Big Bang Myth

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If an individual has not studied the points, then one has to say that I believe, not I know.
This statement is, perhaps, the most anti-intellectual, regressive piece of nonsense ever to spew from the fevered imagination of a human being.

A single person does not – repeat: does not – have to have personally inspected every point and every given piece of evidence of a given subject in order to say that he knows something.

The whole reason that we have bodies of experts and fields of study is so that one person does not have to personally inspect every last piece of evidence. Findings and evidence are evaluated by thousands of independent researchers who peer-review each other’s work. Its the peer-review process that makes it safe to trust the discoveries of these bodies of experts.

If you honestly think that trusting the findings of a body of peer-reviewed experts is even remotely the same thing as “believing” a bunch of stories out of ancient book, then you’re not playing with a full deck of cards.

With that attitude, you might as well through out all the books, all human knowledge, and start over from scratch every generation. Of course, the fact that we have made incredible technological progress over the years – witness the computer you’re reading this post on – testifies to the fact that there’s something to this peer-reviewed, evidence-based inquiry stuff.
 
You are correct for simple knowledge—that the planets go around the Sun. When does water boil? Really, really, really simple.

Our knowledge is really, really limited, however.

How did the planets come into existence?

We have great difficulties in predicting the weather.

The prediction of a tsunami is even difficult after a massive earthquake.

But this is not something simple.

This is not that the planets go around the Sun. Most people will never have the time to do all of the measurements. However, for most it is a belief, a real safe belief.

However this is far more complex.

Furthermore, there are many scientists who do not agree with the Big Bang Theories. You could say that I believe those that disagree with the Big Bang Theories (which disagree with each other); you seem to agree with one of those theories of the Big Bang.

There are many differing scientific opinions on the origins of the universe.

In addition, I am not convinced that the laws of science and math and the human mind have the ability to even observe the ends of the universe.

How does space expand?

Moreover, there are many philosophers that teach that we cannot apprehend the entire physical phenomenon on our planet or in our universe.

Does math exist outside of our mind?

Is math created by our minds?

Does math run the universe?

Is math animated?

Is math inert?

This are really, really, really, really big questions.

Did the laws of the physical world that we can apprehend evolve? (The laws that govern life had to evolve.)

What is the nature of a physical law?

There are many, many, many more questions.

Our minds are really, really, really small.

Does the universe overlap itself?

You and I believe differently!
 
Furthermore, there are many scientists who do not agree with the Big Bang Theories. You could say that I believe those that disagree with the Big Bang Theories (which disagree with each other); you seem to agree with one of those theories of the Big Bang.
There are always going to be a few scientists who don’t agree with the dominant theories – and usually, these scientists are working to discover evidence that will overturn the dominant theories.

But that’s the beauty of science – it doesn’t matter what one person – scientist or not – “thinks” or “agrees” with. It matters what we can demonstrate based on the data we’ve collected.

No one believes relativity because Einstein said it. We accept relativity because it’s been investigated and the the evidence checks out. When a better theory comes along, and the evidence for it passes peer review, we’re going to accept that theory. And on and on it goes.

It’s not that you agree with these scientists and I agree with these scientists – it’s that I recognize that the peer-reviewed findings of the entire body of experts (not just a handful of scientists, but the body of experts) indicates that the Big Bang is the best theoretical model to explain the observed facts. You, on the other hand, don’t like the Big Bang theory – presumably because it doesn’t jive with the arbitrary beliefs you’ve accepted from an ancient book – so you are trying to declare that your position is on equal footing with mine. It’s not.

If you have a better theory, present your evidence, have it peer-reviewed, and then go claim your nobel prize.

Seriously, if you’re interested in learning more – like, for example, our informed conclusions about exactly how the planets very likely formed and the evidence that leads us to think this – go read some books. But spare us all the crazy rant where you try to make your beliefs look like they’re on equal footing with actual knowledge and actual science. It’s shameful.
You and I believe differently!
We sure do. I believe things based on facts and evidence. You believe things based on what makes you feel good, supported by the fact that you don’t know anything and feel justified substituting random beliefs for knowledge. Just shameful.
 
