Big Bang Myth

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It’s interesting to note that according to Big Bang theory the formation of galaxies is a later step in the “evolution” of the universe. So if we look to the oldest part of the universe, prior to galaxy formation, we should see no galaxies. And that is just what we see, i.e. no galaxies. Score one more for Big Bang theory.
 
Matter for contemplation of the cosmic jewel offered here without comment. Julian of Norwich, the great late 14th-century English mystic recorded 16 of her visions of Jesus.

[Jesus] she wrote,
“showed me a little thing, the quantity of a hazelnut, in the palm of my hand, and it was as round as a ball. I looked thereupon with the eye of my understanding and thought: What may this be? and it was answered generally thus: it is *all *that is made.”
 
Your assumptions are not very convincing. You stated that the Big Bang theory cannot be proven. That statement is misleading. While scientific theories that are so encompassing are not proven absolutely and subject to revision as new evidence accumulates, the Big Bang theory is well supported with scientific evidence.
I’m not trying to convince anyone. It just happens that not all scientists agree on this. At this moment I’m inclined to believe the other scientists.

Some scientists give their best shot at explaining what they see, which can be wrong, hence the revision as you say.
How do you explain red shift or the cosmic microwave background radiation? Apparently you must have an alternative interpretation of these factors or you have no explanation at all. I will assume here that you cannot explain the significance of either the red shift of CBR and so you expect people to think your non-explanation of cosmological facts is superior to scientific theory.
No, my explanation is not superior. I’m not trying to prove that I know it all, some scientists are the ones arrogant enough to say they know it all and that they are infallible.
Why do you think science is incapable in theory or in principle of proving the Big Bang? That is a very large assumption on your part, an assumption for which you have provided no justification.
I’d say it’s the scientists’ the very large assumption, not mine.
There is a historical close relation between scientists and hoaxes. Take global warming, Piltdown Man, Java Man, Beijing (Peking) Man, Lucy, Archeopteryx. There is ample evidence that some scientists have resorted to lies and deceit to further their assumptions.
There are degrees of certitude in science, and as more evidence supportive of the theory is acquired and better interpretations of that evidence are given, the theory increases in certainty. If anyone comes up with evidence the clearly counter-indicates a Big Bang origin of the universe, then a new theory is in order.
New theory or new assumption? The chicken came up with the theory that the sky was falling when the first drop of rain fell on its head. If an explanation (guess) has to be produced just for the sake of saying (guessing) anything, is that science?
Pope Pius XII was an enthusiastic supporter of Big Bang theory. What is it that you think you know about science that would suggest Pope Pius XII was not justified in his enthusiasm?
Theilard de Chardin was also a priest and an enthusiastic supporter of the Piltdown Man, which ended up being a hoax. The Pope was not inspired by the Holy Spirit when he said that. It was his personal opinion on that matter, right? Do you know how many times Italian popes have said that Team Italy was going to win the World Cup (soccer) and were wrong?
So far, there is no good counter-evidence to Big Bang theory that I know of. What model of the universe would you propose that accounts for what science does know about the cosmos? The steady-state theory is history. So, what say you, who are such the skeptic in this matter?
I personally don’t know and wont pretend to know it. But what some scientists say doesn’t convince me. As I said before, there are other scientists that have a different view about this but they are shunned and ridiculed by the establishment scientists. When the later group finally agrees to get together with the other group and discuss all this in an open debate and allow each side to say what it has to say, then we will be in a better position to come to an educated conclusion. In the meantime, I’ll wait for that day to come.
 
No, my explanation is not superior. I’m not trying to prove that I know it all, some scientists are the ones arrogant enough to say they know it all and that they are infallible.
This sounds like prejudice on your part. I don’t know any scientist who thinks he “knows it all” or believes himself to be “infallible”. Yet one finds arrogance in any profession because all profession involve humans. But then again aren’t you being a little arrogant yourself by dismissing science because humans can be arrogant? Besides if scientists are as arrogant as you say, that would put a check on a bad theory because any ego-centric scientist would be eager enough to make a name for himself by disproving a well-established theory. So, as you see, your point works both ways.
I’d say it’s the scientists’ the very large assumption, not mine.
There is a historical close relation between scientists and hoaxes. Take global warming, Piltdown Man, Java Man, Beijing (Peking) Man, Lucy, Archeopteryx. There is ample evidence that some scientists have resorted to lies and deceit to further their assumptions.
Your logic is flawed. Granted that some scientists are dishonest, it does not logically follow that Big Bang theory is questionable on those grounds.

