Biblical Scholars: Are there any other examples of the Imperative tense in Greek in Scripture other than the Great Commission at Mt 28:19-20?

[PRmerger]

How about this?

Dan

I don’t believe it was ridiculing you. Certainly, the mods didn’t.

I don’t apologize for that little analogy–I think it was quite trenchant and perhaps a little bit funny, if I do say so myself.

If there’s another example of a post in which I have ridiculed your beliefs, or ridiculed you personally, I will apologize if I, in retrospect, regret making that comment.

 

[PRmerger]

Dan:
This is not preaching. I do this for fun.

LOL!!

So, a JW who claims that Jesus’ command to preach is of the highest priority, that it takes precedence over all other things, now is saying that when he’s* talking about his faith *online it’s not preaching? :whacky:

Did you dedicate yourself to be “primarily ministers of God and his Christ” except when you talk about your faith online?

 

[PRmerger]

I’m glad you cited wiki, as I will now also use it as a source.

Why would you be embarrassed to note that your religion was founded in 1870 by Charles Taze Russell? It’s a historical fact, and if I were a JW I would proclaim it as fact.

 

[PRmerger]

[The book Sacred Origins of Profound Things states: “For two centuries after Christ’s birth, no one knew, and few people cared, exactly when he was born.”

Ok. What point are you making? The CC has never said that it’s important to believe that Jesus was truly born on Dec. 25. We simply observe his birth on that day. When was the actual date? No one knews and no one really cares.

More later…
[/quote]

 

[PJM]

=PRmerger;5621823]So I’m in a discussion with a Jehovah’s Witness on another thread in which the JW claims that all other teachings are secondary to the “Great Commission” in Mt 28:19-20. That is, preaching is the most important thing Christ commanded us to do.

Naturally, as a Catholic I take issue with the primacy that is given to the Great Commission by the JWs.

The JW poster claims that because the word rendered “make disciples” is in the Greek Imperative, that gives it primacy over all the other commands and exhortations of Christ.

I asked if there were any other examples of the use of the Greek Imperative tense in Scripture, but am not getting any response.

It would seem obvious that there *must *be other examples of the Imperative tense in Scripture, but I am not a Biblical scholar, so I am opening up this thread in the hopes of enlightenment!

*** If as you are implying the JW truly understands the mandates of Mt. 16: 15-19 why is this person not a Catholic? Hmmmmm.

While no expert on Greek, these verses to are mandates from Jesus. John 3:5. John 20:21-23 and Matthew 19: 17 ***

Love and prayers,

 

[PRmerger]

The World Book Encyclopedia says, the early Christians “considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”

Do you have the citation for that, dave? I did do a google search and only found JW sites that say, “The World Book Encyclopedia says, the early Christians “considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom”, which, of course, begs the question (coming from a JW site).

 

[Dan_Parker]

LOL!!

So, a JW who claims that Jesus’ command to preach is of the highest priority, that it takes precedence over all other things, now is saying that when he’s* talking about his faith *online it’s not preaching? :whacky:

Did you dedicate yourself to be “primarily ministers of God and his Christ” except when you talk about your faith online?

I view my ministry as my door to door activity. Everyone gets to have a hobby, don’t they? Instead of playing golf I discuss theology.

Dan

 

[PRmerger]

[While no expert on Greek, these verses to are mandates from Jesus. John 3:5. John 20:21-23 and Matthew 19: 17 *

Love and prayers,

Indeed. The Greek imperative was really irrelevant to the discussion, it would seem, as there are many other mandates from Jesus that use it.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Indeed. The Greek imperative was really irrelevant to the discussion, it would seem, as there are many other mandates from Jesus that use it.

I really don’t understand what your point is here. How can the imperatives here compare to the commission? In particular, which of these would cause you to continue to criticize Jehovah’s Witnesses for considering the making of disciples more important than secular pursuits?

John 3:5 - No imperative in this verse
John 20:21-23 - **receive **holy spirit
Matthew 19: 17 - **keep **the commandments

-Dan

 

[PRmerger]

In particular, which of these would cause you to continue to criticize Jehovah’s Witnesses for considering the making of disciples more important than secular pursuits?

I have never criticized the JWs for considering the making of disciples more important than secular pursuits. You are making a very Catholic statement when you say that the making of disciples is more important than secular pursuits!

Here’s (again) what I asked: (see original post)

Me:
Where do you see that it (the GC) is given any more priority than “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you shall not have life within you” or “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” or “Feed my sheep” or “Love your enemies” or “Go and sin no more”.

