Biblical Truth

[thechristian]

I believe if you the would ask the apostles if they wanted credit for how the bible and the christian faith came together…they would not want any credit at all, as a matter of fact I know they would not want any…Scripture teaches that. God takes pleasure in working with His Created beings…YES I have no doubt of that, becuase he does it. I give the lord all the credit, I don’t believe he would take offense to that all.

God bless

Originally posted by, the christian

“Again I am sorry JT…I do not. There is no coauthor to scripture. Who I do a tremendos
debt and gartitude is GOD for the simple reason is that he loves me… and that he loves me so much that he gave his only begotten as a scrafice that I may live (John 3:16). HE AND HE ONLY IS WHO WE OWE OR GRATITUDE TO.”

In essence what you are saying is that the men who physically wrote the words contained in the books of the New Testament were mindless puppets. God took control of their arms and hands and while in some sort of trance the words magically appeared on paper or parchment or vellum, entirely separate from human experience and thought.

And then the 27 books assembled themselves, marched into the presence of the Christian Church of the fourth century and walah, the Bible enters into the human experience. More than 300 years after the Resurrection and Ascension of our Lord, the Christian Church with it’s Apostolic succession and all of the various sacramental traditions are no longer necessary because God finally took the time to send the Bible down from heaven. I guess it was just tough luck that the people who lived between 33 AD and the late 300’s were a tad too early for the word of God. Without the Bible, what were these people believing in?

To deny that God works in cooperation with humanity is to deny the Bible itself because there are too many examples to ignore or explain away.

You need not say you are sorry to me, I’m not offended by your thinking but you might consider the possibility that God takes pleasure in working with His Created beings and your rejecting that reality could be offensive to Him.

Maybe we can discuss this further in our Purgatory stay; I’ll be one of those souls with the I knew this was coming look and I’ll be on the lookout for a soul with a look of shock on his spiritual face.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

 

[davidv]

I believe if you the would ask the apostles if they wanted credit for how the bible and the christian faith came together…they would not want any credit at all, as a matter of fact I know they would not want any…Scripture teaches that. God takes pleasure in working with His Created beings…YES I have no doubt of that, becuase he does it. I give the lord all the credit, I don’t believe he would take offense to that all.

God bless

Why do you think it is about “credit”?

It about gratitude, gratitude for someone else’s submission of their will to the Will of God. I am not a robot. If I do some good, its source is in God. However, unless I choose to do it, no good would be done.

 

[Norminha]

Aryus

how do we know that the Bible is the revealed and infallible word of God?

We say the Holy Bible is the infallible Word of God, primarily because the Man who makes these claims is God and being God He meant what He said.
But we can’t claim this unless we conclude that the Church He founded is infallible. It is the Church that made it possible the Bible to be inspired. St. Augustine said **“I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.” **

Muslims and Hindus, for example, say the same of their own religions with just as much faith and fervor. They all claim that their religions are divinely inspired, and that the words in their religious texts are the inspired words of God, directly passed on without change or blemish to this day.

Based on my above claim, what grounds do they have? Do they have an interpretative authority? or it is their own?
We know Christianity begins with Christ. The Catholic Church is the only authority for 2,000 years and She’ll continue until the second coming of Jesus, her Founder. The Church is divinely protected from teaching error.

the Bible is true because it has not been disproven.

The Holy Bible is true because the One who revealed it is TRUE Himself.

prophecies appearing in one part of the Bible have been fulfilled in other parts of the Bible and that historical and geographic descriptions in the Bible have been proven by archaeology, history, and anthropology.

Catholics don’t take the Holy Bible as the only source to prove the teaching of God. We rely on the **Church **Christ founded, to guide us in truth, as any good mother does and the Magisterium to continue teaching us the truth He has entrusted to His visible head of His Church, the successor of Peter.

 

[thechristian]

Christ is the author and finisher, the beginning and the end of the christian faith, we can only thank him for even allowing us to serve him! for if they were not called there would be no way for them to respond to his calling. Even a response to the calling of God is act only allowed by the gift of grace and the will of God. I give them honor becuase they were choosen by God to do his bidding, I can only Hope I can do the same for him.

God bless

 

[Norminha]

thechristian

Christ is the author and finisher, the beginning and the end of the christian faith, we can only thank him for even allowing us to serve him! for if they were not called there would be no way for them to respond to his calling. Even a response to the calling of God is act only allowed by the gift of grace and the will of God. I give them honor becuase they were choosen by God to do his bidding, I can only Hope I can do the same for him.

