Biblical Proof Text of the Trinity: All Christian Apologists welcome to join.

[Mannyfit75]

Dear Manny and Daniel,

You’ve both brought up this point:

If a Bible student gets to Revelation and is confused about Jesus being YHWH and not the son of YHWH, I don’t think he’ll have any ability to understand what’s being said.

The confusion comes from not understanding who’s talking.

Rev 1:1 shows that “God” (i.e. YHWH) tells Jesus to convey his message… and then Jesus asks an angel to convey the message…"

So, who’s talking? Everything is actually the angel talking… conveying the words of Jesus, who in turn is conveying the words of his Father YHWH…

Alpha and Omega - This is YHWH speaking
“First and Last”… is a term being used for Jesus in one context and YHWH in another.

First and Last what?

Jesus was the first and last person directly resurrected to immortal heavenly life by his Father YHWH.

YHWH is the first and last Almighty God.

If you can’t understand Jesus direct explanation that his Father is the “only true God”(John 17:3)… and that Jesus views his Father as “my God” (Rev 3:12), and that prior to all this Jesus was sitting at the right hand of YHWH (Psa 110:1-5), and that YHWH sent forth Jesus as a messenger (Heb 1:1) and a servant (Acts 3:12)… but become confused in all this thinking that Jesus is YHWH… you’ll not be able to understand Revelation…

That interpretation is completely erroneous. I under Revelation as the Church interprets it. The passage is also clear that “I was once dead and I’m now alive forever.”

There is also another verse in the Book of the Revelation which states, “Where they Crucified the Lord.”

Again I find your interpretation erroneous and not consistent with historical Christian as show by the Bible and the ECFs.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Steve,

So far you have proven that Jesus isn’t God.

The Bible clearly shows that he is. I will have to quote John again.

John Chapter One verse 1-5.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light. 9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.

16 And of his fulness we all have received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So we see that in the Beginning there was the Word, and the Word was God. All things were make through him and for him, and without him nothing was made. We know this to be God because God created all things. If you read verse 14, it states, the Word became flesh and dwell amongst us.

The Word who is God became flesh. Well, who is this Word? Well, its Jesus Christ. The Son of the Living God. Who is True Man and True God.

Conclusion: Therefore Jesus is God. He is not Michael the Archangel as you claim to be.

 

[Bishopite]

[BibleSteve;2898032]

I am simply using Scripture to argue **my **point. I’m not discussing the pro’s or con’s of any religion. This thread is about “Biblical Proof Texts of the Trinity”

Not exactly. You are for one using a false and new version of what the watchtower says is the correct interpretation, but they do NOT have any authority; they are not consistant with ancient Christian teaching and they sprang forth in the nineteenth century.

The Scriptures do not teach the Trinity doctrine. It is Scripture that reveals that Jesus is as distinct and different from YHWH as Isaac was from Abraham, that a woman is from her husband…

No, this false. If it were true then you’d be able to show consistant Christian teaching along with your scriptural watchtower interpretation.

It is Scripture that reveals that YHWH is the Most High God and Jesus is his son.

No, Jesus is the Son, the second person of the Godhead. I’ve already shown that “Son of God” in Hebraic thought and Jewish culture means equal to God.

It is Scripture that reveals that Jesus views his Father, YHWH as the “only true God”.

Well, Jesus does view His Father as true God but also Himself as God, and so did Thomas, who said my Lord and My God (John 20:28).

(1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

According to your logic here, men are ergo superior to women?
Paul is using a syllogism, but one that shows positional headship NOT LITERAL headship. God is positionally the head of Christ NOT actually.
In your false syllogism the conclusion means men are superior to women.

(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

This is what a correct translation should read…
John 17:3
“And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
…“true God and Jesus Christ”…are lumped together as Jesus true God.

(Revelation 3:12) “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of **my God **and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.

Rev 1:17
“Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.”
Jesus is God, the alpha and omega and Jesus died and is now alive.
If this is speaking about Jehovah God then when did He die?