And what are the supposed hoaxes with Java Man, Peking Man, Lucy, or Archeopteryx? (Leave out explaining “global warming” because that subject is a never ending debate).
New theory or new assumption? The chicken came up with the theory that the sky was falling when the first drop of rain fell on its head. If an explanation (guess) has to be produced just for the sake of saying (guessing) anything, is that science?
If a chicken offered any kind of explanation for rain, the scientific world would listen carefully, even if the chicken was just guessing.
Theilard de Chardin was also a priest and an enthusiastic supporter of the Piltdown Man, which ended up being a hoax. The Pope was not inspired by the Holy Spirit when he said that. It was his personal opinion on that matter, right? Do you know how many times Italian popes have said that Team Italy was going to win the World Cup (soccer) and were wrong?
No relevant reasons here for questioning Big Bang theory.
I personally don’t know and wont pretend to know it. But what some scientists say doesn’t convince me. As I said before, there are other scientists that have a different view about this but they are shunned and ridiculed by the establishment scientists. When the later group finally agrees to get together with the other group and discuss all this in an open debate and allow each side to say what it has to say, then we will be in a better position to come to an educated conclusion. In the meantime, I’ll wait for that day to come.
So what are the arguments of your unnamed scientists who question Big Bang theory? They wouldn’t all happen to be YECs would they?

It sounds like you reject Big Bang theory for non-scientific reasons, reasons you have not yet stated. Perhaps you should question your own beliefs first. I suspect your personal, non-scientific presumptions are what is causing you these illogical difficulties with good science.
 
It might be helpful, I believe, if the actual physics and math and philosophy were addressed.

I believe, I do not know, that there are a few points in the theory of the Big Bang that have not been observed. I honestly mean, I could really, really and easily be incorrect.

I think or believe, I do not know, if there are points in the Big Bang that have not been observed, it would be helpful if there are scientists who have researched those points to clarify for those of us who have not the time, ability, energy, background, et cetera.

Also, if there is a scientist or mathematican who has actually studied all the different positions of the Big Bangs to explain them to the lay persons, it would be of help.
 
I do not know, but I believe there are antinomies between the Jewish, Christian and Muslim beliefs and the Big Bang.

To mention one example: We believe that human beings are the reason God created the universe. In my opinion, common sense says that God did not create the universe 15,000,000,000 years ago and then 30,000 or 40,000 years ago humans became human. It seems a rather long time between starting the process and the climax of the process.
 
I see nothing wrong with the idea that God created everything by using a Big Bang type method.

Just because we are Catholic doesn’t mean we cannot accept scientific fact or even theories. If the Big Bang is fact, wouldn’t that just confirm God’s power and greatness? What else could create such power.

God has given us science so that we would understand his power to a greater extent and not rely on superstition to describe his works.
I wholeheartedly agree. God has enabled us to learn about how His creation works; the observations made by reputable scientists suggest that the Big Bang is the most likely method for the origin of the universe; this does not contradict the truth of God’s creative act.

It is superstitious and paranoid to assume that ALL scientists are Godless heathens. Let us not forget 1) that the originator of the theory was a Catholic priest, and 2) that this priest eventually served as President of the Pontifical Academy of Scientists and was named a prelate by Pope John XXIII. (source)

Peace,
Dante
 
I do not know, but I believe there are antinomies between the Jewish, Christian and Muslim beliefs and the Big Bang.

To mention one example: We believe that human beings are the reason God created the universe. In my opinion, common sense says that God did not create the universe 15,000,000,000 years ago and then 30,000 or 40,000 years ago humans became human. It seems a rather long time between starting the process and the climax of the process.
The humans, He saw, would need fuel, and materials to support themselves when their numbers increased significantly.
Oil had to be grown first, long before the dinosaurs existed, and it had to be gathered for milions of years to gather enough oil producing material for the humans to use; ditto with mineral deposits.
Of course He could have done it all at once, but without a logical reason for oil the inexplicable presence of oil would have driven His humans mad. As He wanted His humans to come to an appreciation and knowledge of Him in their own way.
🙂
 
We believe that human beings are the reason God created the universe. In my opinion, common sense says that God did not create the universe 15,000,000,000 years ago and then 30,000 or 40,000 years ago humans became human. It seems a rather long time between starting the process and the climax of the process.
Some Indigenous American peoples believe that the earth sits on top of a tall stack of turtles that stretches all the way down. In their opinion the Big Bang cannot have happened because it would knock over the stack of turtles.