You, on the other hand, don’t like the Big Bang theory – presumably because it doesn’t jive with the arbitrary beliefs you’ve accepted from an ancient book – so you are trying to declare that your position is on equal footing with mine. It’s not.
Your presumption is false on three counts:
  1. The Big Bang theory is compatible with belief in Creation. In fact it supports the concept of development from a singularity.
  2. The beliefs in the Bible are not arbitrary but are based on the concept of He Who Is - the Source of existence.
  3. Religious belief is on a superior footing to scientific belief because it is based on our personal experience of the most important aspects of reality: truth, goodness, justice, freedom, beauty and love.
 
Your presumption is false on three counts:
  1. The Big Bang theory is compatible with belief in Creation. In fact it supports the concept of development from a singularity.
I agree that the Big Bang theory is compatible with a belief in Creation. However, there certainly are religious folks who object to the Big Bang on the grounds that they think it’s incompatible with their faith or that it’s on the same level as thinking a magic man wished everything into existence. I am assuming that the OP is one of these religious folks – if I am wrong, he is welcome to correct me.
  1. The beliefs in the Bible are not arbitrary but are based on the concept of He Who Is - the Source of existence.
So you claim.
  1. Religious belief is on a superior footing to scientific belief because it is based on our personal experience of the most important aspects of reality: truth, goodness, justice, freedom, beauty and love.
Sorry, buddy. Having a “personal experience” of something that you label “beauty and love,” or whatever, doesn’t give you more of an insight into what’s going on.

Experience, in and of itself, has no ability to tell you what’s going on – our knowledge of what’s going on is a rational construct built upon evidence. Now you can say that all evidence is experienced, but there are different kinds of experienced evidence. The kind that can be investigated and confirmed by multiple people is going to give you a much better picture of what’s going on than simple, direct “personal experience.”

An example: I have the “personal experience” of observing the sun at different points throughout the day, but I would be completely wrong to say that my “experience” gives me “superior footing” to say that the sun goes around the earth.

If you want to actually know what’s going on, nothing beats evidence-based inquiry.
 
Anti Theist

The vast majority of my belief that the Big Bang Theories are incomplete and scientific myth are philosophical. Actually, that is the only reason that I started this thread–the myth word was chosen because from a philosophical point of view, it is a myth. We as human beings are grappling with science and philosophy. The Big Bang transcends science and math. That has not been addressed, as far as I can tell in this tread.

I have listed several other reasons.

The very nature of math comes into question.

Some scientist believe that math runs the universe.

The very nature of our understanding of the laws of nature come into question.

The laws describe what happens, but that does not tell us the essence of the laws.

We do not know the essence of the laws.

Will the laws last for 15,000,000,000?

Do the laws run the universe?

Does mathematics run the laws of nature?

How long was this point of mass in existence before it became the Big Bang?

Did the physical laws exist then?

Which laws developed first?

These issue should be addressed in this thread–those are the kinds of issues that I question in the Big Bang Theories.

Also, there are other scientific thoeries out there that grapple with the beginnings of the universes.

How many universes exist now? How many have existed?

How are they related to this one?

The laws evolved.

As the different laws evolved or developed or unfolded, we do not know what came before them. One example is the laws that govern life. Before life, those laws did not exist.

How does space expand?

We as human beings are greatly limited as to what we can observe.

I do not believe we have seen the ends of the universe in any direction.

We only have five senses with which to observe physical being, there just might exist physical beings that we cannot observe. This is a huge unknown.

Also, does the universe circle back on itself?

There are hypothetical ideas in the Big Bang Theories that have not been discovered or observed. As far as I know, this issue has not been addressed.

I am not sure, but I don’t think any of the philosophical issues have been address.

