Biblical Proof Text of the Trinity: All Christian Apologists welcome to join.

[zerinus]

To the contrary, I don’t ignore any of these translations… I just don’t make a HUGE theological conclusion on a verse that obviously can be translated 2 different ways.

I don’t view this a “majority rules”. There are a bunch of smart people who think it should be “me” and there are a bunch of other smart people who think it should be “him”.

Given various explanations available on both sides, I am left to conclude theological conclusions based on this highly debatable verse would be inappropriate.

I put Zech 12:10 into a category of not being able to decide the question.

I then look for other scriptures that describe the relationship between YHWH and Jesus that are not subject to translation debates.

For example:

(Psalm 110:1-5) **The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” 2The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.” 3Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force. In the splendors of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, You have your company of young men just like dewdrops. 4Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret): “You are a priest to time indefinite According to the manner of Mel·chiz′e·dek!” 5 Jehovah himself at your right hand **Will certainly break kings to pieces on the day of his anger.

If you want to believe that Jesus is YHWH, then you’d have YHWH (on the left) talking to YHWH (on the right) telling himself he’s going to be a priest to the manner of Melchizedek.

Do you have any translations that don’t present this simple picture of YHWH talking to Jesus who’s sitting at the right hand of YHWH?

These have already been addressed. No need to go over the same ground again. I have also just added a Post Script to my previous post. You may have missed. Please read it again. Your quotations cannot be trusted. I need the verses quoted in full before I can be sure of and express an opinion on them.

zerinus

 

[BibleSteve]

I have just looked this verse up in the New Jerusalem Bible, which is a revised and improved version of the older Jerusalem Bible. And it appears that you have misquoted this verse out of context. …

My guess is that most of the other passages that you have given are equally quoted out of context, and therefore cannot be trusted. If you can give us the complete verses, then we can see if they have been correctly quoted or not. Until then I cannot trust them.

Once again, you are showing your tendency to jump to unfounded conclusions. Now you’re suggesting I misquoted something. My quotes are 100% correct, but you’ve jumped to another conclusion because you want so much to have “me” there in the text.

My quotes were from the Jerusalem Bible, not the New Jerusalem Bible. Pick up a copy for yourself and see for yourself the quote I provided is 100% correct. Like other Bibles, and quotes I’ve provided, the marginal reference notes the variation “me”. I don’t have a copy of the New Jerusalem Bible, but let me ask. Does it have marginal references and does it point to “him”?

It is a fact that “him” vs. “me” is in dispute amongst experts. Which seems to be a ridiculous type of Scripture to define one’s doctrinal belief on.

But, go ahead…

 

[zerinus]

Once again, you are showing your tendency to jump to unfounded conclusions. Now you’re suggesting I misquoted something. My quotes are 100% correct, but you’ve jumped to another conclusion because you want so much to have “me” there in the text.

My quotes were from the Jerusalem Bible, not the New Jerusalem Bible. Pick up a copy for yourself and see for yourself the quote I provided is 100% correct. Like other Bibles, and quotes I’ve provided, the marginal reference notes the variation “me”.

Your quotations may be correct, but out of context, which makes them incorrect.

I don’t have a copy of the New Jerusalem Bible, but let me ask. Does it have marginal references and does it point to “him”?

My version does not have marginal notes; and I don’t think that that would make any difference either.

It is a fact that “him” vs. “me” is in dispute amongst experts. Which seems to be a ridiculous type of Scripture to define one’s doctrinal belief on.

I am not aware of such a “fact”.

zerinus

 

[BibleSteve]

Your quotations cannot be trusted. I need the verses quoted in full before I can be sure of and express an opinion on them.

Listen Zerinus, when I quote something out of the “Jerusalem Bible”, that means the “Jerusalem Bible”, not the “New Jerusalem Bible”.

Those are two different things… Don’t start saying my quotes can’t be trusted when you’ve looked up the verse in a different translation that I didn’t quote. Saying I can’t be trusted is an insult to me and you made this statement based on looking somewhere I didn’t quote.