You are correct. That is the reason He chose to be crucified, to teach us to do the same, to die to ourselves and by imitating Him, we can be His instruments to bring good to the rest of our brothers and sisters, through love.
Only in Christ, with Christ and through Christ we can accomplish anything; without Him, we are nothing.

 

[QuickCat]

Before I ask my question, it is perhaps necessary that I give some of my background so that you understand where I am coming from and my experience with this question. I was raised in a semi-Baptist household, though I attended many Prostestant churches. I grew increasingly frustrated with the lack of sincerity and direct experience in most of the churches I attended in my youth, and because I was never introduced to Catholicism I assumed that all Christianity was this way. I became a spiritual seeker outside of Christianity, looking at first to philosophy then to Buddhism, Hinduism, and Paganism. As my study and practice progressed I eventually detached myself from these systems. All of this searching lasted through middle school and high school and into college (where I am currently majoring in religious studies), and my quest began to look hopeless for me. I was very confused and pessimistic for a time, until after attending a Catholic funeral for a relative I became interested in Catholicism and began looking into Catholic beliefs, history, and practice. For the first time I felt that I had found true religion. The major thing that has been keeping me from joining the Church is one of the same questions, though, that kept me from falling in with Protestantism: how do we know that the Bible is the revealed and infallible word of God? It is an important question because it is, after all, the backbone of all true Christianity. I would not be able to undergo Initiation with full honesty without first examining this question. Catholic apologist Peter Kreeft, who I admire very much, has said that what makes Christianity unique is that it is a path from God, rather than a path to God; it is a result of divine revelation. However, Muslims and Hindus, for example, say the same of their own religions with just as much faith and fervor. They all claim that their religions are divinely inspired, and that the words in their religious texts are the inspired words of God, directly passed on without change or blemish to this day. I want to know how we know the Bible is the real deal.

One common answer I have encountered is that the Bible is true because it has not been disproven. However, a claim is not made true by the fact that it has not been disproven. Nobody has disproven that Buddha was visited by the evil spirit Mara while meditating under the Bodhi tree, nor that Krishna was mentored by the Hindu god Arjuna, nor that souls are reincarnated, nor that a comet is the herald of an alien spaceship. Yet these are all religious truth statements that various people have held and that are claimed to be divinely inspired. Just because something has not been disproven does not prove that it is true. [Truncated]​

The answer you are seeking is found in two words - THE JEW! Look at the history of Israel as found in the Word of God. From Genesis `12 to Acts 28 we have the history of THE JEW! Now that Israel is blinded [Romans 11:25] in part we see God once again dealing with the Gentiles. BTW, “religion” is Satan’s major weapon in fighting Biblical Christianity. I would urge you to read/study Ephesians and Colossians.

Grace and Peace,

Don J.

 

[irenaeus1]

There is no coauthor to scripture.

Certainly we can agree that God is the principle author, but how can you say that Paul did not author (yes, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but nonetheless used his thoughts, words, style, etc.) his letter to the Romans or to the Church in Corinth?

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[Tetiaroa]

Christ is the author and finisher, the beginning and the end of the christian faith, we can only thank him for even allowing us to serve him! for if they were not called there would be no way for them to respond to his calling. Even a response to the calling of God is act only allowed by the gift of grace and the will of God. I give them honor becuase they were choosen by God to do his bidding, I can only Hope I can do the same for him.

But who revealed this to you? Who revealed to you that God is the author and that God or Jesus is to be credited? You must received it from somewhere! And that somewhere is the Church established by Christ. That’s our means of getting to know the Truth, his Church.

Without the Church, would you be praising God today? Of course, we should thank and praise God for setting the path to him through the Church.

 

[paul_c]

I read through this entire thread and I think we need to get back to basics to understand that the bible is inspired. It really comes in three pieces :

1. Jesus is the son of God
2. He founded the Catholic Church to teach the truth about salvation and placed it under the protection of the holy spirit
3. The Catholic church wrote the Bible as a tool to pass on the truth as was its charter

So first you need to believe that Jesus is the son of God. So how was this done iniitally? Well, He told the people that he was the son of God and backed it up with numerous miracles, the final one being rising from the dead. Some people believed Jesus because they witnessed this. Others believed in Jesus because they felt the witnesses themselves were credible, in part because these witnesses also produced miracles and because they were willing to follow their convictions to the death. Some were convinced because the the witnesses were able to point to the suffering servant in scripture and show how the prophesies were fulfilled. They also may have been convinced because the Gospel of love that Jesus preached was appealing to them. The same reasons that people believed then apply to the current day. We must decide for ourselve (with the help of grace), whether Jesus as the son of God is credible based on what we have heard.