I could be wrong, and I mean that.

It would be helpful if those philosophical science issues were explored.
 
Seriously, if you’re interested in learning more – like, for example, our informed conclusions about exactly how the planets very likely formed and the evidence that leads us to think this – go read some books. But spare us all the crazy rant where you try to make your beliefs look like they’re on equal footing with actual knowledge and actual science. It’s shameful.
We sure do. I believe things based on facts and evidence. You believe things based on what makes you feel good, supported by the fact that you don’t know anything and feel justified substituting random beliefs for knowledge. Just shameful.
AntiTheist

I too believe that the big bang theory is the most plausible model to explain the observed facts. But I would bet that beyond that one snippet of agreement, we run into a serious disagreement about what caused the big bang to happen. I have a simple answer, God. I have no evidence for my belief. So what do you believe caused the big bang and what evidence can you cite that makes your answer more superior to mine?

And while we’re at it, please reference a book that would allow me to learn more about: “… Exactly how the planets “very likely” formed and the evidence that leads us to think this…”. (side note: why the ambiguity is declaring dogmatically “exactly how”, then hedging you bet with the tentative “very likely”?)

I know your post was not directed at me, but its implication that one who believes in God is “substituting random beliefs for knowledge” extends to theists in general and that includes me.

Just out of curiosity:

Do you believe the universe is finite or infinite? What is the evidence for your belief? If the universe is finite, and I believe it is, what lies beyond the space the defines the boundary of the universe? Please don’t give me the Einstein solution that the universe is finite but unbounded, that presupposes a curvature of space, but the observed flatness of space would not allow that.

Do you believe the big bang theory’s supposition that galaxies are not moving through space, but rather they are receding because space is expanding? If this is by what mechanism does space “pushes” matter apart?

The problem that antitheists have in relying on science to dispel the belief in God is that, in keeping with the philosophy of logical positivism, science merely deals with the observations of how physical entities relate to one another without delving into the reason why things are the way they are. This can only be known by finding the nature of nature at the ground of reality. I predict that what science will find in spite of its opposition to the thought of God, is God. The big bang is only the beginning of science’s discovery of God!

Yppop
 
I agree that the Big Bang theory is compatible with a belief in Creation. However, there certainly are religious folks who object to the Big Bang on the grounds that they think it’s incompatible with their faith or that it’s on the same level as thinking a magic man wished everything into existence. I am assuming that the OP is one of these religious folks – if I am wrong, he is welcome to correct me.
The Big Bang theory is not a metaphysical explanation. It is a scientific account based on observation of physical events. It does not claim to explain the whole of reality. Only a fool would believe it is related to the nature, value and purpose of the mind.
The beliefs in the Bible are not arbitrary but are based on the concept of He Who Is - the Source of existence.
So you claim.

What is your source of existence? Thin air? Or do you take refuge in obscurity?
Religious belief is on a superior footing to scientific belief because it is based on our personal experience of the most important aspects of reality: truth, goodness, justice, freedom, beauty and love.
Sorry, buddy. Having a “personal experience” of something that you label “beauty and love,” or whatever, doesn’t give you more of an insight into what’s going on.