If you haven’t gotten the point that there is significant variation on this Scripture, I doubt you’ll ever get it. Go ahead and base your doctrinal belief on a word that’s in dispute. And, ignore obvious Scriptures like Psa 2:1-10

 

[BibleSteve]

I have pointed out the fact there is disagreement on the use of “me” or “him” amongst translators

You say: “What fact?”

If there was no disagreement, every translation would say “me”, but they don’t. Some say “me” others say “him”, various translations point out the variation in their marginal references.

Googling the following phrases:

“look upon me whom they have pierced” Zechariah
“look upon him whom they have pierced” Zechariah

produces hundreds of occurances of each.

That’s called “variation” of scripture…

The word “me” is in dispute.

That’s a fact.

To argue against this fact shows bias.

 

[zerinus]

Listen Zerinus, when I quote something out of the “Jerusalem Bible”, that means the “Jerusalem Bible”, not the “New Jerusalem Bible”.

Those are two different things… Don’t start saying my quotes can’t be trusted when you’ve looked up the verse in a different translation that I didn’t quote. Saying I can’t be trusted is an insult to me and you made this statement based on looking somewhere I didn’t quote.

If you haven’t gotten the point that there is significant variation on this Scripture, I doubt you’ll ever get it. Go ahead and base your doctrinal belief on a word that’s in dispute. And, ignore obvious Scriptures like Psa 2:1-10

I don’t believe there is a difference in this particular verse between the two different versions of the Bible. The quote you had given was: “They will look at the one whom they have pierced”.- The Jerusalem Bible. This is the same as the quote in the New Jerusalem Bible. But it is only part of the verse. It is not the complete verse. It is quoted out of context, and that is what makes it incorrect and misleading. I am not blaming you for this. I don’t think that you looked all these verses all up yourself. I think that you obtained them from your Watchtower organization. You trusted them to supply you with accurate and correct information, and they have given you misleading information instead. That is not unheard of from the Watchtower. They do have a tendency to mislead people. Sorry to say, but it is true.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

I have pointed out the fact there is disagreement on the use of “me” or “him” amongst translators. . . .

I don’t accept that there is such a disagreement, or that it is significant, for the reasons already described. Those are a tiny minority; and they are interpretations rather than translations. I repeat, the quotes you have given cannot be trusted.

Googling the following phrases:

“look upon me whom they have pierced” Zechariah
“look upon him whom they have pierced” Zechariah . . .

The scholarly significance of that is near zero. That is no way to do scholarly research. That data can be interpreted in many different ways.

zerinus

 

[BibleSteve]

I don’t believe there is a difference in this particular verse between the two different versions of the Bible. The quote you had given was: “They will look at the one whom they have pierced”.- The Jerusalem Bible. This is the same as the quote in the New Jerusalem Bible. But it is only part of the verse. It is not the complete verse. It is quoted out of context, and that is what makes it incorrect and misleading. I am not blaming you for this. I don’t think that you looked all these verses all up yourself. I think that you obtained them from your Watchtower organization. You trusted them to supply you with accurate and correct information, and they have given you misleading information instead. That is not unheard of from the Watchtower. They do have a tendency to mislead people. Sorry to say, but it is true.

zerinus

Zerinus,

You have embarrassed yourself and insulted me. I directly quoted out of the Jerusalem Bible and you’ve charged me with misquoting, or quoting out of context… And yet, you haven’t even taken the time to check the Jerusalem Bible yourself.

“I don’t believe there is a difference in this particular verse between the two different versions of the Bible.”

Let me ask you… Did you check before guessing at this conclusion and insulting me? No, because if you had, you’d realize you had made a wrong assumption and a wrong conclusion.

What kind of guy makes conclusions like this without checking his facts?

This is very dissappointing…

Now, let me pull out my own copy of the Jerusalem Bible (which you incorrectly said I didn’t have), and type you out the exact quote (which you haven’t taken the time to look up yourself before insulting me with this misquote/out of context baloney)…

Here you go:

Zec 12:9-11

When that day comes, I shall set myself to destroy all nations who advance against Jerusalem. But over the House of David and the citizens of Jerusalem I will pour out a spirit of kindness and prayer. **They will look on the one whom they have pierced; they will mourn for him as for an only son, and weep for him as people weep for a first-born child. **When that day comes, there will be great mourning in Judah, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

Hmmm…

Where’s the misquote? Where’s the quote out of context?