Neither your opinion that the entire universe centers around Homo sapiens, nor the cosmogonic opinion of the turtle-stack believers, are in the slightest degree relevant to what cosmologists discuss today.

StAnastasia
 
The humans, He saw, would need fuel, and materials to support themselves when their numbers increased significantly.
Oil had to be grown first, long before the dinosaurs existed, and it had to be gathered for milions of years to gather enough oil producing material for the humans to use; ditto with mineral deposits.
Of course He could have done it all at once, but without a logical reason for oil the inexplicable presence of oil would have driven His humans mad. As He wanted His humans to come to an appreciation and knowledge of Him in their own way.
🙂
Do you really think the history of the universe centers around Homo sapiens? Isn’t that a tad arrogant?
 
Do you really think the history of the universe centers around Homo sapiens? Isn’t that a tad arrogant?
You could see it like that, I suppose. For an actually perfect creator with all knowledge it would be no trouble to give every creature every perfect benefit; from diatoms in wonderfully perfect tropical shallow seas 300 million years age - a perfect existance for them, to -]French nylons /-] - essential energy produced from that same oil for humans.
However I do recall that man was given a particular role in creation - to fill the earth and master it, neither my diatom nor my cat nor my dog was given that role in creation.
 
Einstein and Hawkings included in their discussions about these issues God.

How many other scientists that investigate these issues include God in the equations?
 
However I do recall that man was given a particular role in creation - to fill the earth and master it, neither my diatom nor my cat nor my dog was given that role in creation.
Sure, because humans wrote that! If dolphins had written genesis no doubt dolphins would see themselves as the pinnacle of creation.
 
Sure, because humans wrote that! If dolphins had written genesis no doubt dolphins would see themselves as the pinnacle of creation.
Humans? is it… begoras!..Would’nt the dolphins have to write what you read below?..😛
What did the -]humans /-] dolphins say… 21 And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth…

…26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. 27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. 28

And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it,

and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that

move upon the earth.

29 And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed upon the earth, and all trees that have in themselves seed of their own kind, to be your meat: 30 And to all beasts of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to all that move upon the earth, and wherein there is life, that they may have to feed upon. And it was so done.

26 “Let us make man to our image”… This image of God in man, is not in the body, but in the soul; which is a spiritual substance, endued with understanding and free will. God speaketh here in the plural number, to insinuate the plurality of persons in the Deity.

28 “Increase and multiply”… This is not a precept, as some Protestant controvertists would have it, but a blessing, rendering them fruitful; for God had said the same words to the fishes, and birds, (ver. 22) who were incapable of receiving a precept.

31 And God saw all the things that he had made, and they were very good. And the evening and morning were the sixth day.
 
I do not know, but I believe there are antinomies between the Jewish, Christian and Muslim beliefs and the Big Bang.

To mention one example: We believe that human beings are the reason God created the universe. In my opinion, common sense says that God did not create the universe 15,000,000,000 years ago and then 30,000 or 40,000 years ago humans became human. It seems a rather long time between starting the process and the climax of the process.
Remember Time is not an issue for God. Time is simply a restraint on the humanic vision. The difference in time only is large because of how we percieve it.
 
I do not know, but I believe there are antinomies between the Jewish, Christian and Muslim beliefs and the Big Bang.

To mention one example: We believe that human beings are the reason God created the universe. In my opinion, common sense says that God did not create the universe 15,000,000,000 years ago and then 30,000 or 40,000 years ago humans became human. It seems a rather long time between starting the process and the climax of the process.
Do you have a problem, as well, with the observed size of the universe, or even of the solar system?

Perhaps God made everything on such a grand scale of time and space to show us the incredible, uncontainable, unimaginable, infinite glory of Himself? Perhaps He did it in an attempt to counteract exactly the kind of thinking that you seem to be engaging in–putting God in a tiny little box of your own imagination, making God in your image, limiting Him to what you think He should have done and how you think He should have done it.

I see the vastness of the universe (in time and space) as an incredible act of love for us. It shows us how much God cares about us that He took so much time to craft such a wondrous place for us, an inexhaustible universe to explore and wonder at, a clear indication of His own glory.

To belittle that by denying it, and by calling into question our ability to come to know God even a little bit by studying His creation and using our gift of reason (the exercise of science), seems a terrible tragedy to me.
 