Sorry, buddy. Without having a personal experience you would be incapable of knowing or labelling anything! Our knowledge of our thoughts is the the basis of all our knowledge. We know that the physical world exists only as the result of inference from our perceptions.
.
… something that you label “beauty and love,” or whatever, doesn’t give you more of an insight into what’s going on.
It is ironic that you dismiss truth, goodness, justice, freedom, beauty and love as labels when they are the realities you cherish most and enable you to have insight into not only the physical world but the purpose of your life.
Experience, in and of itself, has no ability to tell you what’s going on – our knowledge of what’s going on is a rational construct built upon evidence.
Indeed. Our knowledge of what’s going on is a rational construct built upon the evidence of our own experience and nothing else. The only immediate and direct evidence you have is within your mind. There is no magical way in which you can get outside your mind into the physical world.
Now you can say that all evidence is experienced, but there are different kinds of experienced evidence. The kind that can be investigated and confirmed by multiple people is going to give you a much better picture of what’s going on than simple, direct “personal experience.”
The fact remains that the picture is derived from **inner **knowledge and not direct knowledge of the world. The primary reality for all of us remains within ourselves. It is far more valuable and important than external events.
An example: I have the “personal experience” of observing the sun at different points throughout the day, but I would be completely wrong to say that my “experience” gives me “superior footing” to say that the sun goes around the earth.
It is significant that your example is of a physical event. It tells us nothing about how we reason and conclude that the sun goes around the earth. That is an epistemological issue that is beyond the scope of science. You cannot find truth or the power of reason by looking through a microscope or telescope. The superior footing is not to be found in the world but within our mind.
If you want to actually know what’s going on, nothing beats evidence-based inquiry.
Certainly. Indirect evidence from without the mind is a supplement to direct evidence from within. What would you know without a mind? Precisely nothing… That is the miracle of our existence. It is an inescapable fact. We are conscious - not of the world but of our thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations, perceptions, fears, hopes, desires and decisions. We cannot understand what existence is but we can understand what it entails. We don’t have to prove we exist because it is absurd to think our experiences exist in a vacuum. The most economical and adequate explanation is that each of us is an individual, a self with an enduring identity, a person.

We can pretend the world doesn’t exist but if we try to pretend we don’t exist we finish up by contradicting ourselves. We forget ourselves when we are absorbed in thought but sooner or later we distinguish ourselves from what we are thinking about. Thought and feeling are at the very core of our being. External objects are peripheral. We all interpret the same physical environment differently but each one of us knows exactly what we are thinking and feeling.** That is the most important evidence of all.**

Physicalists reduce “why?” to “how?”.They attribute purposeful activity to that which is purposeless - without explaining how it has come about! Their explanation of reality overlooks the fact that their reasoning and explanation are purposeful. If reasoning has no goal in view it is going precisely nowhere… To reject purpose is to endow the past with supreme significance, to dismiss the future as irrelevant and be forced to live in the meaningless present…

For you everything occurs according to physical necessity - with consequences which are as inevitable as objects falling to the ground. A purpose has no reference to the future but is simply a physical function. So we only imagine we have control over ourselves. We are just cogs in an immense machine operating for no reason or purpose whatsoever - and achieving precisely nothing… 🙂
 
I know that this is a little facetious, but I enjoyed thinking it up.

I am using the glorious and honorable razor, and the beauty of simplicity.

I am using my own theoretical constructs, too; a construct, like some of the theoretical constructs in the Big Bang that have not been observed.

As far as I know, we have not observed the end of the universe(s). I postulate that there are massive structures of dense physical beings outside the observed universe. These beings are pulling our observable universe outward them. However, they, these massive beings of infinite size, are coming towards us. The end will be called The Grand Collision. It will happen in 777,777,777,777,777, 777, 777.777,777,777,777,777,777,777 years.

As soon as I can locate the infinite numbers that I need, I will work out the mathematics. I know that the infinite numbers exist because Chuck Norris counted them twice. He told me that himself, and his data confirms that there are not only an infinite number of numbers, but each species and every member of each species has infinite numbers. Yes, even zeros are infinite. This will help not only when I divide by zeros, but also when I multiple by zeros. Furthermore, he is going to release his finding that pi actually ends and the square root of 2 does have a terminus. Therefore we now have the empirical data for the extra-mental existence of not only numbers. Mr. Norris also informed me that Kepler was correct—cones, cubes, triangles, squares, and circles do exist, they are not merely definitions. I asked Mr. Norris, “What do they look like?” He smiled. I did not dare ask him any further questions. I, however, agreed with him; I have known several squares.

This is all in fun, honestly, please do not get mad.