Go do your homework…

 

[BibleSteve]

**New American Bible – A Catholic Bible **(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Bible)
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and petition; and they shall look on him whom they have thrust through, and they shall mourn for **him **as one mourns for an only son, and they shall grieve over **him **as one grieves over a first-born.

The Jerusalem Bible - Catholic Bible
When that day comes, I shall set myself to destroy all nations who advance against Jerusalem. But over the House of David and the citizens of Jerusalem I will pour out a spirit of kindness and prayer. They will look on the one whom they have pierced; they will mourn for him as for an only son, and weep for **him **as people weep for a first-born child.

**Revised Standard **
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Standard_Version)
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.”

**Today’s English Version **(innvista.com/culture/religion/bible/versions/tev.htm)
10 "I will fill the descendants of David and the other people of Jerusalem with the spirit of mercy and the spirit of prayer. They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death, and they will mourn for **him **like those who mourn for an only child. They will mourn bitterly, like those who have lost their first-born son

Contemporary English Bible
(tinyurl.com/2x3u33)
I, the LORD, will make the descendants of David and the people of Jerusalem feel deep sorrow and pray when they see the one they pierced with a spear. They will mourn and weep for him, as parents weep over the death of their only child or their first-born.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Subtle References to the Trinity of God

Text: Isaiah 48:12-16

I. Often I find people making statements, such “the Holy Spirit is never said to be Deity, Divine in any way.” Or, statements that Jesus is the first of creation and thus is not fully God (or divine).

         A.         The problem is that proof or denial often requires a complete knowledge of the Scriptures.

         B.         It would be nice if we could find a verse that plainly answers every question that we could come up with, but often we must reason from what is presented to us to determine the truth.

         C.         In Isaiah 48:12-16

                      1.          When you start reading you would think you are listening to declaration by God.

                                   a.          He calls Himself “I am.”

                                   b.          He states He has created the earth.

                                   c.          He claims authority over the future and the nations.

                      2.          Yet, when we get to verse 16 we find that the “I” was sent by the Lord God. 

                                   a.          The Lord God has also sent the Spirit.

                                   b.          The “Me” must be Jesus Christ

                                                (1)        Jesus has not spoken in secret - John 18:20

                                                (2)        Jesus was sent by God - John 5:36-38

                                   c.          The Father sent the Spirit - John 14:16-17

                      3.          In other words, Isaiah 12-16 refers to the trinity of God, yet the reference is easily overlooked.

         D.         What I would like to present some subtle ways the Scriptures declare the nature of God

II. Interchange of Persons

         A.         God declares He will not give His glory to another - Isaiah 48:11; Isaiah 42:8-9

                      1.          Yet we are told that Jesus had glory from the Father - John 1:14

                      2.          He had that glory with God before the world began - John 17:5

                      3.          In other words, when God declared through Isaiah that He would not share His glory with anyone else, Jesus and the Father both shared glory.

