Biblical Support for Sacraments being a vehicle of grace

[guanophore]

someone who received a water ceremony before they were old enough to make a decision to profess their belief in Jesus.

I have not heard this characterization of baptism before. This seems like an anti-Catholic formulation.

The Apostles only taught “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”. We have received no “water ceremonies” from the Apostles. Neither does the Catholic Church teach any “water ceremonies”.

They will baptize this person who has never received a believer’s baptism.

Yes, this is why they were called Anabaptists, or “again baptizers”. Since the Apostles taught that the first baptism is valid, giving them another when they reached the age of reason/belief was unnecessary.

the person said that they got baptized the first time without having a saving faith in Christ.

Yes, this is the main motive for “believers baptism” or anabaptism. Infants and children are baptized through the saving faith of their parents/godparents, just as Jesus was circumcised through the faith of His parents.

The Baptist Church doesn’t go around telling people that they need to get re-baptized.

They tell Catholics they need to be baptized because they don’t accept their first baptism as valid.

That is why I say the only person who can answer that question is Simon.

Well, we don’t see the Apostles calling him to be baptized again because he did not have a saving faith. We see them confronting him with his sin which results in repentance.

Ultimately that is the questions for each of us. Do we love Jesus and follow our religion because that is what we were taught to do, or because someone expects to do those things, or to try and get something for ourselves, or to try and impress others? Or do we love Jesus and follow our religion because God has changed our hearts and as a result we want Him to be glorified in all things.

These things are not mutually exclusive. While it is ideal that we would follow HIs commandments because we love Him, it is not wrong to follow our religion because we were taught to do so, or because itis expected, or because we want to escape the pains of sin. Even if we do what is right to impress others, God is able to work through all of these less than ideal motives to make us grow in grace.

 

[lanman87]

That is fine and would be an entirely different debate. My point is are you born anew because of your “emotional experience” or are you born anew because of the Holy Spirit.

We are born again by the Holy Spirit. The emotional experience is optional However, from a practical perspective, when someone is converted to faith in Christ there is often a great amount of joy and excitement and gratitude.

Wonderful emotional story. However, I don’t get the same picture as you seem to be portraying. I see a teenager that was convicted to be Baptized.

I see a teenager that was convinced by friends/family to be baptized instead of by conviction of the Holy Spirit. I see a teenager that knew how to be religious because she was taught to be religious by church/family but never had been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

But what I see doesn’t matter. That lady knew her spiritual condition and whether or not she really believed or was just following a religious system. It is her relationship with God and she needed to do what she thought was best to “make her calling and election sure”.

 

[guanophore]

Well, Southern Baptist don’t believe one is born anew in baptism. We believe one is born anew at conversion. Baptism is part of the conversion process but it is the last part that signifies that conversion has happened.

This is not what the Apostles taught, but it is a worthy extraction from the text of the NT. If one is lacking the other half of the deposit of faith, I think it is very logical to come to this conclusion.

 

[lanman87]

These things are not mutually exclusive. While it is ideal that we would follow HIs commandments because we love Him, it is not wrong to follow our religion because we were taught to do so, or because itis expected, or because we want to escape the pains of sin. Even if we do what is right to impress others, God is able to work through all of these less than ideal motives to make us grow in grace.

I was taught that following religious practices without a changed heart/saving faith in Christ, while it may have some temporal value, does nothing as far as our relationship with God is concerned. Those things may ultimately draw us to having saving faith but “Being religious” without a saving faith does nothing for us eternally.

 

[rcwitness]

I agree. How can i agree with you here, and yet still believe in Catholic Teaching?

Maybe because what you are criticizing is not what the Catholic faith encourages. Maybe people like Simon the Magician have infultrated the Church, and the Church lacks the works of mercy to admonish these vain believers.

In fact, thats precisely why ive said the Sacrame ts are NOT magic. On Gods part they confer grace, but on our part we must allow them to work in our heart, minds, and soul.

 

[rcwitness]

If water Baptism in Scripture is too difficult to see the efficacy of the Holy Spirit conferring grace, then how do Evangelicals perceive the Biblical account of the Holy Spirit being conferred through the Laying on of Hands?

 

[guanophore]

I was taught that following religious practices without a changed heart/saving faith in Christ, while it may have some temporal value, does nothing as far as our relationship with God is concerned. Those things may ultimately draw us to having saving faith but “Being religious” without a saving faith does nothing for us eternally.

I agree with you, but God is able to work through a life of religious observance to bring grace that will lead a person to a relationship with Him. Such was the case for the house of Cornelius.

 

[MT1926]

However, from a practical perspective, when someone is converted to faith in Christ there is often a great amount of joy and excitement and gratitude.

I can see what you are saying here. However, being one that was born and raised in the faith I was taught it, believed it and lived it. I can’t really understand what an “emotional experience” is or means. From my experience emotions being the driving force behind an objective decision quite often leads to disaster, once the emotions wear off.

It is her relationship with God and she needed to do what she thought was best to “make her calling and election sure”.

