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pianistclare
Guest
Third!
Bookmarking it for RCIA
Bookmarking it for RCIA
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
Tantum ergo:
Today’s Evangelical/Fundamentalists are on the fringes of Protestant teachings, almost putting themselves with JWs and Mormons! That’s how radical (and IMHO non-Christian their beliefs actually are.) Just because there are SO many of them in the US is a testament to our age of infidelity, not in any soundness to their teachings.
I, for my part, would not cite the ProtoEvangelium as any sort of proof or even evidence of the Perpetual Virginity of the BVM, rather I would cite unanimous Christian teaching and belief (even through the Reformation period.) I would also demand solid OVERWHELMING arguments as to why this long held belief and teaching should be cast aside. Just misinterpreting the Scriptural wording of the Bible is hardly an argument.
This!
Today’s Evangelical/Fundamentalists are on the fringes of Protestant teachings, almost putting themselves with JWs and Mormons! That’s how radical (and IMHO non-Christian their beliefs actually are.) Just because there are SO many of them in the US is a testament to our age of infidelity, not in any soundness to their teachings.
I, for my part, would not cite the ProtoEvangelium as any sort of proof or even evidence of the Perpetual Virginity of the BVM, rather I would cite unanimous Christian teaching and belief (even through the Reformation period.) I would also demand solid OVERWHELMING arguments as to why this long held belief and teaching should be cast aside. Just misinterpreting the Scriptural wording of the Bible is hardly an argument.
T
thistle
Guest
Do these Wesleyans actually realise that John Wesley completely supported the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity?
This is what John Wesley wrote in 1749:
“I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”
J
James248
Guest
They could have been older stepbrothers.
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, James!
…yeah; the point I was making is that “Jesus brethren” could not have been the Virgin’s natural children; upon Christ’s death, it would have been their responsibility to care for the Virgin if they were her children.
Maran atha!
Angel
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mdgspencer
Guest
When the Gospels speak of the brothers or sisters of Jesus, they use Greek words in the original Greek in which the Gospels were written that can mean close relatives, such as cousins. Sorry, such passages don’t prove that Mary had other children. This view is based on lack of knowledge of what these words mean.
B
Borealis
Guest
Neither is the Table of Contents in the front of their Bibles, but I’ll bet they accept that as God’s Truth without question.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Protestants claim that the word “adelphos” only means brothers of the womb. Therefore, they claim that Mary had other children. They base that idea on this verse:
Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Lets focus on that word, “brethren”. The original Greek uses the word “adelphos”. Strong’s lexicon number 80. Let me show you from the Blue Letter Bible:
Mat 13:55
Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren 80, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Now, let’s see a few instances of the word brethren in the New Testament in reference to brethren of Jesus:
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren 80!
Did Jesus just say that all the disciples were His brothers of the womb (adelphos)? I doubt it.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren 80.
Did Jesus just say that we were all born of the same mother?
Mat 28:10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren 80 that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
How many children did the Virgin Mary have again?
Just one folks. The word “adelphos” has many meanings in Scripture.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Scripture is clear that the brothers and sisters of Jesus are actually His cousins. One of the problems with Sola Scriptura is that everyone interprets the Scriptures according to their own ability. Therefore, Sola Scripturists never consider cultural and historical circumstances in regards to translations. For a Sola Scripturist, a “brother” is always a “brother of the womb”. Never mind that they, themselves, call each other “brothers in Christ” all the time. And they speak of “Brother Joe” and “Sister Jane” all the time.
Let us go examine the Scriptures on this matter:
Did Jesus have any brothers?
According to some, Scripture attests that Jesus had brothers, sons of Mary. They base their opinion on this verse:
Matthew 13
55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude:
However, these brothers and sisters in Christ, fail to realize that the word “brother” has meant much more than “brothers of the womb” from time immemorial. Good friends call themselves “brothers” even today. And a closer examination of Scripture proves that James, Joseph, Simon and Jude are sons of another Mary, not Jesus’ mother, but Jesus’ aunt.
First, we see that Jesus’ mother has a “sister”. From Catholic Tradition, we know that Jesus’ mother is an only child. So, her sister is really a cousin or other close kin:
John 19 25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.
We also note that this Mary is always mentioned with Mary Magdalen. The two must have been close friends:
Mark 16 1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought sweet spices, that coming, they might anoint Jesus.
Note that in this verse she is not called Mary of Cleophas, but Mary the mother of James.
Mark 15 40 And there were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joseph, and Salome:
Here she is the mother of James and Joseph and Salome. The mention of Salome explains the “sisters” of Jesus. Since Mary the sister of Mary His Mother is also His sister or kin.