                      4.          This is only explainable if we acknowledge that the Son and the Father are both the Lord God.

                      5.          Hence Jesus is referred to as the Lord of Glory - I Corinthians 2:8

                      6.          Yet, the Spirit is also called the Spirit of Glory - I Peter 4:14

         B.         God alone made the world - Isaiah 44:24

                      1.          Yet in Genesis 1:2 we see the Spirit of God moving upon the waters

                      2.          The Spirit was involved in creation - Psalm 104:30

                      3.          John tells us that all things came into being by the Word (Jesus) - John 1:1-3

                      4.          Colossians 1:15-17 - All things were created by Jesus and for Jesus

                      5.          Hebrews 1:2 - God created the world through Jesus

         C.         God is Lord of Lords and King of Kings - Deuteronomy 10:17; I Timothy 6:13-16

                      1.          Yet the Spirit is called Lord - II Corinthians 3:18

                      2.          The Lamb is Lord of Lords and King of Kings - Revelation 17:14; 19:16

         D.         Only God knows the hearts of men - I King 8:23, 39

                      1.          Yet Jesus knew the hearts of men - Luke 4:22; John 2:24-25

                      2.          The Spirit searches our hearts to make intercession for us - Romans 8:26-27

                      3.          If God alone knows the hearts of men, then Jesus and the Spirit must be God.

         E.         The Lord of hosts is to be feared and regard him as holy - Isaiah 8:12-13

                      1.          Fear Him who is able to kill body and soul - Matthew 10:28

                      2.          Be holy as God is Holy - I Peter 1:14-16

                      3.          Isaiah 8:12-13 is quoted in I Peter 3:14-15, but it is applied to Jesus

                                   a.          Jesus is to be feared - II Thessalonians 1:6-9

                                   b.          Jesus is the Holy One of God - John 6:69

                      4.          The Spirit is the spirit of fear - Isaiah 11:2

                      5.          There are numerous references to the Holy Spirit

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

F. God alone saves - Isaiah 43:11; 45:21

                      1.          The doctrine of God our Savior - Titus 2:10

                      2.          Yet two verses later, it is Jesus who is our Savior - Titus 2:13; II Peter 1:1

                      3.          The Spirit is the guarantee of our salvation - Ephesians 1:13-14

                      4.          By the Spirit we are sealed for redemption - Ephesians 4:30

         G.         There are many more verses where parallels are made between God and Jesus.

III. Shared attributes

         A.         Fellowship

                      1.          I John 1:3 - Fellowship with the Father and the Son

                      2.          I Corinthians 1:9 - called into fellowship with the Son

                      3.          II Corinthians 13:14 - Fellowship of the Holy Spirit

                      4.          Philippians 2:1 - Fellowship of the Spirit

         B.         Love

                      1.          God loved us - Ephesians 2:4-5

                      2.          Jesus loved us - John 15:9-10

                      3.          The love of the Spirit - Romans 15:30

         C.         Sanctifies

                      1.          God sanctifies - I Thessalonians 5:23

                      2.          Jesus sanctifies - Hebrews 2:11

                      3.          The work of the Spirit sanctifies - I Peter 1:2

         D.         Indwells (has a home in)

                      1.          God dwells in us - II Corinthians 6:16

                      2.          The Spirit dwells in us - I Corinthians 3:16

                      3.          Christ dwells in our hearts through faith - Ephesians 3:17

         E.         Gives life

                      1.          I John 5:11-13 - God has given us eternal life through His Son

                      2.          John 10:10 - Jesus came to give life

                      3.          Galatians 6:8 - The Spirit gives life

         F.         Again, we could continue on with the similarities in with the trinity is described.

IV. Even if there did not exist passages which directly state that God is three beings who are one, there is ample evidence in the Scriptures to prove it by indirect means

         A.         What is said of one is generally said of the others, though there are some characteristics that are unique to each.

         B.         The commonness reenforces the idea that God is one and that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all God.

---

Subtle References to the Trinity of God

Isaiah 48:12-16

Unique attributes of God are shared by the Father, Son, and Spirit:

Father
Son
Spirit

His Glory
Isaiah 48:11; 42:8-9
John 1:14; 17:5; I Corinthians 2:8
I Peter 4:14

Creator
Isaiah 44:24
John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:2
Genesis 1:2; Psalm 104:30

Supreme Ruler
Deuteronomy 10:17; I Timothy 6:13-16
Revelation 17:14; 19:16
II Corinthians 3:18

All Knowing
I Kings 8:23, 39
Luke 4:22; John 2:24-25
Romans 8:26-27

Reverence and Holiness
Isaiah 8:12-13; Matthew 10:28; I Peter 1:14-16
I Peter 3:14-15; II Thessalonians 1:6-9; John 6:69
Isaiah 11:2

Salvation
Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; Titus 2:10
Titus 2:13; II Peter 1:1
Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30

Shared attributes of the Father, Son, and Spirit:

Father
Son
Spirit

Fellowship
I John 1:3
I John 1:3; I Corinthians 1:9
II Corinthians 13:14; Philippians 2:1

