Biblical references to salvation

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OK this seems crackers to me, but I’m trying to explain Catholic Salvation vs. OSAS and I’ve been hit with this-

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

Can anyone help me with an understanding of how this verse fits into Catholic soteriology?
 
FightingFat said:
OK this seems crackers to me, but I’m trying to explain Catholic Salvation vs. OSAS and I’ve been hit with this-

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

Can anyone help me with an understanding of how this verse fits into Catholic soteriology?
Click to expand...
This fits perfectly with Catholic Doctrine. We are not saved by our Good Works. Our Salvation is a gift from God, so that no one should boast that they “earned their salvation”.

But…

Ask your friend to read the next line:
Eph. 2:10 - “For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”

We were created to do good works. They are a sign of our faith, for as James said, “Faith without Works is Dead”…

Ask your friend to show you anywhere in the Gospels where Jesus says we are to be judged by anything other than by our works.
 
FightingFat said:
OK this seems crackers to me, but I’m trying to explain Catholic Salvation vs. OSAS and I’ve been hit with this-

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

Can anyone help me with an understanding of how this verse fits into Catholic soteriology?
Click to expand...
You really have to study the bible, Church teaching extensively to answer this.
In this verse, St. Paul is NOT speaking of obeying Jesus, or obeying God, when he refers to works. He is refering to those Christians who said that Christians also had to follow the ritual and ceremonial laws of the Jewish religion to be saved. Since Jesus never said Christians were never under the law of Moses, (only Jews are under the law of Moses), then Christians do not have to be circumcised (works). Thus, if Christians are circumcised, with the view of obtaining salvation, then they are doing so on their own, apart from God’s grace. Thus, they are trying to earn their salvation. If man can earn his own salvation, then Jesus died for nothing.
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 In James, he says we are justified by works and not by faith alone.  In this instance he is refering to OBEYING GOD, when we keep His commandments.  Jesus taught, through His Church that He promised to give us  the grace of salvation which He earned on the cross,  first through the sacraments, baptism, esp. the Eucharist, etc., then when we obey Him we receive more of this grace which justifies us. 

 Thus, through faith, (believing what He has revealed through) which says we can receive the grace of salvation through His sacraments, and this grace justifies us, and by means of this grace we can obey Him, and thus receive more of this grace which saves us and justifies us.
Thus, James is referring to those who keep the moral commandments, out of faith and love of Jesus, and thus they are obeying God.
Paul is referring to those Christians who follow the old Mosaic law, the ceremonial and ritual parts, because certain men said so, (not because Jesus said so, thus not out of faith), thus they are not obeying God, but are doing things on their own, (works), and thus receive no grace which justifies them.

This can go on into more detail, but this is the basic part.
See the Council of Trent, Jimmy Akin’s book on salvation and Tim Staples writings on salvation to understand the Protestant errors.
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But, also be aware, that all this focuses on the justificational aspects of salvation, and then we tend to miss the primary meaning of salvation.
The primary meaning of salvation is that Jesus came to free us from everything that oppresses us, especially sin, and the power of the devil. See Pope Paul VI “Evangelization in the Modern World”, Pope John Paul II “Mission of the Redeemer” and the “General Directory for Catechesis” to understand this more fully. I will also try to post some more on the primary meaning.

Protestants usually miss this meaning entirely, because in Protestantism salvation is by faith alone. Thus, no sin can keep a believer out of heaven. Thus, Jesus did not come primarily to free us from the slavery of sin, since there is no point in being freed from our sins, since sin can’t keep one out of heaven. Thus, Jesus just came to justify us, which in Protetestantism means that Jesus only declares us righteous, even though we are still full of sin.

So, they tend to entirely miss the primary meaning of salvation. And when they do focus on it, they have no idea how to receive this grace that will free them from their sins. They guess a lot, but it is all guesswork, since the bible is not clear on any teaching, since the bible is primarily salvation history, and it does not claim to be a summary of the Gospel that the apostles taught and preached.
 
I find it helpful to read the entire chp or even the whole book/letter,when talking to non-C’s.

Check out the footnotes from the NAB for chp 2.Your friend is taking just a small part and using it out of context.Thats what happens when we try to figure this stuff out on our own.