(Psalm 110:1-3) The utterance of YHWH to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” 2The rod of your strength YHWH will send out of Zion, [saying:] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.” 3Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force. In the splendors of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, You have your company of young men just like dewdrops.

Again, obviously the watchtower knows nothing about ancient idiomatic writing. To “sit at my right hand” was used to mean a place of authority as the steward would sit at the right hand of the King. Or an important person would sit at the right hand of the King.

(Acts 3:13) The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom YOU, for YOUR part, delivered up and disowned before Pilate’s face, when he had decided to release him.

I don’t see how this verse proves anything against Jesus divinity.

(Psalm 83:18) That people may know that you, whose name is YHWH, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Amen, God is one, and Jesus is worshiped in Hebrews 1:6 “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
The watchtower changed the word worship even though the ancient Greek texts say “worship.”

(Luke 1:31-32) and, look! you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are to call his name Jesus. 32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High.

Another Hebraism that points to Jesus being equal to the Father.

 

[mozart-250]

Steve,
So far you have proven that Jesus isn’t God.

Manny:

I think you meant to say “have not proven that Jesus isn’t God” (good ole double negative there).

(don’t worry…we all get brain/writing cramps once and a while…why else do I often edit a post a gazillion times after I press enter).

 

[BibleSteve]

This only a few of the mounds of citations that show the early church Christian leaders all accepted Jesus as true God from true God

I appreciate reading your quotes. We should also remember that all these individuals were uninspired. So, it’s interesting to note their opinions…

However, it is he Bible that is inspired (2 Tim 3:15, 16).

Also, I give far more creedence to listening to what Jesus says on the topic. He consistently said he was the “Son of God”.

 

[BibleSteve]

I’ve shown in a number of posts and I could show many many more, where Jesus is God, has always been known to be God and I’ve shown in other scripture passages where Jesus is shown to be God because He IS God.

The scriptures do NOT have anywhere close to the same amount of evidence of Jesus being a drunk, a glutton, demonic, from Satan. Those are in isolated verses where Jesus is falsely accused by the Jews. Look at the mounds of evidence for Jesus’ divnity. If there were whole host of passages that said Jesus was something other than God then your statement would be reasonable, but there aren’t with Scripture nor Tradition.
To try to equate metaphorically Jesus being God and Jesus being a drunk, demonic, or Satan is abolutely nuts!:whacky:

The point being made is these Jews were out of control. They weren’t listening to Jesus, they were making all sorts of unfounded claims about what he was saying and doing.

I’m always amused at this exchange:

Jews: “You’re making yourself God!”
Jesus: “I’m only saying I’m the Son of God”.

(John 10:31-36) Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. 32Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?” 33The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36*do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?

Trinitarians are in effect arguing with Jesus just like the Jews were. Jesus says he’s “The Son of God”, and Trinitarians are insisting that no, he’s “God the Son”…

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny:

I think you meant to say “have not proven that Jesus isn’t God” (good ole double negative there).

(don’t worry…we all get brain/writing cramps once and a while…why else do I often edit a post a gazillion times after I press enter).

OOps… My bad. I meant Steve still have not proven that Jesus isn’t God…

 

[BibleSteve]

That’s not the way I see it. The Writings of the ECF shows that Jesus was indeed God made flesh. You still have not even refute the word which Jesus spoke to John of Patmos where Jesus himself, I am the Alpha and the Omega.

It may not be how you see it, but if you do some research on that greek word, you will learn the word isn’t what you think it is. Bowing to someone and paying them homage was a common occurance during that time frame… it didn’t mean a person was “worshipping” the other person. Please do some study before just blindly arguing…

Jesus wasn’t the one saying “I am the Alpha and Omega”…

(Revelation 1:1) A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And **he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs **through him to his slave John,

(Revelation 22:16) “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.’”

Who was doing all the talking here in the book of Revelation according to these scriptures?

 

[BibleSteve]

The Bible clearly shows that he is. I will have to quote John again.

