Biblical Truth

[StrawberryJam]

I think maybe that starting with “proving the Bible is inspired” is maybe taking ahold of the wrong end of the stick. It seems to me, that you begin by reading the works of the great Christian apologists. There are no better names to recommend, I believe, than Peter Kreeft (whom you have all ready discovered!), and C S Lewis.
Now, Lewis is interesting, because he started out as an atheist, and became a Christian. (It is true that he was Church of England, but his writings are aimed not at what various Christian groups find to differ over, but the essential heart of the matter, which is: Who is Jesus Christ? And what am I to make of Him?).
Once you have come that far, then you can go on to the matter of proofs for Scripture. The only initial thing that you need to remember, is that the stories of the life of Christ (and his disciples), are part of a well-respected and well-authenticated ancient text written by people who were there, and actually knew Jesus Christ.
It seems to me, that the question of inspiration comes in a little farther down the road…:twocents:

In the meantime: :extrahappy:Congratulations on your new adventure as you come to understand more & more about Our Lord!! What an:extrahappy: exciting thing to be doing, coming upon Him for the first time!!
God bless you, and know that many prayers are with you!!

Why dont people just simply read what Jesus said according to the christian bible first? Why? It is so simple to do!

 

[Philthy]

Why dont people just simply read what Jesus said according to the christian bible first? Why? It is so simple to do!

Oh I think they all do read what He said! The problem is not reading “what he said” but understanding what he meant by what he said. He said a lot of stuff that can be easily misunderstood:
This is my body
I am the bread of life
Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you
Unless one is born of water and spirit you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven
When you pray, pray like this:
If you had faith the size of a mustard seed you would move mountains

 

[jmtowle]

Dear Aryus,

Maybe there is merit in approaching Catholicism from another perspective which others have alluded to in their posts.

If you are able, hold in abeyance the Bible and reserve the right to critically examine it’s origin and the claims of infallibility after experiencing Catholic worship and teaching.

Start by using the Mass as a spiritual experiment if you will. While you wont be in full communion with most others in attendance and you are not eligible to participate in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, you will be able to observe and critique the overall believability of the worship you experience.

I am inclined to think that there is no rush on your part to become a member of the Catholic faith if it means accepting that which your reasoning rejects. So go to Mass as often as you are able and become a highly interested observer. Ask yourself how this form of worship has withstood so many centuries of new and divergent cultures. Think about the fact that people all over the world are praying the same prayers you are hearing at your personal Mass and how those words are raised up to God the Father, in unity, every day.

Once you become totally familiar with all the prayers being offered up by the congregation and the priest, ask yourself which of these prayers would likely be rejected by God, particularly if the Catholic Church is the same Church he placed in the hands of Peter and the other Apostles with the understanding that they would be in good Hands, the Hands of the Holy Spirit?

It will be the Mass that confirms your suspicions about Catholicism or causes you to look elsewhere. It is the epicenter of all spiritual strength and from the Word of God and more importantly the Eucharist, which is made available at every Mass, that you join with the Angels and Saints and all of Christ’s Mystical Body in praising His Father until we are all together.

When you hear the words " Through Him, with Him and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours Almighty Father, forever and ever, Amen" think about the relationship between the Father, His Son, the Holy Spirit and yourself if you choose to raise your voice to the Father in communion with the faithful who make such a profession.

Now go back to the Bible and you decide what you believe to be Truth. Did the Catholic Church hand down the Truth from God or is it just another man made collection of beliefs? The Bible can not validate itself as you are well aware, but the Catholic Church can if it is the One True Church.

Jump in, the waters are fine.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

 

[thechristian]

You must ask yourshelf a question… If scripture is not the infallable word of God then who’s word is it? Beacuse if it is not his then it is somebody elses’s. I Trust God to protect
his word and to be nobody’s but his. A relvelation thru faith is how we know it to be aboslutely true.

God loves you…God bless

 

[Tetiaroa]

If you are able, hold in abeyance the Bible and reserve the right to critically examine it’s origin and the claims of infallibility after experiencing Catholic worship and teaching.

Start by using the Mass as a spiritual experiment if you will. … observe and critique the overall believability of the worship you experience.

… and become a highly interested observer…

Once you become totally familiar with all the prayers being offered up by the congregation and the priest, ask yourself which of these prayers would likely be rejected by God…

Now go back to the Bible and you decide what you believe to be Truth. Did the Catholic Church hand down the Truth from God or is it just another man made collection of beliefs? The Bible can not validate itself as you are well aware, but the Catholic Church can if it is the One True Church.

JT

jmtowle
That was the most touching and inspiring post.

 

[jmtowle]

As posted by thechristian

“must ask yourshelf a question… If scripture is not the infallable word of God then who’s word is it? Beacuse if it is not his then it is somebody elses’s. I Trust God to protect
his word and to be nobody’s but his. A relvelation thru faith is how we know it to be aboslutely true.”

