture proceeds to tell us, in verse 8, that this authority was given to “men”…plural.

In John 20:21-23, what is the 1st thing Jesus says to the gathered disciples on the night of His resurrection? “Jesus said to them, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’” How did the Father send Jesus? Well, we just saw in Mt 9 that the Father sent Jesus with the authority on earth to forgive sins. Now, Jesus sends out His disciples as the Father has sent Him…so, what authority must Jesus be sending His disciples out with? The authority on earth to forgive sins. And, just in case they didn’t get it, verses 22-23 say this, “And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’”

Why would Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive or to retain sins if He wasn’t expecting folks to confess their sins to them? And how could they forgive or retain sins if no one was confessing their sins to them?

The Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another. It also tells us that God gave men the authority on Earth to forgive sins. Jesus sends out His disciples with the authority on earth to forgive sins. When Catholics confess our sins to a priest, we are simply following the plan laid down by Jesus Christ. He forgives sins through the priest…it is God’s power, but He exercises that power through the ministry of the priest.
 
Oh for heaven’s sake. :rolleyes:

Where does Paul say that?

God. :yup:
Bonus: KJV

Exodu 19:6 And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom,
Revel 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Revel 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
1Pete 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Since Paul is more difficult, I’ll use two passages from him to the same effect.

Hebre 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2Cori 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you** by us**: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Ambassadors intercede between nations and peoples; even royal and priestly ones. Again, it’s a matter of rank. There is only One high priest; the rest of us get to confess to one another…
😛

I’ll pray for you; as a common priest, God may hear my prayer on your behalf.
Do you also pray for me, and those you love?
 
Jesus specifically give the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles. Full Stop, Period.
Not in the confessional. Full stop. Exclamation point!
The sin offering thing as nothing to do with that, it was simply demonstrating that the psalmist could not be taken to suggest that all you had to do was confess to God.
Says who? You?

The psalmist is very clear concerning to whom it was he confessed his sin, and that was God. You better go back and read it again.
The Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession) is all about Grace. But god left the authority to administers such sacraments (Grace) to the authority of the Apostles.
The apostles are dead.
This passage cannot be taken to mean anything else. Do you not believe in the authority of the bible?
To suggest that taking a different meaning from the passage than the one you’ve taken is not believing in the authority of the bible is a logical fallacy.

I hope you don’t think fallaciously all the time. I’ll keep my eye on you and see though.
Here scripture is clear!
Why wouldn’t it be clear if it were over there ? 🙂
 
And we can easily deduce that because James wrote that, people felt motivated to confess their sins to him.
We can? We can? WE can??? More fallacious assertions.
And, being an Apostle, once they confessed their sins to him, we can further more deduce that (due to John 20:23) he told them their sins were either forgiven or retained. This scenario has the basic elements of sacramental confession in conjunction with Apostolic ministry.
Circular reasoning. Assumes the conclusion in the premise. Of course you don’t realize you’re doing, and you’ll deny it, but hey, you are doing it.
Moreover, being a Protestant you are considering Scripture alone to being the “only imperative to confess sins to another”. But from the 2000 year old perspective of the Catholic Church, all the various Eastern Orthodox Churches and all the various Oriental Orthodox Churches, Sacred Tradition teaches that the priesthood is empowered by God to be a channel of his reconciling grace through sacramental confession.
Appeal to Tradition fallacy**: “We’ve used appeal to tradition for centuries, how could it possibly be wrong?”**

Oh boy. This kind of thinking is…probably not going to be worth the effort.

Well I’ll see how you respond, and then I’ll make a final decision.
 
Bonus: KJV

Exodu 19:6 And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom,
Revel 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Revel 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
1Pete 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Since Paul is more difficult, I’ll use two passages from him to the same effect.

Hebre 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2Cori 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you** by us**: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Ambassadors intercede between nations and peoples; even royal and priestly ones. Again, it’s a matter of rank. There is only One high priest; the rest of us get to confess to one another…
😛

I’ll pray for you; as a common priest, God may hear my prayer on your behalf.
Do you also pray for me, and those you love?
Paul didn’t say what you said he said, isn’t that right? And you figured that out when I pressed you to tell me where Paul said that, isn’t that right? Remember, not telling the truth is a sin.

I’m sure I’m fine, but I’m not so sure about you. Tell you what, instead of you praying for me, you pray for you, and I will too. Mkay? 🙂
 
I want to thank everyone who has participated in this tread to this point! From what I’ve read here I think my theory is pretty good. It seems that the non-Catholic argument for confession without a priest using scripture is pretty weak. I’m going to continue to dig on this subject. I enjoy reading your debates. I still have a lot to learn about the bible so this discussion has helped.
You’re welcome.

I guess the thread is over. :tiphat:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top