Biblical Support for Sacraments being a vehicle of grace

[rcwitness]

I agree that belief is necessary for salvation. And if one believes, they will seek Baptism.

The Church recognizes that Baptism is not absolutely necessary without exception. There may be ignorance, maybe they were taught Baptism is only a ritual that is not necessary, maybe there was desire but through no fault of their own were not able to receive.

Mark 16
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

 

[tgGodsway]

Yes, I’ve had lengthy discussion about this verse on this site. This verse does not sum up, doctrinally, what the New Testament as a whole has said about this. When we compare this verse with like verses, baptism is excluded. But honestly, I do not interpret this verse in the same way.

"He who believes and is baptized, will be SAVED=delivered. It isn’t specific in the way salvation is meant. But non-the-less, the second half of the verse is a contrast. “he who does not believe will be condemned.”

The reverse logic about baptism was not included, indicating that the baptism itself was not treated as a condition for salvation. Otherwise it would read like this: “he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned.” In this case baptism is a direct condition for salvation.

I’m not sure how I got into this discussion in the first place.

 

[rcwitness]

The second half of Mark’s verse recognizes that belief will result in Baptism. Belief means wanting to obey the Commands of Jesus.

It is Evangelicals who have desperately tried to remove Baptism from conversion and grace. So its very common to meet Evangelicals who have believed for many years but struggle to understand what Baptism means.

 

[rcwitness]

Baptism is not magic. It does not trump disbelief. If a person of the age of reason, consciously denies Jesus, then if they were Baptized, their Baptism is rejected also.

 

[tgGodsway]

will result in Baptism. Belief means wanting to obey the Commands of Jesus.

Yes it results in baptism. agreed. But resulting in baptism is not the same thing as a condition for baptism. … I believe every born again believer should be water baptized. But I do not hold baptism as a condition that could potentially hinder new birth. perhaps we are saying the same thing on that.

Secondly, … On what biblical bases do you say "belief means wanting to obey and commands of Jesus.?

 

[tgGodsway]

Accepting the Apostolic faith would require a complete rearrangement of your theology, and probably a major lifestyle change as well

This is hilarious. There is nothing about your statements that represent the Apostolic circle of N.T. thought at all.

Sad.

 

[JonNC]

exactly!.. The SUM of thy word is truth! … If the New Testament was teaching that water baptism was a necessary condition to be met in order for one to be eternally saved, there would be a consistency of thought without hit and miss verses, some including baptism and others not.

First, it isn’t merely water baptism. It is Baptism by water and the word.
Next, one doesn’t look at the totality of scripture as some majority rule approach, as you imply here. For example, the Great Commission is only articulated once. Does that mean we should simply ignore it?

Christ means what He says in the Great Commission. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inb the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
He actually puts Baptism first, then teaching!
Placing the sacraments as somehow contrary or juxtaposed to the word places God against Himself.

 

[JonNC]

Secondly, … On what biblical bases do you say "belief means wanting to obey and commands of Jesus.?

Again, the Great Commission; 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you
And His words on the law: You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the great and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

[Wannano]

tgGodsway:

exactly!.. The SUM of thy word is truth! … If the New Testament was teaching that water baptism was a necessary condition to be met in order for one to be eternally saved, there would be a consistency of thought without hit and miss verses, some including baptism and others not.

First, it isn’t merely water baptism. It is Baptism by water and the word.
Next, one doesn’t look at the totality of scripture as some majority rule approach, as you imply here. For example, the Great Commission is only articulated once. Does that mean we should simply ignore it?

Christ means what He says in the Great Commission. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inb the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
He actually puts Baptism first, then teaching!
Placing the sacraments as somehow contrary or juxtaposed to the word places God against Himself.

How do you explain it using the King James Version? Or even the Catholic Douay Rheims? They both say “teach” first.

 

[JonNC]

How do you explain it using the King James Version?

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Teach. Convert. Make disciples.
How do you teach them? First, baptize them, then teach them.
That doesn’t mean it can only work in that order. Again, there is no contradiction here. The point is Baptism should never be considered somehow secondary, somehow a nice event, or worse, a work on our part.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

How do you explain it using the King James Version?

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Teach. Convert. Make disciples.
How do you teach them? First, baptize them, then teach them.
That doesn’t mean it can only work in that order. Again, there is no contradiction here. The point is Baptism should never be considered somehow secondary, somehow a nice event, or worse, a work on our part.

Ok, but it came across triumphantly that your version had Christ saying baptism comes first.