God loves you…God bless

Let’s start with the reality that the 27 books of the New Testament were written by men after the death and resurrection of our Lord. Not just any men but men who either lived with our Lord or were instructed by these same men, the Apostles and disciples. At the same time other men who may also have been Apostles or disciples and their students, wrote books similar to the 27 we know as the NT but with some information that wasn’t what God wanted revealed. They weren’t bad books they just weren’t inspired in the perfect manner the other’s were.

So how were the 27 chosen? You know that a physical book doesn’t have the ability to do anything other than exist, so the 27 books had to be selected from the entire selection of books that were made known or presented to the Christians of the first four centuries. And who does the historical evidence point to as having had the power and authority to make the selection of the 27 books? That’s important information! And if this group of Christian men did not then have the authority to assemble the NT then it is nothing more than a collection of 27 spiritual books and you have no basis for accepting their decision made 16 plus centuries ago.

Recorded history does not support the idea that the 27 books of the NT assembled themselves or simply appeared to the Christians of the 4th century. History shows that the Christian Church that was known as the Catholic Church, with the permission of the reigning Pope and the Council of Bishops, made the selection of the 27 and that selection remains intact 1,600 years later, albeit with various translations.

The 27 books have absolutely no authority without the human cooperation that took place in the final selection. Wishing this weren’t so in no way alters the evidence to the contrary.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

 

[Tetiaroa]

A relvelation thru faith is how we know it to be aboslutely true.

But Faith comes from listening to the Church (Romans 10:17)

It was from the revelation of Jesus revealed to us through the Church that we have Faith.

 

[jmtowle]

Dear Tetiaroa,

Thanks for the kind words. I like your thinking too. The next time we go to Mass we can pray for each other and our brothers and sisters in Christ, wherever they may be. The Holy Mass, what a wonderful gift from God!!!

Tell everyone in Micronesia I said hey and that I wish them well.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

 

[thechristian]

I’m sorry JW I can’t give any credit to man for the way the books were written or assembled to make up the bible. Now who I can give credit to is GOD. God is sole
author of the christian faith. The church played a role as the instrument of his will
in the creation of the bible…that credit is do.

God bless

david

 

[myneekers]

What is truth! What is truth for one person may not be for another, so truth is defined by the individual.

The bible is a set of books handed down by men, inspired by God. We do not know for a fact that what is in the bible is the full truth, we were not there when it was being written so there is no way for anyone to ever know if what is written is what God said should be written.

I struggle with the same issue but in a different way. I believe in God and know that he loves and watches over me. I believe in the Bible and that what is in it is someone’s truth somewhere. I may not agree with everything that is in it, but others may. We need to find our own truth in the bible!

I stay with the Catholic religion because it is the one religion that teaches most of what I believe. There are things that Catholicism teaches that are not in the bible. Are they wrong, not really. Do they in some way express a point from the bible that is something that everyone should take head to, most of the time.

Look in you heart for what you believe not to what someone else tells you or what you read. What others believe is not of relevance. Others do not answer for what you believe you will. What you choose to believe and not believe is going to form your life, not someone else’s.

Religion is like love, you can not see it but you can feel it . Stop looking so hard for answers and give God a chance to provide them for you. I say this being one of those people that goes looking for answers and always come back to what is in my heart, which is what is best for me, the sme as you have to decide what is real for you.

God Bless
In God We trust!

 

[Tetiaroa]

I’m sorry JW I can’t give any credit to man for the way the books were written or assembled to make up the bible.

I agree with you and I should say that’s fair enough. But the Apostles were men too! Jesus said to these men, “WHO EVER LISTENS TO YOU LISTENS TO ME AND WHO EVER REJECTS YOU REJECTS ME…”

Didn’t Jesus leave the credit to certain men? in Jesus times, his disciples? or in our case the magisterium?

 

[jmtowle]

originally posted by, thechristian

“I’m sorry JW I can’t give any credit to man for the way the books were written or assembled to make up the bible. Now who I can give credit to is GOD. God is sole
author of the christian faith. The church played a role as the instrument of his will
in the creation of the bible…that credit is do.”

God bless

david

One of the most reoccurring themes in the Bible is God working through His highest form of creation, man. It is a continuing collaborative effort. God made man in His image and likeness and like everything else He created it is good.

When man raises his thoughts to his God and desires to put on the Mind of God, he places himself in a position to receive thoughts whose origins are from the Creator. God certainly has the ability to enter man’s thoughts but man must cooperate by expressing a desire to receive those thoughts . This happens to many of us on a regular basis, it is likely happening as I write, to some degree. This isn’t anything out of the ordinary but has been God’s way of participating in His creation since the first such thought entered the mind of man.