It’s quite peculiar to pick out one commandment and claim Jesus is setting a priority, when the text indicates no such thing.

Show us where does He make it a priority? Remember, He gave many commands to His disciples and I want to know how JWs know what’s the priority.

You:
I will be glad to demonstrate this from the Greek text. In Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus gives his last instructions for his disciples.

That was the first time, in our dialogue, that you brought up the Greek, Dan. It was in response to why JWs put such a high priority over the GC, vs other commands. You responded that you’d be able to show me why this is through Greek.

It turned out to be a whacky diversion.

 

[PRmerger]

Learning the truth about the non- Christian religious origins of popular customs can have a marvelous liberating effect. No longer do we feel obligated to follow practices that have proved to be a burden, financially and otherwise, to people of the world. And, most important, our knowing the truth frees us to pursue the course that is pleasing to Jehovah, so that we may find everlasting life in his righteous new system.—John 8:32; Romans 6:21,22…

Even *if *something did originate in a pagan custom, Christianity reformed it and made it holy!

Why do police say it is probavbly the worst time for spousal abuse reports and suicide.

That is no more a condemnation of Christmas than automobile accidents are a condemnation of automobiles.

 

[Dan_Parker]

PRmerger:
I have never criticized the JWs for considering the making of disciples more important than secular pursuits. You are making a very Catholic statement when you say that the making of disciples is more important than secular pursuits!

Dan:
I think I understand the confusion. This discussion started on the non-Catholic board in the LDS/JW thread, did it not?

It was you and zerenius against me. I most likely did not distinguish between the two of you and was arguing against the sum of your arguments.

At this point I don’t really care enough about this thread to unravel the mess. I do beleive that in Greek when a command is presented in the Imperative mood the speaker is making it forceful in a way that cannot always be distinguished in English.

Dan

 

[PRmerger]

I do beleive that in Greek when a command is presented in the Imperative mood the speaker is making it forceful in a way that cannot always be distinguished in English.

Dan

Ok. But no one–zerinus nor I–was telling you the GC was NOT a command or not to be obeyed. It was simply a strawman…sigh.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Ok. But no one–zerinus nor I–was telling you the GC was NOT a command or not to be obeyed. It was simply a strawman…sigh.

Actually zerinius was telling me that a non-Christian who did deeds of charity would be rewarded in heaven. He said if someone ran a soup kitchen and was not a Christian and who did not believe in Jesus they would get to heaven. I have to admit I was lumping the two of you together… but hey… I cannot prove you really are not zerinus anyway!

Dan

 

[PRmerger]

Actually zerinius was telling me that a non-Christian who did deeds of charity would be rewarded in heaven. He said if someone ran a soup kitchen and was not a Christian and who did not believe in Jesus they would get to heaven.

Well, the Good Samaritan was not a Christian either, yet Jesus cites him as the example of someone who is righteous.

I have to admit I was lumping the two of you together… but hey… I cannot prove you really are not zerinus anyway!

Dan

And…mysterious music playing…no one has ever claimed to see zerinus and me in the same room either…

 

[Dan_Parker]

Well, the Good Samaritan was not a Christian either, yet Jesus cites him as the example of someone who is righteous.

And…mysterious music playing…no one has ever claimed to see zerinus and me in the same room either…

I thought Jesus refered to him as a neighbor. Where was he declared righteous?
NAB Luke 10:36 Which of these three, in your opinion, was neighbor to the robbers’ victim?"

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

I’m glad you cited wiki, as I will now also use it as a source.

Why would you be embarrassed to note that your religion was founded in 1870 by Charles Taze Russell? It’s a historical fact, and if I were a JW I would proclaim it as fact.

Actually, I verify everything I use from the wiki and don’t consider it to be error free. However that being said, while I did not read every word on the wiki, I did not see anything that jumped out as wrong. I will read it later in more detail.

The point I made was that Russell did not claim to have independently originated any doctrine. He gives credit to other denominations. This is what he said about something that happened in 1869 when he was walking near his store on Federal Street. He heard singing coming from a basement hall.

*** jv chap. 5 pp. 43-44 Proclaiming the Lord’s Return (1870-1914) ***
“Seemingly by accident, one evening I dropped into a dusty, dingy hall, where I had heard religious services were held, to see if the handful who met there had anything more sensible to offer than the creeds of the great churches. There, for the first time, I heard something of the views of Second Adventists [Advent Christian Church], the preacher being Mr.Jonas Wendell ..*. Thus, **I confess indebtedness to Adventists as well as to other denominations. **

Dan

 

[dj_dave]

Even *if *something did originate in a pagan custom, Christianity reformed it and made it holy!