Once you come to believe that Jesus is Lord, the next step is to understand that he founded the Catholic Church to pass on the truths of salvation. This is best understood by following the doctrines of the church back through the early church fathers to the bible.

Once you believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus to spread the truth, then it is an easy step to believe the church put down the inspired word of God into the bible.

 

[myneekers]

Wheres I agree with you to some extent, I have to beg to differ with you in others. Christ is God in the flesh. As Catholics we call it the Holy Trinity, The father, son and holy spirt are 3 devine in on.

Sa for the church putting the bible together I do believe and some one please correct me if I am wrong but it was Constantine that request that the cannon be closed and that is when the sribes and scollers sat down and put what we now call the bible togetther.

Was the bible written by the appostals, no. the first copy of any part of the new testement is dated fron about 75 AD I do believe.

As fare as we knoe Matther, Mark and Luke were not petafiles and Peter would not have hid it if they were and I am sure that Christ would never have hid it either.

All to often people go to church because that his how they were raised or because they think that if they pray to the saints they will get whay they want. I on many ocasions have had the displeasure of seeing someone us God as an excuse to justify there actions. On many ocasions I have even heard someone say they are not that much of a hipocrte about somethign and less then 60 days later prove they are just that. The church today is not the church that Peter started. Peter walked in sandles and relied on god to provied for him. How many millions has the church dished out for the law suits they have had to deal with. Taking this all into consideration I would say we insult the early christians by comparing them to today.

Christ said I desire mercy not sacrifies but the church teaches that you must give up every Sunday as your sacrifise to Christ.

Use the bible as a guide line to live your life and if you do you will be as God intended us to be.

 

[Tetiaroa]

As Catholics we call it the Holy Trinity, The father, son and holy spirt are 3 devine in on.

:nope:
I think my catechism says 3 person in 1 divine being. Not 3 divine because if it is, then, you are talking about plurality of Gods (divine beings).

God is “A” divine being. But the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons sharing this ONE divine being.

Hope that’s clear.

 

[cassini]

.
The Bible and science.

On the other hand, the scientist who accepts the teaching of Christ need not fall back on a single arbitrary postulate. If he/she is a philosopher, one starts from the premises dictated by reason. In the world around us we recognises the natural revelation of a Creator, and by logical deductions concluded from the contingency of things created to the Being Uncreated. The same reasoning gives us an understanding of the spirituality and immortality of the soul. From both results combined we concluded further to moral obligations and the existence of the natural law. Thus prepared one can start into any scientific research without the necessity of erecting boundary stakes for the purpose of justifying any prejudices. If one wants to go further and put our faith upon a scientific basis, we may take the books called the Sacred Scriptures as a starting point, apply methodical criticism to their authenticity, and find them just as reliable as any other historical record. Their contents, prophecies, and miracles convince us of the Divinity of Christ, and from the testimony of Jesus Christ we accepts the entire supernatural revelation. We have constructed the science of our faith without any other than scientific premises. Thus the science of the Christian is the only one that gives freedom of research and progress; its boundaries are none but the pale of truth.

 

[paul_c]

Wheres I agree with you to some extent, I have to beg to differ with you in others. Christ is God in the flesh. As Catholics we call it the Holy Trinity, The father, son and holy spirt are 3 devine in on. [/quotte]
The Church teaches that there are 3 persons in one God.
myneekers;5504964:

Sa for the church putting the bible together I do believe and some one please correct me if I am wrong but it was Constantine that request that the cannon be closed and that is when the sribes and scollers sat down and put what we now call the bible togetther.

This is completely false. Constantine had nothing to do with the Canon. He was dead 50 years prior to it being developed. This is from the Catholic encyclopedia:
newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

Was the bible written by the appostals, no. the first copy of any part of the new testement is dated fron about 75 AD I do believe. {/quote]
This is also incorrect. The Church has Maintained that Matthew and john were written by the apostles of those names and that Luke and Mark were associates of Paul and Peter. Most authorities date the letters of Paul from the early 50s. There is a lot of debate on the dating of the Synoptic Gospels, but most feel the first of these is no later than the early 60s.
myneekers;5504964:

As fare as we knoe Matther, Mark and Luke were not petafiles and Peter would not have hid it if they were and I am sure that Christ would never have hid it either.