2 [1-10] The recipients of Paul’s letter have experienced, in their redemption from transgressions and sins, the effect of Christ’s supremacy over the power of the devil (Eph 2:1-2; cf Eph 6:11-12), who rules not from the netherworld but from the air between God in heaven and human beings on earth. Both Jew and Gentile have experienced, through Christ, God’s free gift of salvation that already marks them for a future heavenly destiny (Eph 2:3-7). The language dead, raised us up, and seated us . . . in the heavens closely parallels Jesus’ own passion and Easter experience. The terms in Eph 2:8-9 describe salvation in the way Paul elsewhere speaks of justification: by grace, through faith, the gift of God, not from works; cf Gal 2:16-21; Romans 3:24-28. Christians are a newly created people in Christ, fashioned by God for a life of goodness (Eph 2:10).

Heres a whole run down on Ephesians

catholic.org/phpframedirect/out.php?url=http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/index.htm

Thats a baby Catholics best shot at helping ya buddy,God Bless.

Frank
 
You might throw the Council of Trent, Session VI at him:

**Canon 1.
**If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
(Paraphrase: You can’t earn initial justification - it’s a gift; this refutes the Pelagians.)

**Canon 2.
**If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.
(Paraphrase: Grace doesn’t just get you started - it is responsible for the whole process; this refutes the Semi-Pelagians.)
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 **Canon 3.
**If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost and     without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought, so that     the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.
(Paraphrase: God’s grace, through the HS, comes to us before faith - again with the Semi-Pelagians.)

That should get you past the whole “not of works” argument. After that, I like to give the following analogy to help clarify the Catholic position and contrast it with the Protestant ones:

Let’s say that instead of justification or salvation or sanctification or any of those complex and very precise words (which Catholics and Protestants sometimes define differently), let’s say that instead of calling it “Eternal Life”, we call it “a puppy”. It may sound silly, but hear me out…

How can you make God give you a puppy?
What can you do to make God give you a puppy?
Is there any work that you can perform that forces God to give you a puppy?

OF COURSE NOT! That’s good orthodox Christianity.

If God wants to give you a puppy, that’s His choice - you can’t make God give you anything by your own works. Here’s the thing, though - God wants to give you a puppy! All you have to do is say “Yes”.

So great. Now you have a puppy. Now what?

Well…you have to take care of it, silly! You have to feed it and walk it and potty train it - it takes work! If you don’t take care of your puppy, your puppy will die.

Now, God (just like every parent with their kids) knew going into this deal that you wouldn’t take very good care of the puppy, no matter what you said to the contrary. He knew that you wouldn’t always walk it or feed it daily. Maybe you do a pretty good job of things and mostly take care of your puppy, and if you do - GREAT! As long as your puppy makes it (even barely), you’re in. Welcome to Heaven!

If not, however, you’re like most of us and have let our puppies die; most times we let our puppies die through neglect, not malice. (This is what Catholics call a “mortal sin”.) It doesn’t really matter which way we kill our puppies, though, because in the end we’re still stuck with a dead puppy.

Here’s where God comes in again - He can restore your puppy to life! That’s part of the really good news! If our puppies die, God can bring them back and give us another chance. (The process for restoring our puppies to life according to the Bible is confession.) WARNING: Confession involves true contrition, which means we’re actually sorry for our sins (not just saying sorry, but actually meaning it). If we apologize to God and promise to try really hard not to do it again, He’ll raise our puppy for us. He paid that price.

So what do Catholics think about faith and works? You can’t “earn” a puppy, but if you don’t take care of it your puppy will die. If your puppy does die, God will bring it back to life if you’re actually sorry and promise to do your best to take care of your puppy in the future. If you die with a puppy, you get to enjoy the eternal puppy-love of God (a million times magnified).

Protestants (by and large) don’t think that you need to keep your puppy living to make it to heaven - just that you would want to if you were really “saved”, and if your puppy happens to die then it doesn’t really matter because you had a puppy at some point and that’s enough. They (by and large) think that it’s very important to tell God you’re sorry about killing your puppy and would like to get a new one, but most would say that it’s not a strict necessity and wouldn’t keep you out of Heaven if you did not. All that matters is that at one point God gave you a puppy. That’s “faith alone” and “once saved, always saved.”

Hope that helps.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
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