Love
Ephesians 2:4-5
John 15:9-10
Romans 15:30

Sanctification
I Thessalonians 5:23
Hebrews 2:11
I Peter 1:2

Indwells, Abides
II Corinthians 6:16
Ephesians 3:17
I Corinthians 3:16

Giver of Life
I John 5:11-13
John 10:10
Galatians 6:8

lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVSermons/SubtleReferencesToTheTrinity.htm

 

[zerinus]

Thank you BibleSteve for your research and the quotes. Let me first make a comment about the Jerusalem/New Jerusalem Bible. It appears that you are right. The Jerusalem Bible (assuming that you quotes are accurate) renders the verse differently from the New Jerusalem Bible. (I only have the NJB in my library.) However, that provides little comfort to you. The Jerusalem Bible has been superseded by the much improved New Jerusalem Bible, which incorporates the “me” back into the verse. Here is an extract from the Wikipedia regarding the two different versions (emphasis and words in square brackets mine):

It is an update to the Jerusalem Bible, an English version of the French Bible de Jérusalem. However, the [English] Jerusalem Bible was not a translation from the French; rather, it is an original translation heavily influenced by the French. When the French version was updated in 1973, the changes were used to revise the Jerusalem Bible, creating the New Jerusalem Bible.

The revisions were substantial. The revised version is said to be less literary but, for the most part, more literal. The introductions and footnotes, translated almost entirely from the French, have also been thoroughly revised and expanded, making it one of the most scholarly editions of the bible.

So your gleeful quoting of the verse from the Jerusalem Bible was a little bit uncalled for. It does not help your case any. It is superseded by the NJB, which supports my claim rather than yours.

Secondly, a few words about the quoted verses that you have just given. In post #252, you had given me twelve quotes from different Bibles as examples of “him” rather than “me”. Since I requested that you give me the verses in full, the number of examples you have given in post #267 has been reduced from twelve to five (one of which is the JB, which is redundant)! So what happened to the rest? You just couldn’t find them, or was I right, and they had been misleadingly quoted out of context? Were you too embarrassed to quote them for me in full?

Suffice it to say that these examples are a tiny minority of cases. You have essentially found me four examples out of possibly hundreds of different translation. And these examples are “interpretations” rather than accurate literal “translations”; therefore they prove nothing. I find that I am repeating myself over and over unnecessarily. Unless you can find me an accurate scholarly explanation as to why those few odd ball translations should be taken seriously, in preference to hundreds of translations that render the verse in my favor, you are building your case on sand. While on the other hand, in post #237 I had given you many great scriptural verses unrelated to this verse that establish the doctrine of Jesus being Jehovah more strongly than this verse does. I don’t know why you insist on ignoring those.

zerinus

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

All due deference but your exegesis doesn’t add up BibleSteve. The entire passage refers to Jesus Christ who is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God and who was “alive” (physically) and “died.”
Rev 1:12-18

"12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13* and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden girdle round his breast;
14 his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; his eyes were like a flame of fire,

The term “Son of Man” is a term Jesus uses for His diety. Furthermore, when Jesus was asked by the high priest whether He was the “Son of God” in Matthew 26:63, Jesus responded with an affirmative, ergo declaring that He was the “Son of Man” who would come in power and great glory in verse 64. This indicates that Jesus used the phrase “Son of Man” to indicate His deity as the Son of God.

In Mt 26:65 the high priest tore his robe, because Jesus was saying He was God. As ancient Hebraism teaches, the Pharisees would tear their robes if someone spoke blasphemy.

15* his feet were like burnished bronze, refined as in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters; 16* in his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth issued a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. 17* When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
18 and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Since to you only Jehovah is the first and last (Alpha and Omega), when did Jehovah, the living one die?

catholicresponse.org/articles/Hiding_The_Divine_Name.pdf
catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/hiding.html



catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/1pe23mg.jpg

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

All due deference but your exegesis doesn’t add up BibleSteve. The entire passage refers to Jesus Christ who is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God and who was “alive” (physically) and “died.”
Rev 1:12-18

"12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13* and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden girdle round his breast;
14 his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; his eyes were like a flame of fire,

The term “Son of Man” is a term Jesus uses for His diety. Furthermore, when Jesus was asked by the high priest whether He was the “Son of God” in Matthew 26:63, Jesus responded with an affirmative, ergo declaring that He was the “Son of Man” who would come in power and great glory in verse 64. This indicates that Jesus used the phrase “Son of Man” to indicate His deity as the Son of God.