Christianity reformed it and made it holy!

END QUOTE

SO YOU ARE TOLD. Colossians 2:8. Rom 10:3
The Bible is absolutley clear when it comes to accepting or
absorbing anything with a false religious origin. REMEMBER NOW…

(Romans 15:4) For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.

(Leviticus 18:1-5) 18 And Jehovah continued to speak to Moses, saying: 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel, and you must say to them, ‘I am Jehovah YOUR God. 3 The way the land of Egypt does, in which YOU dwelt, YOU must not do; and the way the land of Ca′naan does, into which I am bringing YOU, YOU must not do; and in their statutes YOU must not walk. 4 My judicial decisions YOU should carry out, and my statutes YOU should keep so as to walk in them. I am Jehovah YOUR God. 5 And YOU must keep my statutes and my judicial decisions, which if a man will do, he must also live by means of them. I am Jehovah.

(Deuteronomy 12:30) Watch out for yourself for fear you may be entrapped after them, after they have been annihilated from before you, and for fear you may inquire respecting their gods, saying, ‘How was it these nations used to serve their gods? And I, yes, I, will do the same way.’

HERE IS HOW ONE PERSON REASONS:

It is not a sin to celebrate the resurrection, and not a sin to use to the word Easter,* no matter what its origin.*** It is not a sin to gather at sunrise to worship our Savior. Easter is the spring celebration of Christians honoring the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Easter is not a time when Christians honor Eostre, an Anglo-Saxon goddess.
I do not think we can be “neutral” about celebrating such a key event in our Savior’s life, such a key event in our own salvation. Christians are not neutral about the victory over sin and death that Jesus won. So I encourage Christians to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Some may choose to do it one day, some on another, some perhaps on several days each year. Wonderful! Let good news be celebrated!
It is not a sin to eat chocolate eggs and chocolate rabbits, or to eat eggs that have been colored and dyed. These things are no more pagan today than the names of the days of the week and month are. The same logic that one might be offended by the word “Easter” would suggest that the same person should be offended by “Sunday,” “Thursday,” or “Saturday.” Whatever pagan associations these names may have once had are now gone. No one suspects that egg-dyers or egg-hunters are worshiping other gods.

Again Rom 10:3

In The Easter Book, Weiser justifies all of this by saying that the church has ‘elevated the pre-Christian symbolism of nature into a Christian sacramental.’ Non-Christian practices, he says, “have added a charming touch to the supernatural meanings of the [Easter] season.”

Admittedly, the sight of children scrambling for brightly colored eggs may seem “charming.” The same could be said for many Easter customs. But are they simply harmless fun? Said one Greek café owner: “I know that the egg—it is stupid; and the bunny—more stupid; and that we fast for 40 days before Easter—it’s stupid. But this adds a bit of spice to our life.”

. Perhaps. But sincere Christians are concerned that the Bible says: again: “For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness?. ‘“Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,” says Jehovah, “and quit touching the unclean thing.”’” (2*Corinthians 6:14-17) Surely that would include customs that are clearly derived from—or unmistakably resemble—false religious practices. True, YOU ARGUE that such practices become acceptable when brought into the church. However, it was this same line of reasoning that once nearly led the Israelites to ruin!

In violation of God’s command, they made a golden calf. (Exodus 20:4) It was no doubt modeled after idols they had seen in Egypt. Then they used the idol in a rite they called “a festival to Jehovah.” But did Jehovah God feel that this added “charm” to his worship? On the contrary! Only Moses’ intervention spared the Israelites from extermination!—Exodus 32:1-5,9-14.

Easter customs—eggs, bunnies, and bonfires—are therefore not cleansed by being practiced by Christians. Rather, they defile anyone practicing them.—Compare Haggai 2:12,13.

(Isaiah 52:11) Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean; get out from the midst of her, keep yourselves clean, YOU who are carrying the utensils of Jehovah.

When the Israelites left Babylon to return to Jerusalem, they were to heed this inspired exhortation: “Get out of there, touch nothing unclean; … keep yourselves clean.” (Isaiah 52:11) The Israelites were returning home primarily to restore Jehovah’s worship. That worship had to be clean—not tainted by any of the God-dishonoring teachings, practices, and customs of Babylonish religion.