We know from the Bible that some men ( I’m using the term men in the all of mankind sense ) are given greater gifts than other’s in this regard. While there were no shortage of men lifting their hearts and minds to God, some men were able to transfer their thoughts to the written word in such a way that God fully approved. But God didn’t speak in a loud voice from behind a cloud or hidden in a plume of smoke, he did the same thing to the men who were in charge of His Church that He did with the authors of the 27 books of the NT he entered their thoughts because they both asked Him to and because they were obeying His Son’s command to make the Kingdom of God present to all mankind.

God chose these people, they accepted the responsibility and through this collaborative effort we came to know God as He chose to reveal Himself. So yes, man does get credit for obedience and for effort. Try telling St. Paul that there is no need for effort, he held down two full time jobs and endured torture and imprisonment to accomplish what was eventually written down in the words of Sacred Scripture. He knew that it was God’s initial
action that caused Him to place all his faith and trust in His Son but he also knew that he could have rejected the initial offer and a portion of credit was due him provided it pointed back to the Cause of his actions of faith, hope and charity. Man gets and deserves a good deal of credit for using his free will to reject the enticements of this transitory world and focus his efforts on pleasing their God whom some men choose to ignore or even ridicule.

The Apostles, their successors and all men who consecrate their lives to God and seek above all things His Will, must be most pleasing because it is a reflection of His unconditional Love. What God freely gave to man, those such as these gave back just as freely and unconditionally. Love for love.

You are wrong about not crediting man for his participation in the creating and assembling of the Bible because while God could have done so Himself, He chose to include man for His own Glory and for the good of mankind.

In reality, you owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to the men who coauthored the Sacred Books with God and the men who saw to it that only the proper books were included as directed and instructed by the Holy Spirit.

This pattern of cooperation started at Pentecost and continues each time the successors to the Apostles convene to hear what God has to say and then profess that Truth to the world. And as always, all men are free to accept or reject the teaching authority of His Church.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

 

[myneekers]

I tread lightly while saying this. Part of my struggles are things that happen within religion that should not and that I know Christ would not agree with. Another part is the research I have done. There are those that say the Bible is word for word and those that say it is not. You know what Christ expects from you.

There has been so many things that have been changed in religion over the years that you have to ask yourself is it this way that god intended, or was it the old way! This is why I say you have to find what you believe.

Father Staples once told me that you do not forget Peter because of Judas
and I keep that in the back of my mind at all time, but I am not getting my teachings from Peter.

We are thought that we are responsible for our actions as christens and I believe that we are also responsible for what we believe, so while I have no doubt about God, his love and that he wishes me to be the best person I can be, I do have my questions about religion today. Don’t get me wrong, I will always be a Catholic, but I will always believe that if I listen, god will tell me what he wants me to believe by a feeling in my soul when I read my bible.

Have you ever gone to mass and sat there in the pew and thought, wow, he wrote that one for me! There is a reason why that message strikes you so hard. Listen to it!

Don’t worry about whether or not the Bible is word for word, Use it as your guide line for how to live your life. A friend of mine gave me a book to read called What would jesus do? It was a really good book. I find myself asking that question. Would he worry about weather or not the Bible is word for word or would he he say Love they neighbors as you love they self. He will guide you in the right direction if you let him.

In God We Trust!

 

[Zooey]

Why dont people just simply read what Jesus said according to the christian bible first? Why? It is so simple to do!

And I fully intend that OP should read the Bible.
The question was, “How can * know that it is inspired”? And I said–and I say again: Read the Scriptures the way you would read any other document of ancient history. Read what the great Christian apologists have written about Jesus Christ.
And then, once those things are done, look at Christ again.

Sometimes, we try to get people to run before they can even stand upright, much less walk.*

 

[Tetiaroa]

What is truth! What is truth for one person may not be for another, so truth is defined by the individual.

But there is only ONE Truth! How can several individuals have different Truths? If Truth is defined according to an individual’s own definition then perhaps that’s why we have over 30,000 different denominations.

 

[Tetiaroa]

Dear Tetiaroa,

Thanks for the kind words. I like your thinking too. The next time we go to Mass we can pray for each other and our brothers and sisters in Christ, wherever they may be. The Holy Mass, what a wonderful gift from God!!!

Tell everyone in Micronesia I said hey and that I wish them well.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

Thank you JT.

Warm regards all the way from Micronesia.

 

[thechristian]

In reality, you owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to the men who coauthored the Sacred Books with God and the men who saw to it that only the proper books were included as directed and instructed by the Holy Spirit.