That was my entire point. She did what she thought was best to make her calling and election sure with God. In this entire statement, just like I believe is what she did in reality, she put herself in the drivers seat to make sure she was secure with her calling and election. When in actuality it was the Holy Spirit in control from the beginning. The Bible says many are called but few are chosen. How exactly does one guarantee ones own election?

I was taught that following religious practices without a changed heart/saving faith in Christ, while it may have some temporal value, does nothing as far as our relationship with God is concerned.

This was interesting to me, could you expand on this teaching a little further.

How does one know that their heart has changed enough that they know have “saving faith” in Christ?

Also, where is it taught that religious practices are of some mere temporal value?

Finally, why would Jesus command us to do something that has a mere temporal value?

Thanks

 

[lanman87]

I can see what you are saying here. However, being one that was born and raised in the faith I was taught it, believed it and lived it. I can’t really understand what an “emotional experience” is or means. From my experience emotions being the driving force behind an objective decision quite often leads to disaster, once the emotions wear off.

That is why I said the emotional experience is optional. For someone raised to believe and trust in Christ then the conversion process is more of a confirmation (yes I said confirmation) of faith than a radical change filled with emotion. I was raised to believe in Christ and remember lying in bed when I was 5 years old asking Jesus to forgive me of my sins. Under Baptist doctrine, I came to faith and was born again (albeit a very immature faith) when I was a young child and confirmed my faith when I was 14 by baptism. It is when I came to emotionally and intellectually came to understand the need to be baptized.

How exactly does one guarantee ones own election?

By living a life of faith.

This was interesting to me, could you expand on this teaching a little further.

Religious practices are of temporal value if the moral law is followed. If someone believes that drunkenness is wrong and never gets drunk then they don’t have to worry about being an alcoholic. If they don’t believe sex should be outside of marriage then they probably (if there spouse believes the same thing) don’t have to worry about getting an STD. Someone doesn’t have to be religious to follow those moral laws, however, most religions emphasize the moral laws that, when followed, benefit us temporally, but without a saving faith they are of no benefit eternally. Also, just being religious can give someone a support system that they wouldn’t otherwise have.

How does one know that their heart has changed enough that they know have “saving faith” in Christ?

If you truly trust in Christ and Love him, then don’t you know it?

Finally, why would Jesus command us to do something that has a mere temporal value?

I didn’t say it had a mere temporal value. Following the commands of Christ when you have a saving faith produces great benefits, both for yourself and for others and both now and eternally.

Following the commands of Christ apart from faith may keep us from having to deal with the temporal consequences of sin and produce some great relationships but they do not cleanse us from sin and put is in a right relationship with God.

 

[guanophore]

How does one know that their heart has changed enough that they know have “saving faith” in Christ?

Also, where is it taught that religious practices are of some mere temporal value?

Finally, why would Jesus command us to do something that has a mere temporal value?

I am mindful that Jesus was clear that loving God is demonstrated by doing God’s will, whether you feel like it, or not. In fact, the less you feel like doing it, the more important it is to do so. The parable of the two sons comes to mind (Matt. 21;29). Which son actually did the father’s will? The cheerful and agreeable one who externally agreed, or the one who didn’t want to go but changed his mind and went?

Saving faith is faith that works, so we will know them by their fruits. So what does that say of a person who has a fruitful life full of religious obedience, but feels empty inside (as if they don’t have a relationship to Christ?)

Jesus does not command us to do things with no eternal value.

 

[guanophore]

Religious practices are of temporal value if the moral law is followed. If someone believes that drunkenness is wrong and never gets drunk then they don’t have to worry about being an alcoholic. If they don’t believe sex should be outside of marriage then they probably (if there spouse believes the same thing) don’t have to worry about getting an STD. Someone doesn’t have to be religious to follow those moral laws, however, most religions emphasize the moral laws that, when followed, benefit us temporally, but without a saving faith they are of no benefit eternally.

Then we are back to identifying “saving faith”. If it is not the emotional experience, is it one’s perception of when they became “born again”? Is it when they have a “believers baptism” to “publicly demonstrate their faith” (another concept not found in scripture)?

If you truly trust in Christ and Love him, then don’t you know it?

There are plenty of people who believed they had saving faith, then fell away from the faith. Some of them will then say they no longer believe as they did.
Others will say that, since they fell away from their professed faith, they were never saved in the first place.

I didn’t say it had a mere temporal value. Following the commands of Christ when you have a saving faith produces great benefits, both for yourself and for others and both now and eternally.

You did say that. You are adding now to your statement that it only has eternal benefits if “saving faith” is present.

What did St. Paul write about the judgment of those who follow the moral law but are outside the community of the moral law?

Following the commands of Christ apart from faith may keep us from having to deal with the temporal consequences of sin and produce some great relationships but they do not cleanse us from sin and put is in a right relationship with God.

We will agree on this point. Good deeds cannot get us to heaven, but good deeds and participation in a religious life can often lead one into a relationship with Christ where one becomes justified and sanctified. Cornelius may be a case in point.