Now to be serious, my fundamental point is that epistemology and metaphysics are necessary when addressing these issues. Also, the philosophy of science is a powerful tool.

Furthermore, the possible existence of spiritual beings, not to mention God cannot be excluded from search for truth and beauty. Also, there could even be physical beings we are not equipped to apprehend.

Well, I did not mean to offend or hurt any feelings by starting this thread. I did mean to start a discussion. I still believe that the very nature of science, the laws of nature, the nature of mathematics, and our ability to know must be address simultaneously. These topics are finite, but really, really, really, really big in quality.
 
I don’t have too much time to address this right now, but I wanted to answer this one point:
AntiTheist

I too believe that the big bang theory is the most plausible model to explain the observed facts. But I would bet that beyond that one snippet of agreement, we run into a serious disagreement about what caused the big bang to happen. I have a simple answer, God. I have no evidence for my belief. So what do you believe caused the big bang and what evidence can you cite that makes your answer more superior to mine?
I don’t know what caused the Big Bang, nor do I know if “cause” is the right word to use when time (maybe?) didn’t exist.

I also have no evidence, and on the basis of that lack of evidence, I say, “I don’t know.”

“I don’t know” is the correct answer here. What I’m objecting to is the practice of plugging in beliefs and pretending that they’re knowledge or that they’re legitimate “answers.”

More on this later.
 
Anti Theist

I listed a whole shipload of philosophical and scientific ideas.

The ideas that I listed are mostly principles, they imply a great deal.

Any ideas on those ideas?
 
Anybody

For discussion purposes: Kepler actually taught, I think, that cones, triangles, squares, circles and cubes exist outside of our mind. They have existence and are not merely definitions. Also, I think Copericus, Kepler, Galileo and maybe even Newton held the position that math actully ran the the natural physical laws.

What are your ideas on these fundamental points?

From what you know, how does this apply to the scientists of today?
 
Anybody

For discussion purposes: Kepler actually taught, I think, that cones, triangles, squares, circles and cubes exist outside of our mind. They have existence and are not merely definitions. Also, I think Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo and maybe even Newton held the position that math actually ran the the natural physical laws.

What are your ideas on these fundamental points?

From what you know, how does this apply to the scientists of today?
Quantities, sizes, ratios and shapes exist even if they have never been observed. The way we describe them is arbitrary but they are certainly not just concepts in the mind. Even if we don’t recognise the fact it remains true that most of us have** two spherical** eyes!
 
And while we’re at it, please reference a book that would allow me to learn more about: “… Exactly how the planets “very likely” formed and the evidence that leads us to think this…”. (side note: why the ambiguity is declaring dogmatically “exactly how”, then hedging you bet with the tentative “very likely”?)
To address the side note, I’m typing pretty quickly here and not always proofreading every post for rhetorical perfection. Obviously, science generates knowledge of what is most likely to be the case based on the best evidence at the time.

To address your actual question, I’m a little puzzle as to why you’re asking it. Are you not capable of doing research yourself? You might, for example, try Planet Formation: Theory, Observations, and Experiments, which provides a comprehensive look at the subject (and the bibliography can point you in the direction of many, many other works on the subject). Philip Armitage’s Astrophysics of Planet Formation might also provide a good deal of information.

It’s not like there’s a lack of material on the subject for a serious and interested student.
Do you believe the universe is finite or infinite?
Haven’t a clue. What I gather to be the prevailing scientific consensus is that the universe is finite and expanding. What it’s expanding “into” – or whether it’s creating space as it expands – is anyone’s guess.
If the universe is finite, and I believe it is, what lies beyond the space the defines the boundary of the universe?
Once again, I haven’t a clue. Maybe nothing – maybe all that exists is the universe. Maybe, if the multiverse hypothesis turns out to be true, there are other universes out there. Maybe Mount Olympus and the Greek gods exist outside the universe, and they’re waiting to toss us all into Tarterus for being heathens and not believing in them.