Today, we as true Christians must be careful not to become contaminated by false worship. (1 Corinthians 10:21) Caution is essential in this regard, for the influence of false religion is pervasive. In many lands, various traditions, activities, and rituals are connected with false religious teachings, such as the notion that something inside us survives death. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6,10) True Christians avoid customs involving false religious beliefs. We will not allow pressure from others to cause us to compromise the Bible’s standards of clean worship.—Acts 5:29.

Quote
That is no more a condemnation of Christmas than automobile accidents are a condemnation of automobiles
End Quote

Not really, when one gets into a car they should KNOW that there is a great chance of an accident–when one gets married that SHOULD BE the furthest thing from their mind.

A little girl drew a wonderful picture and spent a lot of time on the details for her Grandmother and wanted to give it to her for Christmas or birthday, can’t remember. Anyway, the grandmother died before she could give it to her…sad. JW’s would not have waited for some special day.

 

[zerinus]

However, this goes a bit beyond our original thread. I was responding to critics of Jehovah’s Witnesses who denigrate us because we do put the preaching work first and foremost in our lives and don’t pursue secular pursuits in a manner that detracts from our ministry.

“Denigration” is the wrong word. I think that the JWs have every right to preach their gospel as they understand it, and give it as high a priority in their lives as they want to. The issue that I have with the Watchtower society is that firstly, that is not the real reason why they discourage their members from pursuing advanced education or developing high profile careers. The real reason is to prevent them from drifting away from being JWs.

Secondly, the gospel they preach is false, and they have no mandate from Jesus Christ to preach it. The command that Jesus gave to “make disciples of all nations” is not equivalent to “make JWs of all nations”.

The word baptizing is a participle in Greek (ie verbal adjective) and is not in the imperative mood. I would consider this participle to be “telic” (ie purpose) or perhaps participle of “result” with the sense that Jesus is commanding Christians to make disciples with the end result of them being baptized.

Dan

A more important consideration is how they are to be baptized. The commandment says that they are to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, which you evidently don’t.

Ok. First of all–how do you hyperlink a particular post like you did above? The only thing I know how to do is cite the original thread and then refer the reader to the post #. Thanks.

If you right-click on the # number at the top of each post, and select “Copy shortcut” from the menu, that is the link to that individual post. You can also do something else: if you left-click on the # number at the top right hand corner of the post, it opens up as a separate window. Now if you right-click on the link at the top of that window that follows “Thread: …”, and copy the shortcut, that is the URL that takes you to that post within the thread itself (i.e. you can move to the posts above or below it).

I place my cursor on the post number (in this case #44) and copy the link (right-click >> copy link location) which is in this example forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5632537&postcount=44

Dan

That is if he is using Firefox. What if he isn’t!

Actually zerinius was telling me that a non-Christian who did deeds of charity would be rewarded in heaven. He said if someone ran a soup kitchen and was not a Christian and who did not believe in Jesus they would get to heaven.

I said nothing about “running soup kitchens”. I said that being charitable and merciful is more important in the eyes of God than having a particular set of beliefs. I think that is what gets you saved more than anything else. To the dogmatic Pharisees Jesus replied: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone” (Matthew 23:23). Paul’s great sermon on charity (1 Cor. 13) I believe means that that is the primary consideration in determining is one is saved.

Being charitable does not mean running “soup kitchens”. There is an old adage that says, “Charity begins at home”. There is a lot more to charity than running soup kitchens.

Well, the Good Samaritan was not a Christian either, yet Jesus cites him as the example of someone who is righteous.

True!

And…mysterious music playing…no one has ever claimed to see zerinus and me in the same room either…

I can see that my name has been taken in vain quite a lot in this thread. Did you ask my permission by any chance?

I thought Jesus refered to him as a neighbor. Where was he declared righteous?
NAB Luke 10:36 Which of these three, in your opinion, was neighbor to the robbers’ victim?"

Dan

Being “neighbor” means being “righteous”. The question started about how one is saved, then it led into how to become a good neighbor.

Luke 10:

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

---

You become a “good neighbor” in order to fulfill the condition for being saved.

 

[PRmerger]

I thought Jesus refered to him as a neighbor. Where was he declared righteous?
NAB Luke 10:36 Which of these three, in your opinion, was neighbor to the robbers’ victim?"

Dan

Yeah. What zerinus said. me pointing to zerinus with my thumb