Matthew 27 56 Among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
Luke 24 10 And it was Mary Magdalen, and Joanna, and Mary of James, and the other women that were with them, who told these things to the apostles.
Sometimes she is called “the other” Mary.
Matthew 27 61 And there was there Mary Magdalen, and the other Mary sitting over against the sepulchre.
OK, so far we’ve established that James and Joseph are the sons of the other Mary. Not of Jesus’ mother. What about Simon and Jude?
Luke 6 16 And Jude, the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.
Well, Jude is the brother of James. He says so himself:
Jude 1 1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James: to them that are beloved in God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called.
And, although Simon the Zealot is rarely mentioned, when he is mentioned, he is always grouped with either James or Jude.
Luke 6 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes,
Acts Of Apostles 1 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James.
If we review the listing of Apostles, we will see that the Apostle mentioned as Thaddeus must be Jude and Simon the Zelotes must be Simon the Cananean:
Mark 3 16 And to Simon he gave the name Peter: 17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he named them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: 18 And Andrew and Philip, and Bartholomew and Matthew, and Thomas and James of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, and Simon the Cananean:19 And Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Matthew 10 2 And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, 3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, 4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Acts Of Apostles 1 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James.
Luke 6 13 And when day was come, he called unto him his disciples; and he chose twelve of them (whom also he named apostles). 14 Simon, whom he surnamed Peter, and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes, 16 And Jude, the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.
So, we see that James, Joseph, Jude and Simon are related to Jesus. But they are not the sons of Mary, but her distant kin and thus also Jesus kin.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
What she said!
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, De Maria!
…another one of those problems is that they are the law of the land–it is they who determine when Scriptures are being literal or figurative; it s also their domain to understand things “this way” or “that way,” while owning the prerogative to change their minds/directions of the tenets/arguments; etymology is used to prove or disprove arguments; I think that part of their fluidity comes from not having to be answerable to 1500 years of Church history–which they both reject and/or accept depending upon what side of the argument the “findings” are and whether or not they “seem” to support their disputation/s.
Maran atha!
Angel
R
Renan
Guest
The problem with most people is that they don’t know where to find the true catholic doctrine. If you want to know anything about the Virgin Mary, go to the authors bellow:
Saint Alphonsus de Liguori (“The Glories of Mary”…)
Fr. Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. (“La Madre del Salvador y Nuestra Vida Interior”…)
Fr. Gabriel Roschini, O.S.M. (“La Madre de Dios según la Fe y la Teología”)
Fr. Benoit Merkelbach, O.P. (“Mariología”…)
Fr. Antonio Royo Marín, O.P. (“La Virgen María”…)
Fr. Juniper Carol, O.F.M. (“Mariology”…)
Moreover, it’s good to know some magisterial documents by heart (Ineffabilis Deus, Munificentissimus Deus…).
Saint Alphonsus de Liguori (“The Glories of Mary”…)
Fr. Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. (“La Madre del Salvador y Nuestra Vida Interior”…)
Fr. Gabriel Roschini, O.S.M. (“La Madre de Dios según la Fe y la Teología”)
Fr. Benoit Merkelbach, O.P. (“Mariología”…)
Fr. Antonio Royo Marín, O.P. (“La Virgen María”…)
Fr. Juniper Carol, O.F.M. (“Mariology”…)
Moreover, it’s good to know some magisterial documents by heart (Ineffabilis Deus, Munificentissimus Deus…).
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi!
I fully concur with you. It is my understanding that most Catholics seldom seek to learn about their Faith past the rudimentary catechesis which they receive during their earliest formation or from the RCIA program.
Non-Catholics?.. that’s a whole different matter altogether; they simply reject Church Authority; hence, they hold firmly to the sola Scriptura formula that was created in the thirteen hundreds.
Maran atha!
Angel
C
Cathoholic
Guest
obvious_ron:
Where does it say that Mary had any children other than Jesus?
Ask your pastor these questions and let me know the response (seriously).
Thanks.
God bless.
Cathoholic
(PS The Blessed Virgin Mary is perpetually a Virgin. Your pastor will not be able to give you answers that refute the Catholic position, but it will be interesting to hear what she says [or he?].)
obvious_ron. What are “brothers” in an ancient Hebrew Biblical sense?
Where does it say that Mary had any children other than Jesus?
Ask your pastor these questions and let me know the response (seriously).
Thanks.
God bless.
Cathoholic
(PS The Blessed Virgin Mary is perpetually a Virgin. Your pastor will not be able to give you answers that refute the Catholic position, but it will be interesting to hear what she says [or he?].)
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