I really don’t know. What makes you believe one answer over another?

Jim Baur:
I listed a whole shipload of philosophical and scientific ideas.
The ideas that I listed are mostly principles, they imply a great deal.
All I see are a bunch of questions, things that we don’t know yet. They imply that we still have more to learn.

So what’s your point, exactly? What is it that you think these ideas imply?

I may be away for a few days – enjoy the weekend, all.
 
Anti Theist

My point is what you said, there are too many questions to which we do not have any answers. In fact, there are too many questions that we have not even asked.

There are parts of the Big Bang Theories that have not been observed but are theoretical constructs. They use theoretical math to solve their theoretical constructs. They do not even know the nature of math, nor the essence of the physical laws. Our math has done an excellent job describing the laws of nature. There is a big difference in saying I am 170 pounds, that tells me nothing of the nature of a human being.

It is impossible to imagine energy that lasts 15,000,000,000 years. The energy to produce human consciousness started 15,000,000,000 years is beyond me.

Hawkings and Einstein’s position about a divine being cannot be discarded lightly.

The issues are too big for science alone, that is why I addressed it in a philosophy page.

This a huge point: I have asked many actual scientists and mathematicans about the nature and relationship of math and the laws of science. I have asked many mathematican about the existence of math, many make the same quick joke about extra-mental nature of math. They have never did any research or serious thinking about the issue. That is fine. They do not have to do that. But the issue still exists. There are no uniform answers. Actually, the majority have not even addressed the actual nature of math in any detail. It is huge. Scientists do not address the nature of the physical laws, that is not their job.

I have been taught from many different sources: ask questions. There is a delightful book called “Yiddishe Kop, Jewish Problem Solving.” As any good rabbi would tell you, never stop asking questions. It is what we do not know that gives us light.

Popper was correct: our knowledge is incomplete. Locke and Kant and their schools are correct–there are great limits to our ability to know. We are limited in our apprehension to five senses and our rational ability.

It is the incomplete part that we make up. The made up parts are the myths.

The passage that I quote from Asimov sounds a little like a story in the first chapter of a book called Genesis. There was a light. There was a sea. There was unformed matter. There was then formed matter. Then there was a light in the day,and one in the night. Later there were plants and animals, then man. Many people call those chapters of Genesis myth. As the definition I gave from Webster, there are religious myths, philosophical myths, scientic myths and religious myths. It is the unknown parts that create the myth.

There are additional factors that any college student sees in her profession, pride, fame, money and the desire for power. These too need to be addressed. Scientists, philosopers and the religions are known for all of those and falsehood too. We are all rather prejudice to our own point of view too.

The possibility for mistake is so great I cannot even imagine how great.

In the year 3030, they will see the Big Bang, if it is found in their histroy books, as a scientific myth-- a good try, but still a myth. I hope they do not laugh too much at us.

Oh, I agree with you, I do not worry about clerical mistakes when I post. This is for enjoyment, not money, fame or grade.
 
I had to stop, and I never said the principle fallacies.

In the early 1900 they assumed that the physical laws that they observed actually existed outside of the human mind. They don’t. They are a picture we drew to help us understand the world in which we live. It is like a drawing of a tree. It is not real. It helps us to understand the tree, but it is not real. The picture does not explain the existence of the tree.

They also assumed that the were perfectly correct. They were not perfectly correct and the world knows it. They were and still are incomplete, and the world knows it.

They assumed that the current laws always existed, all the back to 15,000,000,000 years ago. That is the biggest part of the myth.

The laws didn’t exist even in the myth.

The laws would have had to evolve. In other words, the laws changed over the 15,000,000,000 years.

The laws, even in the myth, had to be different now then 15,000,000,000 years ago.

To add to the difficulties in this myth, each step in the evolution of the physical laws adds to the levels of difficulties. They are all shrouded in noumenon/noumena.