In Mt 26:65 the high priest tore his robe, because Jesus was saying He was God. As ancient Hebraism teaches, the Pharisees would tear their robes if someone spoke blasphemy.

15* his feet were like burnished bronze, refined as in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters; 16* in his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth issued a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. 17* When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
18 and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Since to you only Jehovah is the first and last (Alpha and Omega), when did Jehovah, the living one die?

Yes, when did Jehovah die?

 

[BibleSteve]

Zerinus,

I can only do so much homework for you. I’ve made a clear case there is variation in the text. When I pointed out 12 Bibles that show this, you claimed I misquoted without checking yourself.

(And, by the way, go down to the local bookstore and look through the Jewish section. You’ll find Jewish translations that have even more variation to Zech 12:10)

When I spent the time to quote the full text, you complain I didn’t go type out all 12.

Now you want to complain they’re not translations… Go check… they are.

These are well-known translations from serious Bible translators and well-known organizations…

I get the point, you WANT to believe as you do and nothing will sway you.

As a scientist, I look for consistency in data before making a conclusion. When I look at Zec 12:10, I can’t help but notice the critical variation. “him” vs. “me” provide two completely different meanings. You want to hang to “me”…

I’m not even making a case for “him”… I’m simply pointing out the ambiguity found amongst translations.

I’m done with you on this topic.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Not exactly. You are for one using a false and new version of what the watchtower says is the correct interpretation, but they do NOT have any authority; they are not consistant with ancient Christian teaching and they sprang forth in the nineteenth century.
…
Rev 1:17
“Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.”
Jesus is God, the alpha and omega and Jesus died and is now alive.
If this is speaking about Jehovah God then when did He die?
…

 

[BibleSteve]

Yes, when did Jehovah die?

I’ve answered this previously.

Because Trinitarians are confused about Jesus being YHWH, they can’t distinguish who is talking in the book of Revelation.

Sometimes Jesus is talking, other times Jehovah is talking… but in reality, it is an angel who is relating all these conversations (Rev 1:1; 22:16).

Jesus is the one who is talking when he says he died.

Jehovah is the one talking when it says “Alpha and Omega”

The term “first and last” is applied to Jesus in one case because he was the “first and last” person to be resurrected to immortal heavenly life, directly by his father.

The term “first and last” is applied to Jehovah in another case, because he is the “first and last” Almighty God.

This is all confusing to you because as a Trinitarian, you misunderstand the difference between Jesus and YHWH.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Now Steve, if you claim to be led by the holy spirit and I came to be led and taught by the Holy Spirit. Then** how do we determine whoose interpretation is true, if either?**

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

You are clearly exhibiting characteristics of delusion. Do you always demand people send you things free of charge without asking them?

Ah, I did ask you in a PM a long time ago, it appears you may be ignoring your PMs because your box is full last I tried to PM you.

Since, you used a quote, it is on your shouders to prove it is a honest quote, thus the request.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

My authority? I picked up the Bible, read it diligently, studied what all the various religions said about it, and made my own decisions, praying for guidance from God’s holy spirit. …

Now Steve, if you claim to be led by the holy spirit and I came to be led and taught by the Holy Spirit. Then how do we determine whoose interpretation is true, if either?

Thanks for your thoughtful answer.
…
In my opinion, if you took a person who’d never heard anything about the Trinity doctrine and knew nothing about the Bible, and let them study an accurate translation of the Bible (which includes the divine name YHWH) and pray for God’s holy spirit for direction, they would NEVER come to the idea of a Trinity.

,

Romans 8:26-27 (New International Version)

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

John 14:26 (New International Version)

26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Acts 13:2 (New International Version)

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

google.com/search?hl=en&q=Bible+Personhood+Holy+Spirit+intercedes+teaches+guides+

Steve, electricity can not teach, guide or give direction. And, yet you claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit in a personal way. You do see your inconsistecy right?