Where does this come from? Why would you say this?

All to often people go to church because that his how they were raised or because they think that if they pray to the saints they will get whay they want. I on many ocasions have had the displeasure of seeing someone us God as an excuse to justify there actions. On many ocasions I have even heard someone say they are not that much of a hipocrte about somethign and less then 60 days later prove they are just that. The church today is not the church that Peter started. Peter walked in sandles and relied on god to provied for him. How many millions has the church dished out for the law suits they have had to deal with. Taking this all into consideration I would say we insult the early christians by comparing them to today.

Christ said I desire mercy not sacrifies but the church teaches that you must give up every Sunday as your sacrifise to Christ.

Use the bible as a guide line to live your life and if you do you will be as God intended us to be.

although you identify yourself as a Catholic, this last statement is a very Protestant thing to say. And mass isn’t a sacrifice TO Christ, it is reliving the sacriment of Christ in the eucharist. Those that are in the State of grace, may recieve the eucharist as often as twice per day, recieving the graces that abound from it. This is a priviledge, not a sacrifice.
I would not assume that people go to mass because that is what they were taught. People who continue to go to mass, do it because they want to. Many are compelled to go to mass daily, purely for the love of God. Don’t dismiss that fact.

You seem to be drifting away from the church, yet for some reason you have been compelled to come here, so there still is hope. God works in mysterious ways. Follow the Spirit and see where He takes you. But be sure of this (its in your Bible). God put the truth into the hands of the Catholic Church 2000 years ago and said it would not withstand the gates of Hell. It will, therefore, continue to teach the truth about salvation until the end of time, even if some of its priests falter along the way through personal sin.

 

[Norminha]

myneekers

All to often people go to church because that his how they were raised or because they think that if they pray to the saints they will get whay they want.

True, unfortunately sometimes it is the case. However, those of us, who see this lukewarmness of faith, should teach by example the meaning of being a true Catholic. Referring to Sunday’s Mass, we don’t go to get something out of it; we go because we bring ourselves to unite our sacrifice to the Holy Sacrifice (in unbloody manner) of our High Priest and Victim and offer it to the Father, as a continuation of the **true sacrifice of the Last Supper. **We praise God and venerate all the saints our Holy Mother Church has declared, to guide and encourage us, while are still part of the militant Church so that some day we may enjoy their company in heaven and adore God for ever. Even our Suffering Church (Purgatory) is united in praying for each other.

I on many ocasions have had the displeasure of seeing someone us God as an excuse to justify there actions.

Yes, another misfortune. Every day we see big news, highlighting acts of terrorism in the name of God. Others, murdering abortionist to justify abortion. The list goes on and on but, this shouldn’t discourage us; on the contrary, we should see these moments as the opportunity to work towards the union of all the children of God and to increase in our own holiness. The last Chapter of the Holy Bible tells us that we win because He already won the victory for us.

On many ocasions I have even heard someone say they are not that much of a hipocrte about somethign and less then 60 days later prove they are just that. The church today is not the church that Peter started. Peter walked in sandles and relied on god to provied for him.

Correct again! Christ chose to give the authority over His Church and the Keys of the Kingdom to a big sinner, Peter. He denied his Master three times. When he did it, was he acting as a hypocrite? I don’t think it was the case but because **“the spirit is ready and the flesh is weak” ** (Matt 14, 38) In spite of his denial, three times he declared his human love for his Master. The rest of the Apostles, big sinners, yet it was precisely these simple sinful men had the honor to be chosen by their Master to govern His Church. Jesus knew His Church will be involved in big scandals and all sort of problems but He promised the gates of hell will not prevail because He remains with us until He returns. The Church Christ started on Peter and His Apostles is the same and will be the same until He returns, with ups and downs; the only difference between today and the days of the Apostles is logistics. The Church continues according to the era She lives. We must increase our daily prayers along with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass daily, if possible for our priest and all the members of the Body of Christ.(watch EWTN often) This is our duty as members of the Body of Christ.

How many millions has the church dished out for the law suits they have had to deal with.