 

[JonNC]

Ok, but it came across triumphantly that your version had Christ saying baptism comes first.

Sorry. I didn’t mean it that way. I see no good reason to withhold baptism from infants and children, however.

 

[tgGodsway]

Next, one doesn’t look at the totality of scripture as some majority rule approach, as you imply here. For example, the Great Commission is only articulated once. Does that mean we should simply ignore it?

Well if that is the case, then one writer uses baptism plus the word as a means to conversion and another writer doesn’t. So ,… what’s the real answer?.. pick and choose which writer you like best? That is ridiculous. Secondly, we are not talking about a discrepancy of a sermon, we are talking about finding the truth concerning how or if water baptism is part of the new birth conversion. One verse uses an example of it while another verse leaves it out. You are not dealing with the problem here.

 

[tgGodsway]

Well maybe I’m being too technical here. Sorry friend. To believe is to accept and trust something to be true. The desire to obey and the follow through in actually obeying is a RESULT of one’s belief. I will obey because I have come to believe it. Obedience is the action motived by the understanding and belief. I think I am splitting hairs here. Please forgive me.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

Next, one doesn’t look at the totality of scripture as some majority rule approach, as you imply here. For example, the Great Commission is only articulated once. Does that mean we should simply ignore it?

Well if that is the case, then one writer uses baptism plus the word as a means to conversion and another writer doesn’t. So ,… what’s the real answer?.. pick and choose which writer you like best? That is ridiculous. Secondly, we are not talking about a discrepancy of a sermon, we are talking about finding the truth concerning how or if water baptism is part of the new birth conversion. One verse uses an example of it while another verse leaves it out. You are not dealing with the problem here.

You have mistakenly attributed the post above to me. It was not my statement,

 

[JonNC]

Well maybe I’m being too technical here. Sorry friend. To believe is to accept and trust something to be true. The desire to obey and the follow through in actually obeying is a RESULT of one’s belief. I will obey because I have come to believe it. Obedience is the action motived by the understanding and belief. I think I am splitting hairs here. Please forgive me.

I think you are splitting hairs. I don’t think you’re saying anything different here. It is the Spirit that moves us to do the good works He has prepared for us to do.

 

[JonNC]

Well if that is the case, then one writer uses baptism plus the word as a means to conversion and another writer doesn’t. So ,… what’s the real answer?.. pick and choose which writer you like best? That is ridiculous. Secondly, we are not talking about a discrepancy of a sermon, we are talking about finding the truth concerning how or if water baptism is part of the new birth conversion. One verse uses an example of it while another verse leaves it out. You are not dealing with the problem here.

Again, it isn’t about picking and choosing. It is about looking at the totality of scripture. No where does scripture contradict Peter when he says Baptism now saves you. If you have a writer that does, please let me know. If a verse doesn’t mention it, that is not a contradiction of it. We look at the totality.
So, there is no discrepancy.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

will result in Baptism. Belief means wanting to obey the Commands of Jesus.

Yes it results in baptism. agreed. But resulting in baptism is not the same thing as a condition for baptism. … I believe every born again believer should be water baptized. But I do not hold baptism as a condition that could potentially hinder new birth. perhaps we are saying the same thing on that.

Secondly, … On what biblical bases do you say "belief means wanting to obey and commands of Jesus.?

I believe our second birth includes water Baptism, (which as Jon said is not merely a water bath, but the Word) because God first cleanses us from the old man in order to make us a new creation.

Baptism is primarily a washing away of sins, but it also means a passage into a new life.

As for belief meaning we will want to keep His commandments:

1John 5 is an example
**Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. **

 

[rcwitness]

As I noted in the Faith+Sacraments thread, a major difference between most evangelical (non-Catholic/Orthodox) teachings and the Catholic teachings are the difference in belief of what the Sacraments are and their purpose.

When I first came here one of the first things that really threw me for a loop was the phrase that Sacraments are a vehicle of grace.

What are the Biblical passages that support that we actually receive grace from the Sacraments? In other words, if I were to be really snarky and say “Prove it from the Scriptures” how would you?

Would you be able to provide Evangelical teachings about what the Sacraments are for and what they do?

From what i understand about Evangelical theology, is that Baptism and Communion (two recognized Sacraments) are “tangible” signs of the Gospel. When practiced in faith, they nourish and give us strength.

This, i believe, is not different from a phrase “vehicle of grace”.

 

[rcwitness]

1 Peter 3
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Can you see how this would be describing Baptism as a “vehicle of grace”?