Dear Manny,

For goodness sake, do some homework on John 1:1

You will find that there is quite a debate going on about “The Word was God”… with 50+ other translators pointing out this should be translated as “The Word was god-like, godly, etc.”

 

[BibleSteve]

Quote:
(1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.
According to your logic here, men are ergo superior to women?
Paul is using a syllogism, but one that shows positional headship NOT LITERAL headship. God is positionally the head of Christ NOT actually.
In your false syllogism the conclusion means men are superior to women.

I just love this counterargument. What if I wanted to argue that my wife and I were 2/3rds of a Trinity, or, my wife really was me? You’d have me locked up as being mad.

A man and woman are two distinct indiviudals… no Trinity… there is a position of headship that YHWH has assigned to the man.

Christ and a husband are two distint indivduals… no Trinity… there is a position of headship that YHWH has assigned to Christ over the man.

Likewise, Christ and YHWH are two distint indivduals… no Trinity… there is a position of headship that YHWH has over Christ…

That is why Jesus views his Father as the ONLY true God (John 17:3)… “my God” (Rev 3:12), etc.

God->Christ->Man->Woman

 

[BibleSteve]

Jesus is called “Son of God”, but Trinitarians claim this actually means he is God.

Jesus is also called “Son of David” (Matt 1:1)

By Trinitarian reasoning, Jesus is then David?!?

Jesus is also called “Son of Abraham” (Matt 1:1)

By Trinitarian reasoning, Jesus is then Abraham?!?

Folks… Jesus is called the “Son of God” for a good reason… it’s because he is…

Jesus never said “I am God Almighty”… he said his father was “the only true God” (John 17:3)

 

[Mannyfit75]

Dear Manny,

For goodness sake, do some homework on John 1:1

You will find that there is quite a debate going on about “The Word was God”… with 50+ other translators pointing out this should be translated as “The Word was god-like, godly, etc.”

Not really.

The translations show that the Word is God:

NAB Bible:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race.

NIV:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it

KJV.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

I can go on but all version of the Bible except the JW Bible has the Word was God. None of it say, "The God was like God. The Word also became flesh. This is found in the Bible.

Check these references for yourself. In Matthew 22:42-45, Jesus claims to be the “Lord” of Psalm 110:1. He allows Thomas to address Him as “My Lord and my God” in John 20:28.

He is the “everlasting Father” and “The mighty God” of Isaiah 9:6.

According to His own words in John 10:11-14, He is the “shepherd” of Psalm 23:1, Psalm 80:1, and Ezekiel 34:12.

God is the “saviour” in Isaiah 43:3, 43:11, 45:15, 45:21, Hosea 13:4, Luke 1:47, and I Timothy 4:10, yet this same title is given to Jesus Christ in Luke 2:11, Philippians 3:20, II Timothy 1:10, and II Peter 2:20.

God is the “Rock” of Deuteronomy 32:4, 32:15, 32:18, 32:30-31, I Samuel 2:2, and Psalm 18:31, yet this title is given to the Lord Jesus Christ in I Corinthians 10:1-4, I Peter 2:7-8, and Romans 9:33.

 

[Bishopite]

I appreciate reading your quotes. We should also remember that all these individuals were uninspired. So, it’s interesting to note their opinions…

Although this thread is about “Biblical proof” of the Trinity, showing the early church fathers gives evidence for the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Protestant position on the Trinity. And I know that the watchtower sometimes quotes the ECF’s (wrongly mostly) so I include what these Christian leaders wrote about the Trinity/Jesus’ divinit, as these leaders who were the generations that followed the Apostles.

However, it is he Bible that is inspired (2 Tim 3:15, 16).

 

[Bishopite]

The point being made is these Jews were out of control. They weren’t listening to Jesus, they were making all sorts of unfounded claims about what he was saying and doing.

I’m always amused at this exchange:

Jews: “You’re making yourself God!”
Jesus: “I’m only saying I’m the Son of God”.