 

[lanman87]

You did say that. You are adding now to your statement that it only has eternal benefits if “saving faith” is present.

This is what I said.

I was taught that following religious practices without a changed heart/saving faith in Christ, while it may have some temporal value, does nothing as far as our relationship with God is concerned. Those things may ultimately draw us to having saving faith but “Being religious” without a saving faith does nothing for us eternally.

Following religion may have temporal value but without faith they do nothing for us eternally.
I didn’t say anything about following religious practices while having a saving faith.

 

[MT1926]

Religious practices are of temporal value if the moral law is followed. If someone believes that drunkenness is wrong and never gets drunk then they don’t have to worry about being an alcoholic. If they don’t believe sex should be outside of marriage then they probably (if there spouse believes the same thing) don’t have to worry about getting an STD. Someone doesn’t have to be religious to follow those moral laws, however, most religions emphasize the moral laws that, when followed, benefit us temporally, but without a saving faith they are of no benefit eternally. Also, just being religious can give someone a support system that they wouldn’t otherwise have.

I think you misunderstood my question. I didn’t ask could you give me more opinions, I asked to expand the teaching. You know how do you get to going to Church without your heart being in it is of no eternal value, from the Bible?

The mustard seed parables come to my mind. Jesus seems to tell us faith as small as a mustard seed is “saving faith” as far as He is concerned.

Can’t imagine why anyone would waste their time participating in Church if they didn’t at least have the tiniest amount of faith. Yes I know some might that are doing it for selfish reasons, but we are talking about this in the context of the young girl who went still kept going to church for years thinking she didn’t have saving faith.

If you truly trust in Christ and Love him, then don’t you know it?

I agree with the statement that this would be a good definition of saving faith, but I don’t believe Jesus is that strict.

I didn’t say it had a mere temporal value. Following the commands of Christ when you have a saving faith produces great benefits, both for yourself and for others and both now and eternally.

I must have misunderstood. I thought you said…

Well, Southern Baptist don’t believe one is born anew in baptism. We believe one is born anew at conversion. Baptism is part of the conversion process but it is the last part that signifies that conversion has happened.

Why would Jesus command us to be Baptized to signify the conversion happened? I can’t even see a mere temporal value if this is the only reason we did it. What’s the value so everyone can cheer and applaud and have an emotional experience? I don’t mean to be rude here but if all it takes is for me to have the emotional conversion experience then what’s the point? and what is the great benefit me getting wet produces?

Following the commands of Christ apart from faith may keep us from having to deal with the temporal consequences of sin and produce some great relationships but they do not cleanse us from sin and put is in a right relationship with God.

Actually I don’t think confessing your sin with an unrepentant heart keeps you from having to deal with the temporal consequences of sin either?

 

[rcwitness]

So Mass attendance/participation is optional? Is Baptism optional? Confession? The Lord’s Supper?

Are these just religious practices to do and instruct or what a believer is compelled to do/instruct by our Lord?

 

[De_Maria]

Those things may ultimately draw us to having saving faith but “Being religious” without a saving faith does nothing for us eternally.

What is a saving faith? And how do you know that you have one?

 

[rcwitness]

I dont think that is a fair question. Saving faith is known by faith, right?

How would you answer the question?

1 John 3
[Now] this is how we shall know that we belong to the truth and reassure our hearts before him 20 in whatever our hearts condemn, for God is greater than our hearts and knows everything. Beloved, if [our] hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God and receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us. Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us.

John notes the commandment of Christ is to love one another. But he also says “keep His Commandments”

 

[De_Maria]

I dont think that is a fair question.

Why? He used the terminology. He ought to know what he means by it.

Saving faith is known by faith, right?

Then why use the term “saving faith” if all he means is “faith”?

How would you answer the question?

1 John 3
[Now] this is how we shall know that we belong to the truth and reassure our hearts before him 20 in whatever our hearts condemn, for God is greater than our hearts and knows everything. Beloved, if [our] hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God and receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us. Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us.

John notes the commandment of Christ is to love one another. But he also says “keep His Commandments”

Hm? Not following.

Are you saying that a saving faith keeps the Commandments?

 

[rcwitness]

Yes, i am. Or rather St John is.

Also note that He specifically says “remain” in Him. Its not just a certain duration of time, but prevailing through times. And this is also the language John used in the Bread of Life discourse by Jesus. Jesus said whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me.

Also, note that the word John uses for “keeping the commandments of Christ” is the same word St Peter used when he commanded the Samaritans to be Baptized.

 

[De_Maria]

Ok, good. Now let’s see how lanman87 answers the question.

 

[guanophore]

Following religion may have temporal value but without faith they do nothing for us eternally.

I think a person would have to exclude a great deal of scripture to support this
position.

Are these just religious practices to do and instruct or what a believer is compelled to do/instruct by our Lord?

By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome 1 Jn.5;3

Sacraments are given to us as a free gift, to perfect us in holiness.