The Body of Christ is attached to Her Head, Jesus Christ, therefore we shouldn’t be afraid. However, it is our responsibility to pray and do penance to safeguard the Church of Christ. It is not an easy task but with God’s grace it is not impossible. The problems will stay in the Church (made up of sinners) until Her Bridegroom returns. In this year that the Holy Father has declared the “Year of the Priests,” we have the great opportunity, more than ever, to pray day and night for them. We need our priests as much as they need all of us; we are united in a spiritual marriage.

Use the bible as a guide line to live your life and if you do you will be as God intended us to be.

The Holy Bible, the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Magisterium are indispensable in our daily life as our guide to live as it was intended by our Blessed Lord. First of all, obedience to Holy Mother Church, She’s not an oppressor but a loving mother that wishes every single soul to get to heaven. It is up to us.
May the peace of Jesus Christ descend and remain with you!

 

[PJM]

A reply to the OOP QUESTION on "Bible Truth"

***Dear friend in Christ,

I’m going to share a somewhat different perspective in hopes that it might aid you in you’re quest for truth.

So let’s start with the issue of TRUTH.***

***His holiness Pope John Paul II wrote an Encyclical Letter called “Fedes et Ratio” dealing with the topic of Truth. Not too many years ago, this letter would have been necessary. But today, one can no longer take fro granted that everyone would agree that on any [and every] single issue, at base their can only be a single truth.

We live in a time where a great many believe and teach that everything is relative to “self” and the only appropriate judgement is that which ones makes for one self, independent of Moral Laws, Natural Laws, and Civil laws. And certainly free from all religious laws, thought and practice.

John Paul speaks of commonsense, logic, and absolutes, all of which seem to have fallen out of favor and common use today.***

***His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, in his very first homily as our Pope made the following statement. “There cannot be you’re truth and my truth or there would “no truth.”

Without acceptance of a single truth one cannot possible hope to uncover THEE TRUTHS contained in the Bible, and from that base understand that is could only be from the mind, heart and will of a loving God.

Perhaps the “best” way to think of the bible in our contemporary times is from a “business perspective.” If one looks at the bible as though it were a new business’s “Mission Statement,” [which in fact it was and is] one can gleam the necessity, wisdom and appreciation in hindsight, of the fact that that is was understood to be such, and applied with vigor and rigorous control to conform to thee truths that it introduces.***

2nd. Tim. 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2nd. Cor. 9: 13 “Under the test of this service, you will glorify God by your obedience in acknowledging the gospel of Christ,”

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

2 Cor. 13: “8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.”

2 Tim. 4: “3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

John 16: “12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. “

***It has never been uncommon that a founder of a new business would, in a manner of speaking give they’re live to establish firmly the new endeavor. But Christ gave His life not simply to establish His New Religion, His Church, but also to guarantee it’s singular truths and to proclaim the infallibility of these truths on all matters of Faith and Morals.

Could thee Church have been established without the bible? Perhaps! But would it have survived the test of time, lasted 2,000 years, and become the largest Christian Church in the world? No, not very likely. That fact of itself speaks highly for the hand of God being directly involved.***

***God starting with Adam in the garden asked, “where are you?” Each of these people had to answer God, and God sought a common response. “Here I am Lord, I have come to do you’re Will.” The bible was inspired by God to permit us to do likewise. The Bible is about God seeking a relationship with His Created. It is a “Mission Statement” and more it is directions on how to get to heaven. It is a “How To” manual, that is essential to not simply knowing that God exist, but even more why it is that we exist!

The Bible has to be “from God” [inspired not dictated.] as humanities Salvation is the only logical reason for it’s existence. In overview and in specific detail, one can only find wisdom, love and truth. It can’t be coincidental, just luck, or happenstance. It is too complex, it’s message too complete, too full of love and too full of THEE TRUTHS to be anything but God’s handiwork.

Love and prayers,***
Pat

 

[Elizabethteresa]

John 3:16 ‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whomsoever believeth in HIm should not perish but have everlasting love.’

John 14:16 ’ I am the way, the truth and the light. NO man cometh to the father but by me.