 

[BibleSteve]

Dear Manny,

How I wish you were a person who really checked on his facts before making statements like this:

I can go on but all version of the Bible except the JW Bible has the Word was God. None of it say, "The God was like God…

There are 50+ non-JW translation out there contradict what you’ve just said.

 

[BibleSteve]

Dear Bishopite,

Sadly, you are so intent on proving yourself right you are now combining scriptures and discussions that didn’t happen… This reminds me of the 1John 5:7 addition…

Anyways, you’re trying to claim this was the discussion:

Jews: “Your making yourself to be God”
Jesus: That’s because “I AM” [God] (John 8:58)

You’ve combined John 10:31-36 with John 8:58

In reality, when the Jews tried to say Jesus was making himself God, he argued against that saying he only claimed to be the Son of God…

(John 10:31-36) Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. 32Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?” 33The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34*Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?

Combining scriptures to create an illusion of a discussion is pretty devious

 

[cascherman]

Dear Manny,

How I wish you were a person who really checked on his facts before making statements like this:

There are 50+ non-JW translation out there contradict what you’ve just said.

I am interested to see these translations. That sounds like an easy number to throw out there with no proof.

From my experience with a very good friend of mine, who is a JW, we can go on and on and on with semantics of all this but it comes down to one thing…

On what authority do you preach these things? Charles Taze Russell’s? You blew those quotes from the ECF’s off so quickly… so what makes you think Russell’s doctrines are any more accurate and ‘inspired’?

Do you really think the Church that is the prophet of God started in the late 1800’s? Christ said he would NOT leave us orphans, so in fulfilling that he leaves us for 1800+ years?

Maybe if you can show some quotes from early Christians that support your doctrines then this would be a different story, i.e. Michael being Jesus, Jesus’ non-divinity, 144,000 only into heaven, no soul after death… etc.

because every leading early Christian I’ve read contradicts these doctrines, not supports them.

 

[cascherman]

Unfortunately, I feel biblical proof is lost on you. Your organization (or should I say, 5 unschooled men) translated your own bible, making it easier to get away with these doctrines…

The bible can be manipulated in the wrong hands…

 

[BibleSteve]

On what authority do you preach these things? Charles Taze Russell’s? You blew those quotes from the ECF’s off so quickly… so what makes you think Russell’s doctrines are any more accurate and ‘inspired’?.

My authority? I picked up the Bible, read it diligently, studied what all the various religions said about it, and made my own decisions, praying for guidance from God’s holy spirit.

I think it’s interesting to see what others think and what they say, but at the end of the day, I’m responsible for making my own decisions…

I don’t base my beliefs on what the early church fathers said, or what Russell said…

I read the Bible and use it as the authority…

 

[cascherman]

My authority? I picked up the Bible, read it diligently, studied what all the various religions said about it, and made my own decisions, praying for guidance from God’s holy spirit.

I think it’s interesting to see what others think and what they say, but at the end of the day, I’m responsible for making my own decisions…

I don’t base my beliefs on what the early church fathers said, or what Russell said…

I read the Bible and use it as the authority…

You must agree that others have done the same… Catholics, protestants, JW’s, Mormons, even Moslems. And, somehow they all are different. You see now why there NEEDS to be an authority on the subject.

Seriously, lets go by pure chance…
What are the chances that your interpretation or even my personal interpretation (if I chose to do that, which I do not insofar as making my own doctrine) is correct opposed to the 2 billion other Christians personal interpretations (if they chose to make one).

Just like you said that the ECF’s were not inspired. You, are not inspired. But, I think you would find it interesting to read about what doctrines Russell himself came up with after he left fellowship with the SDAs and how many of those are almost identical to JW doctrine.

BTW, just out of curiousity, and I am not trying to run you off, but my friend, a practicing JW, told me he would not be caught dead on a site like this when I told him to check it out. He says he is taught not to participate in these types of websites and if he did participate there would be repercussions with the organization. Is this so?