This pattern of cooperation started at Pentecost and continues each time the successors to the Apostles convene to hear what God has to say and then profess that Truth to the world. And as always, all men are free to accept or reject the teaching authority of His Church.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

Again I am sorry JT…I do not. There is no coauthor to scripture. Who I do a tremendos
debt and gartitude is GOD for the simple reason is that he loves me… and that he loves me so much that he gave his only begotten as a scrafice that I may live (John 3:16). HE AND HE ONLY IS WHO WE OWE OR GRATITUDE TO.

God loves you…God bless

 

[jmtowle]

Originally posted by, myneekers

"What is truth! What is truth for one person may not be for another, so truth is defined by the individual. "

Whatever it takes, you must run as fast as your feet will carry you away from this thinking. Truth is absolute and is not subject to private interpretation. People who trust that truth is subjective and is dependent on each individual’s conscience are anti religion, anti God and place man’s ability to reason above God. You have bought into modern secular thinking that has it’s roots in atheism. Absolute, objective Truth comes from the God of creation and has been revealed through His Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church holds in it’s deposit of faith the absolute Truth as God has revealed it to man through man, regarding faith and morals.

Your accepting or rejecting this Truth in no way alters it’s reality, just as your accepting or rejecting Purgatory or Hell in no way alters those realities. If you can accept that the Catholic Church is the Church our Lord passed on to St. Peter and the other ten faithful Apostles then you must recognize the authority it possesses and trust with your obedience that this Church is not capable of error in matters of faith and morals.

What is critical is that you understand what constitutes faith and morals and not confuse those matters with liturgical changes or other such changes that are not central to your salvation.

First discover what the unchanged Truth is regarding faith and moral behavior and then your eyes will be opened to the reality that matters such as the intrinsic evil of abortion,
the sinfulness of sex outside of marriage, the sinfulness of the act of procreation without the possibility of creating life are all unchangeable truths and are protected from error by the Holy See. Those are a few examples of morals and a few examples of faith would be the Virgin Birth of our Lord, Our Blessed Mother being the only fully human being created without Original sin, the Ascension of our Lord and the Assumption of our Blessed Mother. As a Catholic you are bound to accept these matters of faith and morals as absolute Truth, no exceptions. If you pick and choose the truths you “feel” are correct then you are in essence, choosing Protestantism.

The problem with using emotions and feelings to determine truth is that they can be manipulated with chemical substances. Your self discovered truth may vary according to the drugs you take or were given without your being aware.

I will suggest that you pick up CS Lewis’ book " Mere Christianity ", it should be both enlightening and profitable spiritually. Take the time and make the effort to learn your Catholic faith as it was handed down through Apostolic succession.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

 

[jmtowle]

Originally posted by, the christian

“Again I am sorry JT…I do not. There is no coauthor to scripture. Who I do a tremendos
debt and gartitude is GOD for the simple reason is that he loves me… and that he loves me so much that he gave his only begotten as a scrafice that I may live (John 3:16). HE AND HE ONLY IS WHO WE OWE OR GRATITUDE TO.”

In essence what you are saying is that the men who physically wrote the words contained in the books of the New Testament were mindless puppets. God took control of their arms and hands and while in some sort of trance the words magically appeared on paper or parchment or vellum, entirely separate from human experience and thought.

And then the 27 books assembled themselves, marched into the presence of the Christian Church of the fourth century and walah, the Bible enters into the human experience. More than 300 years after the Resurrection and Ascension of our Lord, the Christian Church with it’s Apostolic succession and all of the various sacramental traditions are no longer necessary because God finally took the time to send the Bible down from heaven. I guess it was just tough luck that the people who lived between 33 AD and the late 300’s were a tad too early for the word of God. Without the Bible, what were these people believing in?

To deny that God works in cooperation with humanity is to deny the Bible itself because there are too many examples to ignore or explain away.

You need not say you are sorry to me, I’m not offended by your thinking but you might consider the possibility that God takes pleasure in working with His Created beings and your rejecting that reality could be offensive to Him.

Maybe we can discuss this further in our Purgatory stay; I’ll be one of those souls with the I knew this was coming look and I’ll be on the lookout for a soul with a look of shock on his spiritual face.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

 

[Stevedapig]

The Bible is the WORD of God but “work” of man…“Truth” is always in the “word” of God…“Fallacy” can always be found in the “work” of man…Old testament is basically the History & Myths recorded by the Jewish people before the birth of Christ; and the new testament (the four gospels) is based on serveral versions of Christ’s life remembered and written by Christ’s followers decades after the passing of Jesus some twenty centuries ago…For a 21st centruy person like myself, bible is a good source to get spiritual guidience & inspiration, but it is still a “book” by the work of human…As one of the Chinese Sayings said “Rather have no book then believe 100% in a book…” I think God would allow and welcome our challenges to the infallibility of the “Bible”, especially when we understant what, who, why, when and how the Bible was compiled & written during the first century…