I see the vastness of the universe (in time and space) as an incredible act of love for us. It shows us how much God cares about us that He took so much time to craft such a wondrous place for us, an inexhaustible universe to explore and wonder at, a clear indication of His own glory.
It sounds – understandably – quite self-centered.
 
This sounds like prejudice on your part. I don’t know any scientist who thinks he “knows it all” or believes himself to be “infallible”. Yet one finds arrogance in any profession because all profession involve humans. But then again aren’t you being a little arrogant yourself by dismissing science because humans can be arrogant? Besides if scientists are as arrogant as you say, that would put a check on a bad theory because any ego-centric scientist would be eager enough to make a name for himself by disproving a well-established theory. So, as you see, your point works both ways.
You shouldn’t judge me without knowing why I think the way I think. Let me explain to you why the way I think is not prejudice.

I used to accept everything that scientists said in the field of “earth sciences” and others. I believed what they presented as truth, facts, realities. For over 30 years I took everything they said without doubting for a minute what they said. The internet allowed me to find out that not all scientists accepted the interpretation of the data given by established scientists, in fact there were scientists presenting other interpretations of the data. We know every coin has two faces, I had been watching just one side of the coin. Soon I started to read what others scientists were saying. I didn’t jump immediately to their side, it was a matter of years. I realized they were not in the news, nor in the scientific magazines, nor in the “so called” scientific channels. I started to wonder why.

Then the established scientists gave signs of distress because the other scientists were shaking their world. I could see it, and what really began to turn me away from the initial group is the reaction of scientist institutions, and scientists, against the “dissenter” scientists. It was the same way dissenters are treated in oppressed countries: censure them, shut them up, deny them the opportunity to present their case, ridicule them, etc, etc. Something was not right if scientists were using these tactics to keep the other side from expressing their ideas. Here we had the most “enlightened human beings of the world” (scientists) acting in the same manner and using the same tactics that dictators use in oppressed countries.

Perhaps the theories, the interpretations, the methods, the procedures, the data were flawed. You said it: “all profession involve humans”, and as humans they didn’t want someone else to show the world their flaws. Whatever their reasons, to me it didn’t look good, honest, fair. Maybe it’s the human inclination of rooting for the underdog, the thing is that the established scientists camp lost my respect and trust.
Your logic is flawed. Granted that some scientists are dishonest, it does not logically follow that Big Bang theory is questionable on those grounds.
Answered above.
And what are the supposed hoaxes with Java Man, Peking Man, Lucy, or Archeopteryx? (Leave out explaining “global warming” because that subject is a never ending debate).
They were presented as the missing link and were believed to be so for decades until proved hoaxes. They were lies all the way, not honest mistakes but lies.

The Piltdown Man was a fabrication: they “found” a chimpanzee jaw and a human tooth that fitted in the chimpanzee jaw. For 40 years it was the proof of transition from ape to man, only to be rejected when, using more powerful microscopes, it was clearly seen that the tooth had been tampered with to make it fit the jaw. Besides, paint was used to give the jaw and tooth the appearance of aging.

Lucy was the bones from two different species presented as one. An illustrator painted the rest of the “humanoid” animal, a figment of the imagination of some scientist who coached the illustrator. Some bones were found 1,000 miles away from each other and presented, an accepted!!! as from the same animal.

The Nebraska Man (I didn’t mention him in my post) was made up of a single tooth! Again they presented the illustrated “humanoid” creature as the missing link, half man, half primate, based on a tooth! Eventually the tooth was identified as that of a pig extinct in North America but very alive in South America.
If a chicken offered any kind of explanation for rain, the scientific world would listen carefully, even if the chicken was just guessing.
Wonder why the “establishment” of scientists would listen to a chicken, yet they can’t listen carefully to the scientists on the other side of the coin.
No relevant reasons here for questioning Big Bang theory.
You mentioned the Pope, I addressed the Pope. My comment was that what he said was his personal view, he was not speaking “Ex Cathedra”. I’m not under obligation to believe what he believed regarding the BBt.
So what are the arguments of your unnamed scientists who question Big Bang theory? They wouldn’t all happen to be YECs would they?
Search the internet and you’ll find them, there are a lot of scientists that don’t agree with the BBt, YECs and no-YECs.
It sounds like you reject Big Bang theory for non-scientific reasons, reasons you have not yet stated. Perhaps you should question your own beliefs first. I suspect your personal, non-scientific presumptions are what is causing you these illogical difficulties with good science.
My assumptions are based on the explanations and interpretations given by other scientists, which by the way are logic and good science too.
 
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