2 Tim 3:16;17 ’ All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Seek HIm while you may still be able to find Him ,…When we realize that the blood of Christ is the only reason we are righteous, we realize how much God loved us to show us the way of salvation. The theme is clear repent for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Know that ye cannot stand before the son of God and claim that you lived your life as best as you can… no man is righeous…no not one…We are only righteous through the blood that was shed for each one of us. Get that and you get how desperately you need a savior. Grace is getting something I do not deserve. WHo am I that Christ would die for me?..I am a sinner…Christ saves us…Faith is believing something I do not see. Christ is a real person and HE sent the holy spirit to live in me. Is my duty to Christ to be Catholic and find true religion…no…my duty is the share the good news with others…Christ has set me free…He has washed me clean…I am on a journey to be holy because Christ did that all for me…and you…That is love…Christ Jesus loves you that much…

 

[Tetiaroa]

2 Tim 3:16;17 ’ All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

I’ll take your attention to these words “All scripture”. What is scripture?

Does the Bible mean any sacred scripture or does it mean any form of scripture?

It didn’t even say “Only Scripture” but it says “ALL scripture”. So what is scripture then and what is not? The four gospels are scripture but what about the gospel of Thomas, the gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Mary, the gospel of James, even the Book of Mormon, the Quran, the Book of Abraham, the book of Jasher, Bel and the Dragon, the Hermas Shepherd, the Canticles, the book of Psalms and the book of songs, Wisdom and the book of Proverbs etc? These are ALL SCRIPTURES and why not accept them as INSPIRED as 2 Tim 3:16 states “ALL SCRIPTURES are inspired by God”.

Non-Catholics may try in every way to refute this argument by saying that what’s in the Bible in only scripture but I don’t see any sense in it. It’s just doesn’t make sense at all.

Yesterday, a man discovered a piece of paper with ancient writings on it which translates “…a man of God is created in the image of God. As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be…” should this be also called scripture ?

 

[anon5216]

Okay! I think you will want to show what is your definition of INSPIRATION so we may be on the same frequency.
…
I always doubt why would someone waste his or her life on something which is not true!
…

The primary definition of inspiration is listed as “the process of being mentally stimulated to do or feel something, esp. to do something creative”.
I see scriptures of all the worlds religions falling under that description.
The writings themselves being the human response to that stimulation, and not different in process than more secular creative output.
This output is not documentary transcription of actual words spoken or dictated by the source of the inspiration - whatever that may be.

Regarding your second statement, people spend their time on things they believe to be true - whether it is actually true in reality is something entirely independent of belief.

 

[anon5216]

anon5216;5492206:

My intention in the previous post was to assert that the entirely fallible human CC leadership’s claims of infallibility (via the Holy Spirit) and related claims of inerrancy of defined scriptural writings are a human overlay that is itself not

Truth.
Is your assertion an infallible one?
I don’t claim infallibility for myself anymore than I accept those claims by any other human past or present - regardless of their title.

As I said before, to carefully collect together and preserve a set of texts and assert: “here are the writings of the people with some kind of first hand, or at least 2nd hand, experience of Jesus” is one thing.
To make brash claims of infallibility of what is clearly fallible human leadership and divine authorship of what are clearly imperfect human writings is entirely another.

Which is why the argument starts with the apostolic writings as historical witness accounts, not that the writings are the infallible Word of God.
It is also why you can’t conclude with the apostolic writings being anything more than human reflection on extraordinary experiences. Divine authorship simply is not a tenable claim.

Being a witness does not guarantee understanding of what one has witnessed.
Willingness to die for one’s beliefs does not guarantee one’s beliefs are 100% correct.

It certainly helps. Certainly, there are those who have died for a lie. Just think of the Branch Davidians, or Jim Jones and his followers, or Heaven’s Gates, or any number of groups who genuinely believed that they held the objective truth. However, what makes Christianity different is that the apostles and other early martyrs would have been in the best position to know whether what they professed was false. People may die for a lie that they believed wholeheartedly to be true, but people are not willing to die for what they know to be false. So had the resurrection been falsified (e.g., the swoon theory, the disciples stole the body but claimed he had risen, and any other number of falsification theories), what explains the sudden change in the apostles and disciples? What changed them from hiding out behind locked doors fearing for their lives to boldly proclaiming that He is alive. It does not make sense that they were willing to die for him had they known that they themselves were merely perpetrating a falsehood?
I’m not asserting the resurrection was falsified - simply that the first and second hand witnesses were not qualified to infallibly interpret their experiences - and neither are any titled successors.

 

[anon5216]

Spiritually transformed into what? Just curious.

What do you mean by “into what?”?

I just mean spiritually transformed and leave it up to God as to what that might mean in any specific instance.