How many steps in the evolution is unknown!

As they evolved, in the myth, they had to be different and change.

The changes cannot be known.

It is a nice myth, but it is merely a myth.

Pythagorus, Plato, Augustine, Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler, Galileo and Newton held the opinion that mathematics exist outside of the human intellect. Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler and Galileo believed that math ran or animated the physical laws. They are incorrect. They are incorrect on both points. There is no empirical data to support either one of the just mentioned points.

I still do not have enough time to continue, family life calls me back to work.

God bless!!!
This is an interesting little argument.
The human imagination may describe reality, but it never defines it.
 
Darryl1958

This is a really, really, really longshot–are you the Wright Darryl, Angelicum.

Jim Baur
 
I don’t know if this has already been mentioned, but the Big Bang Theory was originally proposed by a Jesuit priest, Georges Le Maitre, and some other scientists resisted the theory at first because it seemed too supernatural (as opposed to the “steady-state” theory of the universe).

See, e.g., here.

That doesn’t establish anything about whether it’s an accurate theory, of course. It’s just something I’ve always found amusing.

.
 
As any good rabbi would tell you, never stop asking questions. It is what we do not know that gives us light.
I agree with this. But the surest way to get people to stop asking questions is to pretend like we have answers already. One of the problems with the “god did it” response is that it pretends to be knowledge. It’s not an answer at all, but it pretends to be.

Let’s be honest and say that we don’t know some things, rather than pretending that our ignorance means that a magic man done it.
It is the incomplete part that we make up. The made up parts are the myths.
You’re equivocating on the meaning of “myth” here. The Big Bang theory, like all theories, is the best explanation we have based on the best evidence we currently have. When we get more evidence, we will change the theory, but until then, it’s strong, has demonstrated predictive power, and will continue to be accepted.

To try to make that the equivalent of, “A magic man waved his hand and made everything – magic!” is the height of intellectual dishonesty, and it’s actually a little sickening to me.

If you want to be that dishonest, go right ahead, but it tells the rest of us a lot about your values.
In the year 3030, they will see the Big Bang, if it is found in their histroy books, as a scientific myth-- a good try, but still a myth. I hope they do not laugh too much at us.
Chances are good that the distant future will have access to so much more evidence that several of our theories may be overturned. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t accept them now, as the best explanations based on the best evidence, nor does it mean that we should declare them to be the equivalent of fables invented by a nomad tribe thousands of years ago.
 
To defend my position, the fast majority of my reasons for calling the Big Bang a myth are based on philosophy, metaphysical and epistemological, the ontic realities of math and the laws of nature, our limited knowledge of the size of the observable universe, our limited knowledge of all the energy, matter and beings in the universe, the limits of our five senses, the self-imposed limits of math and science (which are good and necessary), and Hawkings and Einstein acknowledge God’s role in the situation. If there are beings that are nobler than us humans, and if they were involved like Hawkings and Einstein hold, to discard them from the equations is big; it changes everything. If philosophy and science discard a possible real part of the equations, the entire process collapses. This transcends science, philosophy and religions of the world.

Furthermore, there are numerous assumptions in the entire process, that is, from the Big Bang to the development of conscious human life. There are many times the literature says “we believe,” “we assume,” “we have not observed,” “we do not know,” and the like. These parts are the fertile ground of myth. The word myth is not used in a pejorative, condescending or negative sense. It is an honest description of the limits of human abilities.

I used traditional definitions for myth, and it applies perfectly. I am correct. It is a myth. It is a myth on at least two accounts. It is a scientific myth. It is a philosophic myth. Moreover, there are several versions of the myth.

Furthermore, in a court of law, the case for the Big Bangs would be dismissed for lack of concrete evidence. The circumstantial evidence is too weak to make a rational judgment.

Actually, the only reasons I call it a myth are based on science and philosophy.

These issues should be addressed. I did not make this thread a religious thread. It is a thread based on philosophy.
 
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